Investigation into Historic Coin Pricing by The Royal Mint

[Agaupl]

I think they will quote the idea that is an entire ‘coin hunting’ service, Hence the price. But sometimes the sets don’t even really flow correctly. The ‘curation fee’ isn’t the same as the raw coin fee, which is fine. … but I’d like to know is how is that mark up decided? Is it a %age? If so what?
The argument that they sell and complaints numbers are low is a moot point. It just shows they are aiming the sets at vulnerable groups that are less coin savy and are more likely to trust the brand. They are the Royal mint and not b*****d exchange and they will suffer when their (priceless) brand is damaged, like I’d argue the US mint is well on its way to doing too. 

At the end of the day the coin collecting/bullion stacking community are saying that they are going in the wrong direction and damaging the brand. Are they customer focused or not? Will they listen to and act on the community feedback or not? What changes can we expect to see? What changes are in the pipeline already or have already happened? Over what time line?
They have to know that neglected customers rarely leave poor feedback.. they just never buy from you ever again, and that is already happening. Ie  RM feedback that Australian sales have dropped. They just need to put 2+2 together. This will be seen in other regions too. 
 

Phew.. rant over. 

Edited February 16 by Agaupl

[Agaupl]

2 hours ago, BackyardBullion said:

Quick update on my little investigation.

Had no tangible feedback from The Royal Mint yet on their pricing of this product in particular: 

https://www.royalmint.com/shop/monarch/queen-victoria/victoria-young-head-crown/

£270

I sent the images of this coin off to Sovereign Rarities (Who are recommended on RM's website for historic coin valuations, also RM owns 23.4% stake in Sovereign Rarities).

Anyway, I got a very prompt reply from Sovereign Rarities who put a value of £25 on this coin.

SHOCKING

So, I decided to place an order on RM website for this listing to see what I got. 

Unfortunatley I did not get this dog of a coin. Instead I got a middle of the road version with at least the crown side visible. 

This is the coin I received

Not terrible, but not great either. 

I think we can all agree this is not a £270 version of this coin.

I understand that there is a premium for the display and the fact you are buying from an authenticated source and that is worth something. But when you see comprable coins in similar condition selling for £50 and £64 respectively you have to ask where is the value of the additional £200+ coming from.

Needless to say I have initiated a free return to The Royal Mint for my £270 coin with a note to say that the value of the coin is far less than expected considering its condition. 

Its a shame I didn't get the complete dog of a coin though, that would have been fun.

What I would say is that at very least the RM has no clue what it is doing. Why would you have a picture of a coin like that as the listing image if you have better versions of the coins in stock?

There is only one answer. 

Show the worst image you have then nobody can moan when it arrives, you bought what you see. 

 

I think they will show the lower end of quality on web images so that almost all coins actually received will be of better quality and therefore unlike to be non returnable due to poor quality. (These Punters unlikely to quote distance selling )

Edited February 16 by Agaupl

[Agaupl]

5 hours ago, GBStacking said:

The Royal Mint feels very Jekyll and Hyde with their products, on one hand, producing some stunning designs on the other hand sweeping out the cupboards and throwing together a set out of what they find. The practice of selling historical coins at vastly inflated prices definitely seems to be designed to take advantage of those who don't know better. Particularly in light of the increase in PM collecting\stacking by joe public following the economic woes of C19. These sets absolutely tarnish the prestige of their brand and do put me off buying their other products. 

I’d love to buy the sweeping out the back of the rm safes… if they were fairly priced. They could have a small premium to reflect the packaging and info booklets etc used in the presentation. They would be awesome.. but not at 500% markup and questionable validity .. eg the B.P last sov and 200th anniversary sov set accompanying this GE release. I mean …. That’s stretching it a bit 

[Olivard]

I like the idea of buying from RM.  The coin is verified as genuine.  They grade it and put it in a sealed card with a guarantee.  That's worth a small premium of a few £ for peace of mind.

The problem is they then ask for a stupid premium.

They have a trusted brand but seem to think that because of this they can then ask for whatever they want.  

[Earthmetal]

2 hours ago, Olivard said:

I like the idea of buying from RM.  The coin is verified as genuine.  They grade it and put it in a sealed card with a guarantee.  That's worth a small premium of a few £ for peace of mind.

The problem is they then ask for a stupid premium.

They have a trusted brand but seem to think that because of this they can then ask for whatever they want.  

I understand that, but for the most part these are coins that no-one would fake, as the real deal is far cheaper!

