Investigation into Historic Coin Pricing by The Royal Mint

[GBStacking]

I read that as we agree the Victoria Young Head Crown picture is rubbish, so we will probably update it.

The rest seems to be a vague attempt to still justify excessively high prices. Slightly bizarrely, they make a point about sourcing in volume, typically this results in a cheaper price per unit rather than more expensive.

I quite agree with the part about their pricing model being quite different to other dealers, dealers without the clout of the Royal Mint brand would probably fold if they tried to sell their coins for similar prices.

The rest of the waffle about checking condition\rarity etc sounds very much like what every specialist coin dealer does as part of their own business model. Definitely not seeing anything this statement that sets the royal mint apart, with the exception of they generally present stuff in a fancier box.

[tpcob303]

Well, it's the usual spiel when they write letters like this. 

Could be worse, you could be a Swiss watch maker who will have total disregard for you as a human being in which you exist. Tbh its only slightly better than a Swiss watch maker that treats you with utter contempt, this is mainly because you got a reply which a Swiss watch maker never would as we are considered much lower in the pecking order if humanity. 

But yes, a huge letter stating absolutely nothing new, nothing we didn't know and nothing they would admit to that we really wanted to know. 

[Olivard]

They are hardly likely to admit they got it wrong and been making excess profits at the expense of customers.

However they do say that they don't always meet the right standards and will strive to do better.

BYB - I think you have done an excellent job in not only raising this issue but by the constructive and focused way you have gone about it. 

Credit to the mint also in being willing to listen.

This is a case of reading between the lines and that the success of the lobbying will be seen in what they do in future.  For me the jury is still out and we'll know better in 6 months.

[Paul]

3 hours ago, BackyardBullion said:

 

FORMAL STATEMENT BY THE ROYAL MINT

STARTS

Firstly, we would like to thank you for bringing these issues to our attention. We understand the concerns raised and welcome the opportunity to address them directly. The Royal Mint strives to provide customers with premium products and services, and we would like to reiterate that we take all customer feedback seriously.

We have a responsibility to ensure that we provide our customers with quality, authentic coins from reputable dealers. As such, our pricing reflects a variety of factors, not limited to but including, rarity, condition, their historical significance, demand, and grading, as well as packaging and presentation. Before establishing a retail price, The Royal Mint carefully reviews price guides and market trends.

As we source our historic coins in large volumes to ensure we can make enough available for customers on the website, our pricing model is quite different to dealers selling small volumes or one-off pieces. We are unable to compare or offer comment on valuations provided by external sources.

With regards to specific issues raised with products such as the Victoria Young Head Crown, we have taken this feedback and are working to ensure that our website imagery is a more accurate representation of products available. We always want our customers to make informed decisions before purchasing.

We are always working to review and enhance our historic coin offering and we are taking your feedback on board. As a trusted brand, we acknowledge that there may have been instances where we have fallen short of meeting our customers’ expectations. However, we would like to reassure you that we are committed to improving customers' experiences.

ENDS

Your thoughts on a postcard please....

[AndrewSL76]

3 hours ago, BackyardBullion said:

 

FORMAL STATEMENT BY THE ROYAL MINT

STARTS

Firstly, we would like to thank you for bringing these issues to our attention. We understand the concerns raised and welcome the opportunity to address them directly. The Royal Mint strives to provide customers with premium products and services, and we would like to reiterate that we take all customer feedback seriously.

We have a responsibility to ensure that we provide our customers with quality, authentic coins from reputable dealers. As such, our pricing reflects a variety of factors, not limited to but including, rarity, condition, their historical significance, demand, and grading, as well as packaging and presentation. Before establishing a retail price, The Royal Mint carefully reviews price guides and market trends.

As we source our historic coins in large volumes to ensure we can make enough available for customers on the website, our pricing model is quite different to dealers selling small volumes or one-off pieces. We are unable to compare or offer comment on valuations provided by external sources.

With regards to specific issues raised with products such as the Victoria Young Head Crown, we have taken this feedback and are working to ensure that our website imagery is a more accurate representation of products available. We always want our customers to make informed decisions before purchasing.

We are always working to review and enhance our historic coin offering and we are taking your feedback on board. As a trusted brand, we acknowledge that there may have been instances where we have fallen short of meeting our customers’ expectations. However, we would like to reassure you that we are committed to improving customers' experiences.

ENDS

Your thoughts on a postcard please....

Translation:

FORMAL STATEMENT BY THE ROYAL MINT

STARTS

Firstly, we would like to thank you for forcing these issues to our unwanted attention. We understand you have concerns and we welcome the opportunity to ignore them. The Royal Mint strives to provide customers with low premium products at high premium prices, and we would like to reiterate that we take all customer feedback seriously. (NB until you buy something you are NOT a customer, so please feel free to spend spend spend).

