Investigation into Historic Coin Pricing by The Royal Mint

[BackyardBullion]

For a while now you may have seen I have been making comentaries on the seemingly extortionate prices of some of the Royal Mint's Historic Coin pricing. 

Today we see another example of outrageous prices with the Pistrucci 3 coin set. 

The Royal Mint have  valued two silver crowns (1819 and 1821) at a combined value of £600+ 

I am in the process of an investigation and deep dive into this and have reached out the the Royal Mint press office for comments (they have not been great in their replies so far). 

Lots to share in due course and it should be quite telling for the mint when published. 

What I would like from this thread is any community sentiments on this practice by The Royal Mint. 

They need to understand its not just one crazy guy with a YouTube channel that has a problem here. There are deeper issues at play which I feel very strongly about including but not limited to The Royal Mint profiteering from the unsuspecting public that don't know better and who take the valuations from the mint at face value. 

If you have an opinion on this and you would like it to be shared please post here. 

If you would rather remain anonymous please feel free to PM me and sentiments can be shared that way. 

The Royal Mint is in my opinion taking a direction that will ultimately do serious damage to their brand and reputation. My goal is change, but I will settle for consumer awareness for the wider population. If I can save just one person from buying a coin 10x the true value that is my job done. 

Any thoughts/comments and opinions are most welcome.

Remember, this is a public forum and thread and comments may be publiushed on YouTube.

[RiverbankSilver]

Personally I think the latest Great Engravers series in silver are well overpriced, due to the milk spotting problem with Royal mint. A high priced silver coin to lose value within a few months due to this issue, is a big gamble in my eyes. I have stopped collecting anything in silver from the Royal mint.

[Petra]

Like it or not, I imagine a company can charge what they like for a product? If people are willing to pay the stupid prices for either older coins or the new releases then they’re not going to stop. As long as any of these coins sell there isn’t going to be any change.

[JamesH]

If you removed the word “Royal” from the brand, they’d just be another mint, invested in little more than profiteering from those that know no better. Argument can be made that whilst you have those willing to pay whatever price is asked, there’s a market for the mint to sell to but if you take a step back, what do you really get from them that you don’t get elsewhere? Quality control? Behave yourself. Top quality silver? There’s more milking at Royal Mint than a dairy. It’s just not worth buying from them directly and paying the premiums

[Agaupl]

My biggest worry is the quality control issues especially with proof coins but also the milk spotting on silver Brit’s. I’ve stopped buying silver RMint bullion completely now. Also generally poor customer service. 
 

With the over pricing of these ‘historic sets’ they are now running the risk of becoming just like the mints selling coins out of magazine ads or unscrupulous 2nd hand car salesmen. The customers may be satisfied.. but that’s because they don’t yet know they are being ripped off.
The sets are well presented and can been seen as nice collectors pieces.. the issue is in the huge premium and when does this turn from fair premium to exploitation of the unwary. This would be poor for any company… but the fact that the Royal Mint is owned by HMT and literally lives and breathes of the history off the institution, the monarchy and indirectly the country. .. it’s humiliating for all involved. 
 

The only thing that is milked more than the silver…are the Royal Mint’s customers. 

Edited February 16 by Agaupl

[Orpster]

I do not generally buy from the Royal Mint anymore with the odd exception,

What I do is wait and buy from the secondary market, generally wayyyyyy below RRP.  The one I have found the most telling is 1/4oz proofs.  They are charging £750+ on new releases now and I have not paid more than £500 on the secondary market, often under £450.  Examples of this is the Who and Bowie coins, the Queens Honours series and the Mr Men series, all of which I picked up for a combined saving over RRP of over £1200!!!!

The other telling factor for me on the last 3 sovereign releases is you can literally pre-order from other dealers at below release price.  The Coins of the Realm were selling the 5 coin memorial set considerably under Royal Mint price, and every other set and single.  I had half sovereigns from them and Britannia coins.  The Britannia coins ones I bought were after release and were being sold at a huge discount on rrp.  I am expecting the sales on the last three years to be the full set amounts not to be under total maximum mintage like in previous years (check the 2018 piedfort sovereign for potential total mintage versus how many were actually sold as an example).  Any they have left they are knocking out cheap to dealers I suspect.  BBP on black Friday for instance!!!