[dicker]

Hi @BackyardBullion

I have occasionally looked at the Historic coin section, and have always been left with the feeling that the RM are simply using their reputation to overprice coins. My thoughts are:

1. Many of the coins are not are not historic.  Some are current issues - so why advertise them as historic, or Trial of the Pyx from very recently?

2. All of the coins I have looked at are overpriced.  This can get subjective for hammered coins, I accept but I suspect a hammered expert would agree with me.  Good example is a 1957 Gillick advertised as EF for sale for £575. 

3. Confected sets - RM create historic sets and put them in a nice box and mark have spectacular markups.  

4. Prices are more expensive than buying at auction

5. I don’t have any information on how the RM source coins but I would imagine:

- High end hammered from auctions / dealers

- Most Sovs from trade (I bet they don’t buy from an account called “Royal Mint” - I bet they use some sort of intermediary

- Individuals selling out their coins which are vaulted at the RM

- Coins that the might hold back from new issues….

I no longer buy from the RM - I don’t like their new issues, detest their sales of Trial Pieces for silly money and their two tier customer experience - those with an account manager and those who have to queue.  I do wonder if account managers are selling confected “sets” of “historic” coins to the unwary.  Who in the future will come to sell and be very disappointed.

Best

Dicker

 

[GoldDiggerDave]

@BackyardBullion  make a comparable set and offer it for sale? 
 

 

[Shinus73]

Very simply, the overpricing of historic coins and ‘sets’ by the RM in recent times is immoral.
It replicates the worst behaviour of the Sunday Magazine rip off companies, but is worse coming from a trusted organisation with unique and privileged access to the back catalogue of British coins.

[BackyardBullion]

1 hour ago, dicker said:

Hi @BackyardBullion

I have occasionally looked at the Historic coin section, and have always been left with the feeling that the RM are simply using their reputation to overprice coins. My thoughts are:

1. Many of the coins are not are not historic.  Some are current issues - so why advertise them as historic, or Trial of the Pyx from very recently?

2. All of the coins I have looked at are overpriced.  This can get subjective for hammered coins, I accept but I suspect a hammered expert would agree with me.  Good example is a 1957 Gillick advertised as EF for sale for £575. 

3. Confected sets - RM create historic sets and put them in a nice box and mark have spectacular markups.  

4. Prices are more expensive than buying at auction

5. I don’t have any information on how the RM source coins but I would imagine:

- High end hammered from auctions / dealers

- Most Sovs from trade (I bet they don’t buy from an account called “Royal Mint” - I bet they use some sort of intermediary

- Individuals selling out their coins which are vaulted at the RM

- Coins that the might hold back from new issues….

I no longer buy from the RM - I don’t like their new issues, detest their sales of Trial Pieces for silly money and their two tier customer experience - those with an account manager and those who have to queue.  I do wonder if account managers are selling confected “sets” of “historic” coins to the unwary.  Who in the future will come to sell and be very disappointed.

Best

Dicker

 

Thank you very much for your detailed contribution. 

I will make sure to share this with the RM staff I speak with.

[jultorsk]

1 hour ago, dicker said:

 I do wonder if account managers are selling confected “sets” of “historic” coins to the unwary.  Who in the future will come to sell and be very disappointed.

 

Everything you wrote and especially this ˆˆ

These "Portrait sets" and "Branch mint sets" etc are particularly loathsome imo. I understand some telemarketeers / coin dealers whack up such compilations for milking the unwary, but from the RM it's just taking the low road to elderly abuse.

[dicker]

25 minutes ago, jultorsk said:

Everything you wrote and especially this ˆˆ

These "Portrait sets" and "Branch mint sets" etc are particularly loathsome imo. I understand some telemarketeers / coin dealers whack up such compilations for milking the unwary, but from the RM it's just taking the low road to elderly abuse.

I agree completely.  A step in the direction of becoming “coin marketing” companies. 

The RM however have been selling a lot of “junk” to older folk who think they are buying an investment.  My local auction house frequently has a large box of RM sets (and I mean loads of .925 set) that don’t sell or struggle to sell.

I honestly think there is a different way for the RM.

[tpcob303]

On 15/02/2024 at 12:59, Orpster said:

They are also releasing coins early to some dealers and making Joe Public wait well past release dates to receive their coin, meaning that your average Joe like me has almost no chance of getting a first release label when sending for grading unless paying a premium to said dealers.  This has caused a premium on first release label coins to rise.  