We have a responsibility to ensure that we provide our customers with quality, authentic boxes from reputable dealers. These are not cheap. As such, our pricing reflects a variety of factors, not limited to but including, rarity of the wood, condition, their historical significance, demand, as well as the very expensive cardboard packaging. Before establishing a retail price, The Royal Mint carefully ignores price guides and market trends.

As we source our historic boxes from high end carpenters to ensure we can make enough money for the terrible condition coins, our pricing model is obviously quite different to dealers selling great coins in flips. We are unable to compare or offer comment on valuations provided by external sources.

With regards to specific issues raised with products such as the Victoria Young Head Crown, we have taken this feedback, torn it up, and are working to ensure that we never have to read it again. We always want our customers to make informed decisions before purchasing, but on this occasion it is not helpful so we won't.

We are always working to review and enhance the pricing of our historic coin offering and so we are not taking your feedback on board. As a trusted brand, we acknowledge that there may have been instances where we have not charged enough for the tat we offer. However, we would like to reassure you that we are committed to improving the bank balance by offering more for more. 

ENDS

[Taikonaut]

Is that AI statement using ChatGPT?

[Darr3nG]

1 hour ago, Taikonaut said:

Is that AI statement using ChatGPT?

It's just missing the Intelligence part...

[Silver200sx]

1 hour ago, Darr3nG said:

It's just missing the Intelligence part...

Nowdays it is hard to tell, whether a response comes from a new system running on Artificial Intelligence or the opposite - traditional, based on Natural Stupidity.

[Taikonaut]

9 hours ago, Silver200sx said:

Nowdays it is hard to tell, whether a response comes from a new system running on Artificial Intelligence or the opposite - traditional, based on Natural Stupidity.

I do IT and I told a user why we no longer support her PC because it is over 10 years old, its no longer in warranty and the spec no longer runs well with current Windows 10 operating system but she kept replying and said that she needed it working for her work, then she ask can I explain the 3rd email I sent her without explaining what it is and she kept asking for that 3rd email. I knew what she was doing, she think I was an AI bot and was trolling me. I emailed her that I'm coming to her office and went to her office and stood outside her door and she refuse to open the door.

[Silverlocks]

6 hours ago, Taikonaut said:

I do IT and I told a user why we no longer support her PC because it is over 10 years old, its no longer in warranty and the spec no longer runs well with current Windows 10 operating system but she kept replying and said that she needed it working for her work, then she ask can I explain the 3rd email I sent her without explaining what it is and she kept asking for that 3rd email. I knew what she was doing, she think I was an AI bot and was trolling me. I emailed her that I'm coming to her office and went to her office and stood outside her door and she refuse to open the door.

Well, clearly, you need to start talking loudly about exterminating all inferior human life.

[Silverlocks]

23 hours ago, BackyardBullion said:

 

FORMAL STATEMENT BY THE ROYAL MINT

STARTS

Firstly, we would like to thank you for bringing these issues to our attention. We understand the concerns raised and welcome the opportunity to address them directly. The Royal Mint strives to provide customers with premium products and services, and we would like to reiterate that we take all customer feedback seriously.

We have a responsibility to ensure that we provide our customers with quality, authentic coins from reputable dealers. As such, our pricing reflects a variety of factors, not limited to but including, rarity, condition, their historical significance, demand, and grading, as well as packaging and presentation. Before establishing a retail price, The Royal Mint carefully reviews price guides and market trends.

As we source our historic coins in large volumes to ensure we can make enough available for customers on the website, our pricing model is quite different to dealers selling small volumes or one-off pieces. We are unable to compare or offer comment on valuations provided by external sources.

With regards to specific issues raised with products such as the Victoria Young Head Crown, we have taken this feedback and are working to ensure that our website imagery is a more accurate representation of products available. We always want our customers to make informed decisions before purchasing.

We are always working to review and enhance our historic coin offering and we are taking your feedback on board. As a trusted brand, we acknowledge that there may have been instances where we have fallen short of meeting our customers’ expectations. However, we would like to reassure you that we are committed to improving customers' experiences.

ENDS

Your thoughts on a postcard please....

 

Two centuries ago, in 1817 the Royal Mint introduced the new coinage including the iconic Sovereign, on which the Royal Mint would become world famous for its quality control.  Today, more than two hundred years later, the Royal Mint is .. world famous for its quality control.

I think you need to start turning 'Royal Munt' into a meme.

[Agaupl]

They only care if sales fall and tb they are mainly trying milk US and overseas customers. So they doubly dont care. 
 

even with that…..that reply was so bad… soulless. Literally said nothing in so many words. I can only imagine the person (?) that wrote this. 

