2022 Sovereign design revealed?

[LawrenceChard]

32 minutes ago, Allgoldcoins said:

A little more information on the Platinum Jubilee sovereign and a little update on the Great Engravers coin.

The release date is in the middle of November - The prices I think look the same to me as last years 2021 coins. - The design is based on my new updated concept image, slightly reworked by Timothy Noad. I am not aware of any change to the obverse portrait. These images are as close as I can post and come from the 2008 pound coin.

(I have heard Great Engravers now due early December)

 

 

It sounds like you have seen information which is subject to embargo, and you also mentioned recently that the 2022 sovereign design was under embargo.

While I can understand that it is tempting to leak a few hints, this can betray the trust which is implicit in the privileged receipt of embargoed information.

We, at @ChardsCoinandBullionDealer, act ethically and responsibly to ensure we do not breach embargo, deliberately or accidentally.

As it happens, your "new updated concept image" is very similar to one of about 5 possible designs that we published based on the Privy Council notice published in the public domain months ago, without the benefit of any privileged information:

On a very strict interpretation, even revealing that a design is under embargo risks breaking the embargo by revealing the fact that a release is imminent.

Stating that "The release date is in the middle of November - The prices I think look the same to me as last years 2021 coins." appears to be a clear admission that you are breaching the embargo by publishing privileged information.

 

[Allgoldcoins]

17 minutes ago, LawrenceChard said:

It sounds like you have seen information which is subject to embargo, and you also mentioned recently that the 2022 sovereign design was under embargo.

While I can understand that it is tempting to leak a few hints, this can betray the trust which is implicit in the privileged receipt of embargoed information.

We, at @ChardsCoinandBullionDealer, act ethically and responsibly to ensure we do not breach embargo, deliberately or accidentally.

As it happens, your "new updated concept image" is very similar to one of about 5 possible designs that we published based on the Privy Council notice published in the public domain months ago, without the benefit of any privileged information:

On a very strict interpretation, even revealing that a design is under embargo risks breaking the embargo by revealing the fact that a release is imminent.

Stating that "The release date is in the middle of November - The prices I think look the same to me as last years 2021 coins." appears to be a clear admission that you are breaching the embargo by publishing privileged information.

 

I have been careful not to break any embargo, my image is simply a concept image based on the 2008 one pound coin which is in the public domain. The Royal Mint have stated that the design is based on the royal coat of arms. Your 2 designs above are similar to our designs shown as concept images.

To avoid any issue or conflict I will not be making any further comment on the 2022 sovereign prior to release..

 

 

Edited October 16, 2021 by Allgoldcoins

[magpie79]

14 minutes ago, LawrenceChard said:

It sounds like you have seen information which is subject to embargo, and you also mentioned recently that the 2022 sovereign design was under embargo.

While I can understand that it is tempting to leak a few hints, this can betray the trust which is implicit in the privileged receipt of embargoed information.

We, at @ChardsCoinandBullionDealer, act ethically and responsibly to ensure we do not breach embargo, deliberately or accidentally.

As it happens, your "new updated concept image" is very similar to one of about 5 possible designs that we published based on the Privy Council notice published in the public domain months ago, without the benefit of any privileged information:

On a very strict interpretation, even revealing that a design is under embargo risks breaking the embargo by revealing the fact that a release is imminent.

Stating that "The release date is in the middle of November - The prices I think look the same to me as last years 2021 coins." appears to be a clear admission that you are breaching the embargo by publishing privileged information.

 

Appreciate your opinion and professionalism but surely you could of done this via private messaging 

seems to me your waving your balls around for everyone to see 

[LawrenceChard]

11 minutes ago, Allgoldcoins said:

I have been careful not to break any embargo, my image is simply a concept image based on the 2008 one pound coin which is in the public domain. The Royal Mint have stated that the design is based on the royal coat of arms. Your 2 designs above are similar to our designs shown as concept images.

 

 

This:

"A little more information on the Platinum Jubilee sovereign and a little update on the Great Engravers coin"...

and...