Anyone, I mean it, anyone who charges more for a PF70 FR label over a regular PF70 label needs to be HD&Q'd when there is really no difference. Just because you get it to a grader within a time period compared to others so you can slap a massive premium (and US dealers do this alot) on a coin that if another coin of the same year, type, design etc deserves to be strung up. 

I don't pay extra for FR coins on pre graded coins and no one should. A dealer has the right to cover the cost of the FR bit stated on the label ok, to cover costs plus a few percent. But if you are going to charge hundreds of dollars or pounds more for FR over regular label at the same grade, that dealer should be shamed. IMHO 

[BackyardBullion]

Well, it has been 12 days since I was told that people from The Royal Mint would like to have a zoom call to address some of the issues I have raised and I have not yet got a date for this. 

My last communication from them was on Wednesday 21st February where I was told I would have an invite by the weekend. 

I have sent a follow up email this morning and not heard anything. 

Seems like I will be getting the cold shoulder on this one. 

I will give them until Monday to respond I guess and if not then start to gather all my evidence for a pretty damning video. 

[HonestMoneyGoldSilver]

Don't be scared to tell them the truth @BackyardBullion.

Somebody needs to tell them, the Royal Mint is too important to not be at least the equal best in the world

Edited February 27 by HonestMoneyGoldSilver

[Earthmetal]

I don't think the organisation that opened in Llantrisant bore much resemblance to the one that closed in London.

[cjbcomm]

Do the mint actually check what coins are selling for on the open market?

Been offered some 2022 memorial graded coins by them at £500 more than they're selling for at reputable coin auctions!

Maybe they think no one else checks

[BackyardBullion]

8 minutes ago, cjbcomm said:

Do the mint actually check what coins are selling for on the open market?

Been offered some 2022 memorial graded coins by them at £500 more than they're selling for at reputable coin auctions!

Maybe they think no one else checks

Nah, they hope you don't know better and cash the difference.

[Petra]

1 hour ago, cjbcomm said:

Do the mint actually check what coins are selling for on the open market?

Been offered some 2022 memorial graded coins by them at £500 more than they're selling for at reputable coin auctions!

Maybe they think no one else checks

🤔😮you’re obviously a good customer!😮😂😂

[Petra]

1 hour ago, Earthmetal said:

I don't think the organisation that opened in Llantrisant bore much resemblance to the one that closed in London.

That’s probably a little out. Don’t see too many issues with older coins. I think it probably goes back to pretty recent times when the mint changed how they do things and now pour out loads of stuff on a conveyor belt and appear to have sacked all of their QA staff🤔🤔

 

 

 

 

[Coverte]

5 hours ago, BackyardBullion said:

Well, it has been 12 days since I was told that people from The Royal Mint would like to have a zoom call to address some of the issues I have raised and I have not yet got a date for this. 

My last communication from them was on Wednesday 21st February where I was told I would have an invite by the weekend. 

I have sent a follow up email this morning and not heard anything. 

Seems like I will be getting the cold shoulder on this one. 

I will give them until Monday to respond I guess and if not then start to gather all my evidence for a pretty damning video. 

You may need to broaden the scope of your overall mission for this to work, if at all, but as the RM is wholly owned by the Treasury, 

you may potentially have the right to demand various information/s under the Freedom of Information Act - maybe tell your contact of that being your next intention may well wake them up with some answers ?

[cjbcomm]

1 hour ago, Petra said:

🤔😮you’re obviously a good customer!😮😂😂

🤣Or maybe they think I'm a bit thick 😁

[BackyardBullion]

Well, I now have a time and date for a zoom call. Next week.

I'm expecting to be told I am wrong and that there are no problems.

Will be interesting 

 

[cjbcomm]

Just now, BackyardBullion said:

Well, I now have a time and date for a zoom call. Next week.

I'm expecting to be told I am wrong and that there are no problems.

Will be interesting 

 

Are you allowed to record the call?

[Elliot]

14 minutes ago, BackyardBullion said:

Well, I now have a time and date for a zoom call. Next week.

I'm expecting to be told I am wrong and that there are no problems.

Will be interesting 

 

This is still good progress. Look forward to seeing what they have to say 🤔

[Coverte]

24 minutes ago, cjbcomm said:

Are you allowed to record the call?

Yes, it's allowed (on phone calls at least) , but not for publication or distribution as I recall. 

GDPR and all that.