First Charles III portrait coins

[Paul]

16 minutes ago, GoldDiggerDave said:

Those won't be from the AM, it helps making relationships with a few dealers it's taken me years to build up contacts.      Many collectors do nothing to help themselves and just want to complain or feel hard done by  when others have put in the hard work and hard cash over the years. 

^^^^^^^ 100%correct what this gentleman said 

[Chrisplym]

I do like the design of the 50p and will be buying depending upon mintage. I will give the others a miss as I agree with others that there appears to be very little effort that has gone into the designs and they look rushed.

[westminstrel]

5 hours ago, GoldDiggerDave said:

I clocked that today.........

£2,900 for a £5BU sovereign

£1,280 for the Piedfort 2022 proof sovereign 

£1,195 for a Gold Proof 50p

😳

That is insane! Gold hasn’t gone up that much has it? What’s the justification for this increase?

[GoldDiggerDave]

@westminstrel £1,195 for a Gold proof 50p is insane. If it’s not tiny mintages I’m bailing tomorrow.  
 

The 50p I like but it’s equally a clumsy design fitting a 4 sided design into a 7 sided coin makes it far from symmetrical, the bottom two Shields run out of parallel to the sides of the coin.

Why they did not just make this as a coronation crown as the did in 1953 is silly, however the 50p is the largest circulation coin we have so they’ve simply bodged the design to make it work.

 

 

 

 

[Alz111]

Can’t really wait for tomorrow 

definitely will be going for the 50p gold and silver depending on the mintage, I will expect thousands in the queue but let’s see what happens.

I’ll be on two browsers which has helped me previously getting coins, I’ve also emailed my account manager and she has said I will update you on Monday regarding the coins. 
 

[AurumArgenti]

I'm probably going to keep my powder dry for the sovereign. We will see tomorrow. 

[Paul]

May be of interest to some 

Spot on bookface - may be of interest to some here

 

 Credit : Greg Spink  

 

‘The most dramatic political statement on the nation’s coinage since Magna Carta’   

 

Most of us will by now have spent a moment studying the new coin designs proposed by the Royal Mint for His Majesty the King.

The manner by which this news was disseminated was truly unprecedented to say the least, but very much a reflection of our modern digital age. As the news slowly trickled out via social media posts at midnight into Friday 30 September 2022, few at first noticed the quiet, but very radical shift in the titles accompanying the otherwise admirable effigy of our new monarch.

 

Since recorded Kingship came to our shores after the Caesarean incursions of 55 and 54 BC, the primates of this country have style themselves invariably in vulgate latin. Whether it be ‘Commios Rex’ of the Atrebates in the western Thames basin, or 'Cunobelinus Rex Britannorum' defending the island against Emperor Claudius a century later.

The position thereby loans itself as much to a language as it does to the very consent over the people which it subjects to rule.

 

Surely one may be thinking, what have the Romans ever really done for us besides an infuriating latin curriculum? When one should really be asking, what happened to our coinage during the ‘Dark Ages’ and defensive last stand of Alfred, King of Wessex? When Eadbald of Kent struck off his first self-titled coinage in the 610s, or when Paulinus preached christianity at York in the decades following, they both championed Latin, all in spite of a populace conversing in regional dialects of early-English and runic script.

 

When Heaberht and Ecgberht followed a century later at Canterbury, and Offa expanded the Mercian territories in the Midlands, and when Alfred recaptured London from Guthrum’s hordes in the 880s, and his grandson Athelstan regained York in the 920s, their style was always Latin. Even the Viking occupiers of Jorvik produced specie entitled CNVT REX and MIRABILIA FECIT - so deep was the acknowledgement and sentiment of the Latin language to the identity of English leadership and as a local numismatic staple. Of course there have been exceptions amongst our Scandinavian ruling interlopers, particularly after the arrival of the Hiberno-Norse scion of Anlaf Sihtriccson.

 

The brief use of the old norse CVNVNC (Konungr) interchangeably with REX would however disappear with Eric ‘Blood-Axe’ in AD 954. When the opportunity of Viking rule returned after the removal of the ‘Unready’ Aethelred in 1016, CNVT REX ANGLORVM emblazoned the money - neither tide waited, not the coinage custom changed, for him it seemed.