They are also releasing coins early to some dealers and making Joe Public wait well past release dates to receive their coin, meaning that your average Joe like me has almost no chance of getting a first release label when sending for grading unless paying a premium to said dealers.  This has caused a premium on first release label coins to rise.  

Edited February 15 by Orpster

[sovereignsteve]

This thread is specifically about the RM's pricing of historical coins and yes, I've never ever seen a single offering that hasn't been grossly over priced.

Their "special" sets especially, frequently come on to the market and, looking at the auction hammer prices, you know the original buyer or their estate has made a massive loss. The only thing you can say in their defense is the buyers are getting a guarantee of authenticity. Well, one would hope so, but I wouldn't be surprised......😎
This, coupled with the name is the reason these guilible people are buying. It's like anything in the collectable arena, knowledge is king and Caveat Emptor.

[cjbcomm]

Some of their "collections" are outrageously priced. 

The silver set mentioned above is an ideal example along with the 3 coin gold set they marketed today. This had the 2 OZ GE coin along with 2 sovereigns (1821 and 1820) for a total price of £19,500.

This values the 2 sovereigns at £14k when you take off the price of the 2 Oz. You'd struggle to value the sovs at £4k based on recent auction prices. Massive premium with a tag line of "Only 15 sets available". You could build this set for half the price without a fancy RM wooden box.

Their pricing for modern coins is transparent enough. Buyer needs to decide if they think it is value or not but the historic sets are basically a rip off when you look at the intrinsic value of the coins in the sets.

Sure it would be possible to go through any of their recent offerings and find this with pretty much all of them.

No doubt there are many unsuspecting buyers with these collections that are now worth significantly less than the purchase price.

RM themselves often call their clients with reduced price offers for these sets which are still OTT.

 

 

[Earthmetal]

I can't imagine me buying directly from the Royal Mint ever again, (unless they make a pricing mistake!).
Their poor attitude towards garbage quality bullion has seen to that.

They've gone from pride of the nation to laughing stock of the world.

VERY poor quality at exhorbitant prices. 

[SovereignBull]

I think today might be an awakening to many of those that buy from royal mint. I know a lot of collectors were looking forward to todays release and even though we were hit with a substantial mark up compared to the previous GES it honestly felt like there was a consensus of this is the last time! Especially on here (not sure about the other collectors out there)

I for one will not be buying another coin off them unless we have an error in pricing like the 1/4 sov

Enough is definitely enough and at £284 posted for a 2oz silver coin it’s time they had a changing of the guard and take a serious look at quality and the amount of coins they are releasing! When you are having 3/4 special releases a month they quickly become unspecial!

[Earthmetal]

42 minutes ago, SovereignBull said:

I for one will not be buying another coin off them unless we have an error in pricing like the 1/4 sov

Don't rub it in...

Still gutted.

Edited February 15 by Earthmetal

[AppleZippoandMetronome]

Whether intentional or not I do feel the current way the RM is selling these packaged up historic coins is wrong and very much has the potential to take advantage of people who don't know better. The cobbling together of coins and marketing them as something special when they aren't is nothing new but I do think its especially problematic coming from a place like the Royal Mint. From what I've seen the RM has quite a good reputation and level of trustworthiness amongst the general public. I would think there are quite a few people out there who wouldn't expect to be taken advtange of by the RM but that is what is happening when the RM puts these things together and tries to sell them as something special. All businesses have to make money but the issue I see with this is its dressing up something to be more than what it is so it can be sold at a much higher price than what its worth. It is misleading and people will be swindled by it. Sadly it tends to be some of the most vulnerable in our society that get drawn into and swindled by things like this.

[JamesH]

2 hours ago, Earthmetal said:

Don't rub it in...

Still gutted.

Still wish I’d bought more 🤣

[Ted1945]

When I first started collecting I fell foul of the RM, canny salesperson quickly spotted I was a newbie. Subsequently I have some nice old coins in tidy packaging with an SOA and warnings never to open lest the sophisticated grading EF is contaminated.