"The release date is in the middle of November - The prices I think look the same to me as last years 2021 coins."

suggest very strongly that you are using and leaking privileged information.

 

[magpie79]

4 minutes ago, LawrenceChard said:

This:

"A little more information on the Platinum Jubilee sovereign and a little update on the Great Engravers coin"...

and...

"The release date is in the middle of November - The prices I think look the same to me as last years 2021 coins."

suggest very strongly that you are using and leaking privileged information.

 

Seems like a educated guess to me and no secret to anyone on this thread 

I think you have let the cat out of the bag by saying his leaked privileged information 

 

Edited October 16, 2021 by magpie79

[LawrenceChard]

7 minutes ago, magpie79 said:

Appreciate your opinion and professionalism but surely you could of done this via private messaging 

seems to me your waving your balls around for everyone to see 

"Appreciate your opinion and professionalism but surely you could of done this via private messaging "

Thnak you.

"seems to me your waving your balls around for everyone to see"

Having been a trusted recipient of privileged embargoed information many times in the past, and been very careful to treat the position and the information with great care, I am also aware that there are some fellow dealers who do not observe this trust and privilege with the same care.

Leaking is a betrayal of trust, and also places other fellow dealers under suspicion that they may have been a source of such leak.

This is not ball waving, it is a statement of fact.

Those who place confidential information into the public domain without valid reason, should expect to receive public comment rather than a private message.

It rather sounds as though you have some close connection with Allgold for you to jump to their defence, and criticise me for pointing out valid facts and opinions.

This is not "ball-waving" on my part as you put it.

[Smiler999]

To be honest, its a Sovereign here we're talking about not state secrets so I don't see what the big embargo is or the excitement because someone is teasing with what it will look like...

Get a grip

[richatthecroft]

38 minutes ago, LawrenceChard said:

This:

"A little more information on the Platinum Jubilee sovereign and a little update on the Great Engravers coin"...

and...

"The release date is in the middle of November - The prices I think look the same to me as last years 2021 coins."

suggest very strongly that you are using and leaking privileged information.

 

This reminds me of a classic comedy sketch

 

[Zhorro]

On 29/06/2021 at 08:37, Zhorro said:

The obvious coat of arms to use would be the one that we saw on the 1983 Pound coin - with the words "ONE POUND" replaced with "2022"

Before everyone gets too worked up about the possible leaking of the design, I would like to point out my post of 29th June in which I suggested the reverse design of the 1983 "ONE POUND" coin but with the 2022 date added!

Regarding the date of issue, last year I bought my 2021 proof sovereign on 9th November (I think this was the day it was released), so surely the betting for this year's release date is either Monday 8th November, or Monday 15th November?

Why the Royal Mint keeps its release dates secret is baffling - it is almost as if it does not want to sell its coins!!  The US mint has a web page detailing its release dates for the whole year along with the title of the releases.  The notion you have to check in to the Royal Mint website at 8.45am every day to see if it is releasing something is bizarre. 

[Zhorro]

9 hours ago, MJCOIN said:

Nice.

Do you now if there will be any Struck on the Day versions?

Surely there will be a SOTD either on 6th February (Accession) or in June on the Queen's offical birthday when there will be a two day Bank Holiday (to add to the weekend).

[Fivepoundfred]

I did ask the Royal mint about their high security no leak policy on new releases and the answer given was to avoid " unfair competition " - whatever that means ?

There could be many interpretations for this statement but i suspect in many cases it actually creates " unfair competition " rather than resolving it !

[Cornishfarmer]

Not really worried what it looks like but will the bullion be the same design as the proof?

[magpie79]

12 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

"Appreciate your opinion and professionalism but surely you could of done this via private messaging "

Thnak you.

"seems to me your waving your balls around for everyone to see"

Having been a trusted recipient of privileged embargoed information many times in the past, and been very careful to treat the position and the information with great care, I am also aware that there are some fellow dealers who do not observe this trust and privilege with the same care.