 

When the ‘Northmen’ arrived at Hastings in October 1066, the fateful flight of a single arrow would come to impact the course of Britannia’s destiny, as well as her money. An awkward combination of the Old English letter ‘wynn’ with an awkward new Royal name ‘William’. Numismatists ever since have been bemused to own a coin of the Conqueror entitled PILLELMVS REX - no Guillaume ‘le Batard’ in sight! However like his vanquished foe, both Harold and William opted for ‘PAX’ type designs on their coinage - a simple appeal for peace. A plea that would fall on the deaf ears of a nation, when his fourth son Henry Beauclerc left only a daughter to inherit his throne in 1135. The Succession to the Crown Act 2013 eradicated primogeniture, but came several centuries too late to stop the pretensions of ‘Empress Maud’s’ cousin Stephen of Blois. For two decades, civil war scourged the land as ‘the Anarchy’ played out across the coinage as much as it did the countryside. The evolution of Stephen’s name from ‘Stiefne’ to ‘Stefanus’ on his specie is as damascene, as his original claim to the throne was obscene. It would also be the last time English coinage bore a non-latin name for its ruler, that is until now.

 

Through an unbroken chain of Henricus, Edwardus, Ricardus, Maria, Jacobus, Carolus, Gulielmus, Anna and Georgius, the latin terminology has passed unblemished through thirty-six more dutiful holders, as the Crown has passed from Lancaster, to York, to the Welsh Tudors, Scottish Stuarts, Dutch House of Orange, German Hanoverians and back again to the self-styled English ‘Windsors’.

 

Only Victoria and the two Elizabeths have been unable to change their name, on simple account of no translation being afforded in the old tongue. The interregnum of the Commonwealth, provides us a final break with tradition, as the coinage appeared in all English naming for a brief decade in the 17th Century, only to be swiftly removed after the Restoration of King Charles II in 1660.

 

The veneer of British Monarchy therefore is as deeply wedded to its thousand-year guarding of latin exceptionalism as it is to the pomp and pageantry of Trooping the Colour or the most modern addition of the feted ‘balcony appearance’.

 

Latin and Kingship have therefore endured, and been upheld, through Magna Carta, the Wars of the Roses, two Great Plagues, the Great Fire, the Orange Revolution, Napoleon, Emancipation, two World Wars, and the Space Race, and yet our shared love for the Royal family could never be measured more strongly than at present. Unlike King John however, whose coinage continued to bear the name of his elder brother Richard the Lionheart and father King Henry II, the confirmation of release of new currency issues of King Charles on 3 October 2022 ends any possibility of a legacy-championing posthumous coining of the Queen’s specie until the close of December.

 

Instead for the first time since 1820, Britain is faced with the idea of two reigning monarchs appearing on coinage in a single calendar year, breaking a traditional precedent of passive mourning observed since 1830, and respected by every other acceding Windsor. One cannot help but draw alternative conclusions when Christmas is only ten weeks away.

 

The ability to weather change is as much about leadership as it is recognition.

 

As her late Majesty, Elizabeth the Magnolious, identified - ‘to be seen is to be believed'. In 2002, at her Golden Jubilee, she further observed: ‘the management of change is an ever expanding discipline’, to embrace it ‘defines our future’. This she achieved most notably in 1971 with the transition from pounds, shillings and pence to Decimal currency, but even still her titles and latin endured, a reflection of tradition as much an admission that Britain and her Commonwealth were unified by much more than a shared English language or modern history, but by a supra-national cultural European relationship that stretches back through pre-history and unifies all peoples again under a transatlantic decimalised currency system. A dead language, latin most certainly is not!

 

When once calendar dates in arabic numerals were deemed to be too radical to be displayed on the Tudor coinage, we have since added new titles recording the Monarch’s Supreme Governorship of the Churches of England and Scotland, dispensed with historic claims to lands in France and Ireland, and rightfully relinquished Imperial overlordship of India and Pakistan, and even ‘of all Britons’ - the BRITT OMN title finally disappearing from coins in 1954.