The premium to comparative coins I’ve seen on TSF hurts like hell.

Caveat Emptor foff they are exploiting trust and debasing the institution.

Fortunately having laughed at subsequent attempts to fleece me with what’s best described as s*** they leave me alone.

I wish you all the best in your endeavours. I hope the recipient of your complaint can read.

 

 

 

[JTerry3]

Their historical coins would still be laughably overpriced even if they came UNC but nearly always the grade of the coin in question is quite low with much wear (especially in those multi coin sets) which makes the disparity even greater between retail price & true value so they must be making huge profits in that area of their business. 

[BackyardBullion]

28 minutes ago, Ted1945 said:

When I first started collecting I fell foul of the RM, canny salesperson quickly spotted I was a newbie. Subsequently I have some nice old coins in tidy packaging with an SOA and warnings never to open lest the sophisticated grading EF is contaminated.

The premium to comparative coins I’ve seen on TSF hurts like hell.

Caveat Emptor foff they are exploiting trust and debasing the institution.

Fortunately having laughed at subsequent attempts to fleece me with what’s best described as s*** they leave me alone.

I wish you all the best in your endeavours. I hope the recipient of your complaint can read.

 

 

 

This is super sad to read.

I hope we can effect some changes but the reality is they don't care 

[Fishy321]

I am guessing they do not have a legal responsibility to offer a % value for money, but constant overpricing should damage the business through lowering repeat and new buyers - surely a situation that has little benefit for all concerned 

[slack]

8 hours ago, Ted1945 said:

When I first started collecting I fell foul of the RM, canny salesperson quickly spotted I was a newbie. Subsequently I have some nice old coins in tidy packaging with an SOA and warnings never to open lest the sophisticated grading EF is contaminated.

The premium to comparative coins I’ve seen on TSF hurts like hell.

Caveat Emptor foff they are exploiting trust and debasing the institution.

Fortunately having laughed at subsequent attempts to fleece me with what’s best described as s*** they leave me alone.

I wish you all the best in your endeavours. I hope the recipient of your complaint can read.

 

 

 

My story is a carbon copy of the above, I've since learnt to avoid doing business with the royal mint, best wishes to all and thank you to BYB for taking this situation up with the royal mint 

[BackyardBullion]

First up, thank you for all the comments so far on this thread. 

Keep them coming. 

I will be sharing the link to this thread with the "Customer Engagement Team" who have now been tasked by the Press Office (because the press office basically could not answer my questions). Hopefully we will get some feedback on this situation. 

I want someone at The Royal Mint to hear all the feedback you all have, especially those who have had a really bad experience with the Historic coins. 

 

[GBStacking]

The Royal Mint feels very Jekyll and Hyde with their products, on one hand, producing some stunning designs on the other hand sweeping out the cupboards and throwing together a set out of what they find. The practice of selling historical coins at vastly inflated prices definitely seems to be designed to take advantage of those who don't know better. Particularly in light of the increase in PM collecting\stacking by joe public following the economic woes of C19. These sets absolutely tarnish the prestige of their brand and do put me off buying their other products. 

[CaptCaveMan]

Kudos for taking this 'poison chalice' up @BackyardBullion

I only started buying relatively recently (in the last 2-3 years) like many during lockdown but since going down the rabbit hole....

 I've never bought bullion from RM direct and won't, be it new or historic as the premiums are always much higher than the forum or dealers for that matter but I did start buying proof coins... if I ever got lucky in the queue 🙄

I soon found out that modern, allocated stock is generally slightly cheaper than buying direct which I'll never understand and does feels like overpricing.  Now if there is a coin or series I want, I'll reach out first to place an order and try to guarantee a purchase.  

Specifically on historic coins/sets, we all know we can buy these at a fraction of the cost vs. RM with a little patience.  I do feel the RM by virtue of their name/brand are taking advantage, more so of new collectors and stackers alike or those with a FOMO or can't wait.  The high premiums only puts me off buying direct, it may sound harsh but they're starting to remind me of H&B, will the next step be weekly deals in the post on 'limited' sets at extortionate prices?