Leaking is a betrayal of trust, and also places other fellow dealers under suspicion that they may have been a source of such leak.

This is not ball waving, it is a statement of fact.

Those who place confidential information into the public domain without valid reason, should expect to receive public comment rather than a private message.

It rather sounds as though you have some close connection with Allgold for you to jump to their defence, and criticise me for pointing out valid facts and opinions.

This is not "ball-waving" on my part as you put it.

Completely understand there is a code of honour amongst dealers and people connected to the mint in one way or another. I also respect your integrity on this. 

I have no connection with said member other than they are a fellow member of the forum.

I made my response purely on the fact I disagreed with what seemed to be an attempt at a name and shame (when really what was said was of no surprise to no one)  

Me pitching in all seems a bit pointless now and probably just adding weight to your accusations. You are both dealers, and it looks like I've got caught up in some sort of crossfire between you both.

I wish you all a good day

[LawrenceChard]

3 hours ago, Zhorro said:

Before everyone gets too worked up about the possible leaking of the design, I would like to point out my post of 29th June in which I suggested the reverse design of the 1983 "ONE POUND" coin but with the 2022 date added!

Regarding the date of issue, last year I bought my 2021 proof sovereign on 9th November (I think this was the day it was released), so surely the betting for this year's release date is either Monday 8th November, or Monday 15th November?

Why the Royal Mint keeps its release dates secret is baffling - it is almost as if it does not want to sell its coins!!  The US mint has a web page detailing its release dates for the whole year along with the title of the releases.  The notion you have to check in to the Royal Mint website at 8.45am every day to see if it is releasing something is bizarre. 

I have got a feeling that I remember your post about the 1983 pound coin. 

I thought the RM had also issued a gold proof version, but perhaps not, as I can't quickly find a reference to one, in which case, they missed a trick there!

Good guesses and reasoning for probably release dates, and perfectly valid to publish your thoughts about it.

I think the US Mint is happy to supply most of its collector demand direct, and because the USA is populous, there is a big potential customer base, which assists in creating an efficient distribution system. It possibly misses out on "foreign" markets, but as it has such a big domestic market, it probably does not care too much, and this is probably a realistic approach, and a sound commercial policy. Also, as the USA is so big geographically, there exists a strong mail order supply tradition.

The British Royal Mint, in contrast a much smaller potential domestic market. The UK population is about 67 million, whereas the US has about 330 million; about 5 times greater, plus also ready access to the Canadian market.

Since the Royal Mint started to produce and market collector coins in 1970, I believe it has had a dichotomy, in that it would like to control the UK market for collector coins, but also needs to supplement this via an active dealer market served by local coin shops, and by numerous local coin fairs. It probably also needs international demand to ensure it can manufacture in sufficient volume to function efficiently and profitably.

For many of the past 50+ years, it has supplied the UK market direct, and also via a number of distributors. although I am aware that the relationship between the Mint and its distributors has not always been cordial. I suspect that some of this is a lack or long term vision and policy at the Mint. When there is a new deputy master or marketing manager, there seems to be a shift in policy which is not openly published. This almost certainly accounts for some dissatisfaction on the part of distributors. Although much of this is known by many dealers, it is not often aired publicly, so is not common knowledge. Clearly is you are a Royal Mint UK distributor, and your main supplier has an absolute monopoly over the design and manufacture of your products, it would place you in a precarious position regarding continuity and future supplies.

As the Royal Mint needs international distribution, it supplies a number of international coin wholesalers and distributors. Often it willl have restrictive terms and conditions, as I suspect it does not want its exports to flow back it the UK market as "grey imports", competing with its own near dominance of the UK market.

To be able to supply distributors, it needs to be able to supply them with some advance information. Some of this may be well in advance, probably asking larger distributors what they would like to see in future designs, and variations. Closer to issue date, the Mint will want to estimate demand. It can and does do this in a number of ways. Pre-registration of interest from collectors is one method we have been seeing more of recently, and I think the RM used to do highly selective mailshots to some of its customers, and the main reason was to estimate demand. 