 

Today however we are faced by a new coinage bearing the demonstrably incorrect ‘CHARLES III D G REX F D’. An unsuitable corruption befitting only the hapless King Stephen - the English and Latin wedded in unhappy union for the supposed intention of additional clarity. As witnessed at St. James’s Palace on 10 September 2022, the new King paused before adding an ‘R’ to his signature - an indication of the very moment CHARLES R was signed into the annals of British history for the first time since 1685.

 

Then we heard the King’s proclamation - 'Defender of the Faith, and recognisant of all faiths' - we had our FID DEF; all that remained was the bestowal of Kingship ‘By the Grace of God’. Back in 1849, the omission of DEI GRATIA from the coinage caused an unholy crisis that prompted an entire recall and reissue, today we are faced with a similar possibility. A change that diminishes the allure of British monarchy formed over a millennium, and neglectful of this island’s true heritage and shared history with wider continental Europe. As President Macron so adeptly noted: ‘to you she was your Queen, to the French she was the Queen’, a transcendent figurehead for Britain on the global stage continually representing UK plc.

 

As we recoil from the economic shockwaves of the recent ‘Mini-Budget’, we must surely reflect on how truly lucky we were to have been her Elizabethans, elevated at her side above the day-to-day political drama, as she helped to shape our modern world for the better. But like her namesake before, we must come to question our new titles, as we herald our new King. Alien as we were to the new Jacobean period in 1603, confused we stand now.

 

As it remains, our corrupted coinage renders us unfortunate ‘Charle-tans’, neither latin, nor fully English, but an uneasy and unhappy hybrid floating in the Atlantic.

 

Indeed if we are to see the true modernisation of the Monarchy, why hold onto any vestiges of past Kingship at all? 2022 could easily see the King revert to the language of his people ‘C III K’, or like with the present cypher being too close to that of a well-known footballer, is that likely to draw too many comparisons to a recognisable underwear chain?

 

Should we not ultimately respect as much the duties and service of the historic House of Windsor, as the customs and convention that placed His Majesty Carolus III Rex there?

 

Are we not Caroleans, after all?

[Paul]

10 minutes ago, AurumArgenti said:

I'm probably going to keep my powder dry for the sovereign.

Look at my purchases spreadsheet - the 2022 sovereign was launched/sold 15th Nov last year 

So not far away 

[SidS]

37 minutes ago, GoldDiggerDave said:

@westminstrel £1,195 for a Gold proof 50p is insane. If it’s not tiny mintages I’m bailing tomorrow.  
 

The 50p I like but it’s equally a clumsy design fitting a 4 sided design into a 7 sided coin makes it far from symmetrical, the bottom two Shields run out of parallel to the sides of the coin.

Why they did not just make this as a coronation crown as the did in 1953 is silly, however the 50p is the largest circulation coin we have so they’ve simply bodged the design to make it work.

 

 

 

 

I don't see anything wrong with it. I think it works quite well.

[GoldDiggerDave]

7 minutes ago, SidS said:

I don't see anything wrong with it. I think it works quite well.

Good to see you getting into modern commemoratives😁 which ones are you getting in the morning? 

[GoldDiggerDave]

12 minutes ago, Paul said:

Look at my purchases spreadsheet - the 2022 sovereign was launched/sold 15th Nov last year 

So not far away 

14th November this year?  It’s his Birthday……..same as mine😂 

[Paul]

5 minutes ago, GoldDiggerDave said:

14th November this year?  It’s his Birthday……..same as mine😂 

sovereign release day might get the Royal Mint credit limit maxed out again 

[GoldDiggerDave]

Just now, Paul said:

sovereign release day might get the Royal Mint credit limit maxed out again 

They have just cleared mine today after having the coins for almost 8 weeks😂 

I’m keeping that baby empty now…..I’ll fight you to the death for a few 5 coin sovereign sets. The second I get them it’s legs to the NGC🏃🏃🏃💨💨💨

[paulmerton]

Is the 2023 proof sovereign likely to have anything special about it, other than being the first one with him on it? If it's only the latter with no special design or privy mark, I don't think I'd find it interesting.