I understand they are a business to make profit as well as minting/printing our UK currency but can't help wondering how long before they permanently damage their reputation.

Edited February 16 by CaptCaveMan

[Petra]

trouble is though, no matter what people think or say, everyone always queue up for all the latest releases, battle to buy all the latest coins and buy up all the strange put together sets. Then, everyone complains about prices, customer service, milking on coins (not the only mint with that problem), damaged coins, generally poor coins….. but keep buying!

Until the sales of coins are effected nothing will be done. Remember  the mint makes a lot of money doing other than selling fancy coins to people like us on the forum.

Reputation? Yeah, like they worry or need to worry about that. 

 

 

 

Edited February 16 by Petra
spell

[BackyardBullion]

Quick update on my little investigation.

Had no tangible feedback from The Royal Mint yet on their pricing of this product in particular: 

https://www.royalmint.com/shop/monarch/queen-victoria/victoria-young-head-crown/

£270

I sent the images of this coin off to Sovereign Rarities (Who are recommended on RM's website for historic coin valuations, also RM owns 23.4% stake in Sovereign Rarities).

Anyway, I got a very prompt reply from Sovereign Rarities who put a value of £25 on this coin.

SHOCKING

So, I decided to place an order on RM website for this listing to see what I got. 

Unfortunatley I did not get this dog of a coin. Instead I got a middle of the road version with at least the crown side visible. 

This is the coin I received

Not terrible, but not great either. 

I think we can all agree this is not a £270 version of this coin.

I understand that there is a premium for the display and the fact you are buying from an authenticated source and that is worth something. But when you see comprable coins in similar condition selling for £50 and £64 respectively you have to ask where is the value of the additional £200+ coming from.

Needless to say I have initiated a free return to The Royal Mint for my £270 coin with a note to say that the value of the coin is far less than expected considering its condition. 

Its a shame I didn't get the complete dog of a coin though, that would have been fun.

What I would say is that at very least the RM has no clue what it is doing. Why would you have a picture of a coin like that as the listing image if you have better versions of the coins in stock?

There is only one answer. 

Show the worst image you have then nobody can moan when it arrives, you bought what you see. 

 

[Petra]

34 minutes ago, BackyardBullion said:

Quick update on my little investigation.

Had no tangible feedback from The Royal Mint yet on their pricing of this product in particular: 

https://www.royalmint.com/shop/monarch/queen-victoria/victoria-young-head-crown/

I sent the images of this coin off to Sovereign Rarities (Who are recommended on RM's website for historic coin valuations, also RM owns 23.4% stake in Sovereign Rarities).

Anyway, I got a very prompt reply from Sovereign Rarities who put a value of £25 on this coin.

SHOCKING

So, I decided to place an order on RM website for this listing to see what I got. 

Unfortunatley I did not get this dog of a coin. Instead I got a middle of the road version with at least the crown side visible. 

This is the coin I received

Not terrible, but not great either. 

I think we can all agree this is not a £270 version of this coin.

I understand that there is a premium for the display and the fact you are buying from an authenticated source and that is worth something. But when you see comprable coins in similar condition selling for £50 and £64 respectively you have to ask where is the value of the additional £200+ coming from.

Needless to say I have initiated a free return to The Royal Mint for my £270 coin with a note to say that the value of the coin is far less than expected considering its condition. 

Its a shame I didn't get the complete dog of a coin though, that would have been fun.

What I would say is that at very least the RM has no clue what it is doing. Why would you have a picture of a coin like that as the listing image if you have better versions of the coins in stock?

There is only one answer. 

Show the worst image you have then nobody can moan when it arrives, you bought what you see. 

 

🤔best I get mine sold😮😁 notice their Maundy money sets aren’t too far out with some prices I see, but again, look around and you can get cheaper elsewhere 🤔

[BackyardBullion]

So, it looks like I will be having a zoom call with some people at the mint about the above. 

If anyone has any suggestions on questions and/or items of discussion to add with regards HISTORIC COIN PRICING only please share them.

I will open the milk spotting issue another time, this is purely about perceptions on value and overpricing