When distributors receive advance information, it is peprfectly understandable that this is a privilege, and is done in confidence. Distributors, in turn, want to know how many they are likely to sell, and therefore share some of the embargoed information with dealers, on the understanding that the dealer will not disclose or leak this information. Most dealers and distributors realise that they should act ethically, and not be tempted to leak the information they have been given access to. Mainly, this works well, but there will always be some who are tempted to seek some advantage or kudos. This is short-sighted, and done mainly by smaller dealers. Leaks often cannot be easily traced, and they create suspicion, doubt, and difficulties for all participants. 

The lead or notice time for different issues differs, from between a few days, and a few weeks.

It is natural that the Royal Mint wish to maintain a high degree of control over publication or release dates. The can command the attention of the UK, and world media when announcing a new coin design and release. If this information was already common knowledge, through leaks, it would diminish and dilute the desire of the media to co-operate in this free publicity.

Similar considerations apply, but in different ways, to bullion issues.

You do have a good, and perfectly valid, point though. It would probably be good practice if the Royal Mint did publish a release calendar in advance. To be fair to the Mint, this would probably cause a few problems of its own. Now, if the Royal Mint became a TSF sponsor and member, we might get a response and insight from them. 🙂

 

 

[LawrenceChard]

13 minutes ago, magpie79 said:

Completely understand there is a code of honour amongst dealers and people connected to the mint in one way or another. I also respect your integrity on this. 

I have no connection with said member other than they are a fellow member of the forum.

I made my response purely on the fact I disagreed with what seemed to be an attempt at a name and shame (when really what was said was of no surprise to no one)  

Me pitching in all seems a bit pointless now and probably just adding weight to your accusations. You are both dealers, and it looks like I've got caught up in some sort of crossfire between you both.

I wish you all a good day

Thank you for clarifying your position on this.

Many dealers do follow an unwritten code of honour, but it is not universal.

When embargoed information is supplied, it is often accompanied by a statement that it is supplied in confidence. On the first occasion between any two participants, this would normally be agreed, and thereafter understood. Trust systems exist for a purpose. 

I, on my own behalf and that of my company, did share some advance knowledge of this issue. I was not the first, as @westminstrel created this thread. My contribution was a mixture of the published facts, combined with some knowledge and research on known variations and interpretations of the proposed design, some guesswork, and some creative imagination these on coins. Some of this may possibly annoy or frustrate the Mint, but this was all done in a fair way. Many TSF members were and are, understandably interested, and I was happy to join in with my contributions. We also created advance product pages on our website, and on a more detailed "blog" page discussing the subject. I have mentioned my sources a few times, and have stated that if and when I/we  received embargoed information, we would only make further comment with great caution, and would respect the confidence and trust expected of us.

When AllGold published what seemed (and  still does seem) to be confidential and privileged information, I was disappointed at his / their lack of professionalism. I have not yet compared his "concept" design with the embargoed design, and if I did, I would not comment on any similarity while any embargo was still in place. My comments were not solely based on his image, but the other information at which he strongly hinted. In the absence of any other explanation, I can and do only assume that this was from sight or knowledge of the privileged, embargoed, information. It astounded me that any dealer who valued his reputation should stoop to such a clear and obvious breach of trust.

This was, and still is, my firm opinion, and I was entitled to publish my thoughts on this, which I believe are in the public interest.

I am aware that there may, or will, be a few who think that negative criticism of a fellow dealer or competitor should not happen. I agree that it would be better if the need or opportunity for it did not exist.

You of course were entitled to express your opinion, and I am happy it gave me the opportunity to clarify my views and action.

Don't worry about the crossfire, and do have a good day yourself.   🙂                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    

[Britannia47]

richatthecroft. Thank-you for lightning the mood with Dads Army. Very funny!