[Paul]

1 minute ago, paulmerton said:

Is the 2023 proof sovereign likely to have anything special about it, other than being the first one with him on it? If it's only the latter with no special design or privy mark, I don't think I'd find it interesting.

im keeping available funds - just in case is a special/different.  Standard George & Dragon will most likely let them pass  

[Mtaybar]

5 minutes ago, Paul said:

im keeping available funds - just in case is a special/different.  Standard George & Dragon will most likely let them pass  

If there's a sotd of his coronation sovereign then that's where my money will go, regardless of design.  

[GoldDiggerDave]

3 minutes ago, Paul said:

im keeping available funds - just in case is a special/different.  Standard George & Dragon will most likely let them pass  

Lol…..you are just down playing it…….it’s likely the only time in most of our lifetime to buy a new monarchs sovereign set  in the year of coronation, I love a 1902 style acid dipped Matte sovereign.  Also the gold proof annul coin sets are likely to have a gem in them, gold maunday?  Or something like that. 

[Paul]

1 minute ago, Mtaybar said:

If there's a sotd of his coronation sovereign then that's where my money will go, regardless of design.  

this next year will have a few in demand/popular/investment potential  releases i have no doubt of that 

[Paul]

2 minutes ago, GoldDiggerDave said:

Lol…..you are just down playing it

  

[SidS]

29 minutes ago, GoldDiggerDave said:

Good to see you getting into modern commemoratives😁 which ones are you getting in the morning? 

Whatever I get in change when I fill up the car! 😁

[richatthecroft]

I think the choice of using the classic design of the Crown in Centre of Emblematical Cross, with Shield of Arms in Angles for the 50p is a nice idea.  Being a collector of Crowns, I would have preferred it on the Charles £5 but we can’t always get what we want.  

As we know, the design featured on the 1953 Coronation Crown all in Cupronickel- Bu, Proof & VIP Proof Spink 4136- (Bu & Proof are pictured below.)

The design was also replicated in 1960 for the New York Exhibition issue, again, in Cupronickel Bu, similar from polished dies (photo below) and VIP Proof,  Spink 4143.

The design was latterly used in 2014 in a commemorative £5 Crown coin to mark the First Birthday of Prince George of Cambridge and only issued in Silver Proof (bottom photo) Spink ‘Decimal issues’ L33.

[westminstrel]

5 hours ago, GoldDiggerDave said:

@westminstrel £1,195 for a Gold proof 50p is insane. If it’s not tiny mintages I’m bailing tomorrow.  
 

The 50p I like but it’s equally a clumsy design fitting a 4 sided design into a 7 sided coin makes it far from symmetrical, the bottom two Shields run out of parallel to the sides of the coin.

Why they did not just make this as a coronation crown as the did in 1953 is silly, however the 50p is the largest circulation coin we have so they’ve simply bodged the design to make it work.

 

 

 

 

I think it’s because of the way it’s placed on the stand.

It seems alright here:

Do you know what the mintages of the silver and gold proofs might be?

Somehow if I don’t get the gold, I’ll be a bit relieved as it’ll be money saved for the 2023 Sovereign. 😛

[Zhorro]

37 minutes ago, westminstrel said:

I think it’s because of the way it’s placed on the stand.

It seems alright here:

Do you know what the mintages of the silver and gold proofs might be?

Somehow if I don’t get the gold, I’ll be a bit relieved as it’ll be money saved for the 2023 Sovereign. 😛

I've heard that the silver is unlimited until the end of December - I've not heard anything about the gold.

[Vern]

28 minutes ago, Zhorro said:

I've heard that the silver is unlimited until the end of December - I've not heard anything about the gold.

That would be unusual. Are you sure it was for silver and not cupronickel / other ?

[GoldDiggerDave]

32 minutes ago, Zhorro said:

I've heard that the silver is unlimited until the end of December - I've not heard anything about the gold.

The whole idea of a proof coin is that it has some sort of exclusivity, if it’s unlimited then it’s crazy to pay a premium for it.