[Ted1945]

On 13/03/2024 at 12:33, BackyardBullion said:

 

FORMAL STATEMENT BY THE ROYAL MINT

STARTS

Firstly, we would like to thank you for bringing these issues to our attention. We understand the concerns raised and welcome the opportunity to address them directly. The Royal Mint strives to provide customers with premium products and services, and we would like to reiterate that we take all customer feedback seriously.

We have a responsibility to ensure that we provide our customers with quality, authentic coins from reputable dealers. As such, our pricing reflects a variety of factors, not limited to but including, rarity, condition, their historical significance, demand, and grading, as well as packaging and presentation. Before establishing a retail price, The Royal Mint carefully reviews price guides and market trends.

As we source our historic coins in large volumes to ensure we can make enough available for customers on the website, our pricing model is quite different to dealers selling small volumes or one-off pieces. We are unable to compare or offer comment on valuations provided by external sources.

With regards to specific issues raised with products such as the Victoria Young Head Crown, we have taken this feedback and are working to ensure that our website imagery is a more accurate representation of products available. We always want our customers to make informed decisions before purchasing.

We are always working to review and enhance our historic coin offering and we are taking your feedback on board. As a trusted brand, we acknowledge that there may have been instances where we have fallen short of meeting our customers’ expectations. However, we would like to reassure you that we are committed to improving customers' experiences.

ENDS

Your thoughts on a postcard please....

Do see how much notice has been taken check out the Maunday sets on the RM website, makes the above sound like fiction 

[AndrewSL76]

2 hours ago, Ted1945 said:

Do see how much notice has been taken check out the Maunday sets on the RM website, makes the above sound like fiction 

Do you have a link?

[BackyardBullion]

2 minutes ago, AndrewSL76 said:

Do you have a link?

https://www.royalmint.com/shop/coin-sets/The-Monarchs-Maundy-Money-Premium-Set/

By my rough estimates this set would cost you about £4k to build on your own, if not less.

[SovereignBull]

5 minutes ago, BackyardBullion said:

https://www.royalmint.com/shop/coin-sets/The-Monarchs-Maundy-Money-Premium-Set/

By my rough estimates this set would cost you about £4k to build on your own, if not less.

In comparison to previous listings this isn’t actually that bad!

[AndrewSL76]

5 minutes ago, BackyardBullion said:

https://www.royalmint.com/shop/coin-sets/The-Monarchs-Maundy-Money-Premium-Set/

By my rough estimates this set would cost you about £4k to build on your own, if not less.

Thats crazy. Absolutely batsh*t crazy. I feel so sorry for people who fall for this.

[SiCole]

1 minute ago, BackyardBullion said:

https://www.royalmint.com/shop/coin-sets/The-Monarchs-Maundy-Money-Premium-Set/

By my rough estimates this set would cost you about £4k to build on your own, if not less.

We're not their target market though with these items. They're for people with too much money who naively trust them without question.

They won't change as the profit seems too high to refuse.

[BackyardBullion]

I think another royalty screwed video is coming out soon 😜

[AndrewSL76]

1 minute ago, BackyardBullion said:

I think another royalty screwed video is coming out soon 😜

Don’t forget that the RM is owned by the Treasury! Maybe you should be approaching the Chancellor as ultimately he is in charge.

Pretty significant profits suggest that they are selling their tat at inflamed prices without any worries/concern:

https://www.royalmint.com/aboutus/press-centre/the-royal-mint-announce-17.7million-operating-profit-as-it-forges-new-future-in-sustainable-precious-metals/#:~:text=sustainable precious metals-,The Royal Mint Announce £17.7million Operating Profit as,future in sustainable precious metals&text=Strong demand for precious metals,ending 31st March 2023.

[BackyardBullion]

@AndrewSL76

Or anyone else for that matter.

I was thinking of making a freedom of information request to get the turnover of the collector services branch.

In the royal mint accounts and annual reports they simply put it into "consumer" which is all with proof coins. 

The collector services division made £3.6m profits last year. I want to know what their margin is. 

If they made £3.6m turning over say £7m we know they are truly ripping people off. If it's £3.6m from £50m then it's less of a concern. I think it would be closer to the former though.

Any advice?

[AndrewSL76]

Just now, BackyardBullion said:

@AndrewSL76

Or anyone else for that matter.

I was thinking of making a freedom of information request to get the turnover of the collector services branch.

In the royal mint accounts and annual reports they simply put it into "consumer" which is all with proof coins. 

The collector services division made £3.6m profits last year. I want to know what their margin is. 

If they made £3.6m turning over say £7m we know they are truly ripping people off. If it's £3.6m from £50m then it's less of a concern. I think it would be closer to the former though.

Any advice?