[Foster88]

11 hours ago, Zhorro said:

Surely there will be a SOTD either on 6th February (Accession) or in June on the Queen's offical birthday when there will be a two day Bank Holiday (to add to the weekend).

We can probably safely say that both of those dates will be SOTD sovereigns released. We all know how RM like to milk it at times.

[CollectorNo1]

15 minutes ago, Foster88 said:

We can probably safely say that both of those dates will be SOTD sovereigns released. We all know how RM like to milk it at times.

At times????????🤣🤣 they have their own dairy farm..🥛🥛🥛🥛🥛🥛😄

[LawrenceChard]

41 minutes ago, Foster88 said:

We can probably safely say that both of those dates will be SOTD sovereigns released. We all know how RM like to milk it at times.

Not more milk! 😎

[TeaTime]

Surely the best way to judge demand for a coin is to let the public see the design beforehand. I'm not sure how a dealer can estimate the potential demand without showing the design to their customers and recording their opinions ..

I believe the RM keep designs secret until the day of release in the hope of a buying frenzy from people who otherwise would not bother, given time to scrutinise the coin.

 

[CollectorNo1]

Here is an out of the box thought!!!! Why don't we all wait and see on the day what the design will be? A couple of days after the release and the lucky ones who aquire this sovreign it will be history......and we will all  have forgotten about it and start focusing and commenting on the release of the Gothic Crown....Chill out people...after the Gothic there will be something else we will all go mad over..its the nature of coin collectors...it goes on and on and on.....RELAX.....This is going to be the future of new releases...we get them or we don't...know need for the stress unless you choose to do so..my humble opinion..Good luck to you all..😉😉😉🙂🙂🙂🙂

[BiigT]

Apologies if this has been covered, but is it pure luck whether you buy one or not? How does it actually work on the day of release, is it just a case of hitting refresh, adding to the basket and trying to check out on record time, hoping that they will honour your order? 

I'm keen, but just wanted to know the process 

[James32]

8 minutes ago, CollectorNo1 said:

Here is an out of the box thought!!!! Why don't we all wait and see on the day what the design will be? A couple of days after the release and the lucky ones who aquire this sovreign it will be history......and we will all  have forgotten about it and start focusing and commenting on the release of the Gothic Crown....Chill out people...after the Gothic there will be something else we will all go mad over..its the nature of coin collectors...it goes on and on and on.....RELAX.....This is going to be the future of new releases...we get them or we don't...know need for the stress unless you choose to do so..my humble opinion..Good luck to you all..😉😉😉🙂🙂🙂🙂

 As a not so wise man once said "now where's the fun in that" 😁 

[James32]

31 minutes ago, BiigT said:

Apologies if this has been covered, but is it pure luck whether you buy one or not? How does it actually work on the day of release, is it just a case of hitting refresh, adding to the basket and trying to check out on record time, hoping that they will honour your order? 

I'm keen, but just wanted to know the process 

Well I can only refer to my recent ordeal (Tudor beast panther) and I'd say your pretty much bang on. I was thrown out more times that a leprechaun at the funfair, then I just casually tried hours later with no expectation and surprise surprise one appeared. Then they sold out except they didn't as they reappeared hours later and as late as yesterday were still available??? So how they run their inventory or website I will never know.

Edited October 17, 2021 by James32

[GoldStatue]

55 minutes ago, TeaTime said:

Surely the best way to judge demand for a coin is to let the public see the design beforehand. I'm not sure how a dealer can estimate the potential demand without showing the design to their customers and recording their opinions ..

I believe the RM keep designs secret until the day of release in the hope of a buying frenzy from people who otherwise would not bother, given time to scrutinise the coin.

 

I think the dealers can determine how many they're going to buy off the RM without the general public knowing the design. They have all their sales records and budgets and own thoughts about the costs and design to go off to make their decisions.

I just think at the moment whatever the RM release to do with special reverse sovereigns/great engravers/Britannias will sell out in record time, so it's a bit of a futile exercise to hold back the design from the public in the current market climate.