I would be overjoyed to discuss this with you. Shout if you need help. A FOIA request is fairly straightforward. You just have to be careful to make the requests specific and try to avoid falling into the trap of requesting something that they will just say is commercially sensitive or too expensive to respond to. The exemptions under the DPA are clear so also easy to tackle in advance. 

[BackyardBullion]

Anne Jessop earned £378k last year

Pretty much sums it up

 

[SovereignBull]

11 minutes ago, BackyardBullion said:

Anne Jessop earned £378k last year

Pretty much sums it up

 

I’d be pissed being Amanda or Sarah. Quite a leap in salary to the next best paid!

[HonestMoneyGoldSilver]

15 minutes ago, BackyardBullion said:

@AndrewSL76

Or anyone else for that matter.

I was thinking of making a freedom of information request to get the turnover of the collector services branch.

In the royal mint accounts and annual reports they simply put it into "consumer" which is all with proof coins. 

The collector services division made £3.6m profits last year. I want to know what their margin is. 

If they made £3.6m turning over say £7m we know they are truly ripping people off. If it's £3.6m from £50m then it's less of a concern. I think it would be closer to the former though.

Any advice?

I can't offer any advice but I can show you what happens when you put in an FOIA to The Royal Mint:

fs50804925.pdf (ico.org.uk)

This is in relation to standard UK coinage but they would use the same arguments regardless of the product, as illustrated by points 12-15

The Royal Mint’s position

9. The Royal Mint argued that disclosure of the withheld information would prejudice rather than simply being likely to, both its and HM Treasury’s commercial interests for the following reasons:

10. Firstly, with regard to its interest own commercial interests the Royal Mint argued that the withheld information would be of significant commercial advantage to both its competitors and/or its customers. The Royal Mint argued that the withheld information would lead to inferences of its pricing structures and would undoubtedly give these third parties an inequitable edge in bidding for future work from HM Treasury, and indeed any other third party with whom Royal Mint has contracts. The Royal Mint explained that such commercial advantages would apply both in the UK and abroad.

11. In support of this position, the Royal Mint explained that:

• It is the world’s leading export mint and makes coins and blanks for over 40 countries each year, including state customers.
• Its core business is to meet the demand for UK coins. However, as the demand for new coin declines in the UK, it is increasingly seeking opportunities to grow its share of the overseas market.
•  Most, if not all, Mints have the capability of producing copper-plated coins of the same composition as used in 1p and 2p coins, and would therefore be interested in The Royal Mint’s manufacturing costs for striking.
•  Most countries who seek coins or blanks for the national currencies issue international tenders for their supply.
• Cost and/pricing is almost always the most important and decisive factor for central banks and issuing authorities with regard to ordering circulating coins and blanks.
• Reference: FS50804925
•  Finally, the Royal Mint explained that as far as it was aware, no other Mint publishes its manufacturing costs – this is as expected given that it would make no commercial sense to do so.

12. Taking the above into account, the Royal Mint argued that the number of suppliers and/or customers who would gain a commercial advantage and who may undercut or unfairly challenge its pricelist could therefore be immeasurable. By way of example, the Royal Mint explained that competitors would be able to calculate or discover its manufacturing prices which would translate into its inability to openly compete on the international market for business.

13. Furthermore, the Royal Mint argued that there is a considerable risk that disclosing the withheld information in respect of UK coins could cause a domino effect – essentially leading to a potential revelation of details of many, or all, other coin contracts to which it is a party across the world. In other words, the Royal Mint explained that it was concerned that disclosing the withheld information would open the floodgates on other projects and products (beyond just the production costs of 1p and 2p coins). For example, the Royal Mint argued that if this information is disclosed, there would be a valid (and highly detrimental) argument that the production costs of higher denomination coins, as well as those of international coins, should be disclosed to the public.

14. Secondly, the Royal Mint argued that it is a wholly government-owned organisation, any commercial damage to it would, in turn, be mirrored for its sole beneficial owner, HM Treasury.

15. Thirdly, the Royal Mint argued that it was also concerned about the real possibility of tender deterrence if the withheld information was disclosed. The Royal Mint explained that it envisaged two potential reasons why competitors may be deterred from bidding for any future contract (relating to coin production or otherwise) tendered by HM Treasury:

i) Disclosing the withheld information would set a precedent for any future contract issued by HM Treasury – to that end, competitors are likely to be concerned that their prices and other commercially sensitive information would be subject to public disclosure, if they were successful following a tender process. The Royal Mint emphasised that secretive material such as that of pricing is core to any business model, its effective operation and its ultimate success.

ii) in the alternative, if it transpires that the Royal Mint’s manufacture costs within the withheld information are at a particularly competitive rate, and/or are cheaper than those of its competitors, other manufacturers may consider it futile to even issue a tender bid – on the assumption that they would be unsuccessful for costs reasons.