Investigation into Historic Coin Pricing by The Royal Mint

[Ted1945]

2 hours ago, BackyardBullion said:

Well, I now have a time and date for a zoom call. Next week.

I'm expecting to be told I am wrong and that there are no problems.

Will be interesting 

 

Good luck this is noble work 

 

[TheSilverMagpie]

It seems the Royal Mint are literally operating a pricing scam here.

They seem to be offering old coins at top premium, which could arguably be fair if the coin received was in extremely fine to mint condition. 

To then send out coins that are of a condition no better than fair, extremely worn, is in my opinion,seriously misleading the buyer. This matters more if the buyer isn't really into coin collecting in a serious way, because when that individual does find out, it may put them off the hobby when they realise they've been stung by such a prominent seller as Royal Mint. I see this as "miss-selling a product" and quite literally, scamming the buyer.

[Silverman2U]

On 15/02/2024 at 12:51, cjbcomm said:

Some of their "collections" are outrageously priced. 

The silver set mentioned above is an ideal example along with the 3 coin gold set they marketed today. This had the 2 OZ GE coin along with 2 sovereigns (1821 and 1820) for a total price of £19,500.

This values the 2 sovereigns at £14k when you take off the price of the 2 Oz. You'd struggle to value the sovs at £4k based on recent auction prices. Massive premium with a tag line of "Only 15 sets available". You could build this set for half the price without a fancy RM wooden box.

Their pricing for modern coins is transparent enough. Buyer needs to decide if they think it is value or not but the historic sets are basically a rip off when you look at the intrinsic value of the coins in the sets.

Sure it would be possible to go through any of their recent offerings and find this with pretty much all of them.

No doubt there are many unsuspecting buyers with these collections that are now worth significantly less than the purchase price.

RM themselves often call their clients with reduced price offers for these sets which are still OTT.

 

 

Yes. Agree with these comments. Definitely cut back as finding is mainly taking a hit of purchase from RM. 99% drop in value, watches by contrast… you know the ones to buy that go up, or at least hold value. You don’t know this with RM coins and it’s almost more a “pump and dump” market on proofs. Bullion is the only decent asset, a little milt we are not worried as the value is in the metal. This is NOT the case with the proof. 1/2 of all proofs I have ever received from RM are returned due to quality issues most of the time. 

[cjbcomm]

23 minutes ago, Silverman2U said:

Yes. Agree with these comments. Definitely cut back as finding is mainly taking a hit of purchase from RM. 99% drop in value, watches by contrast… you know the ones to buy that go up, or at least hold value. You don’t know this with RM coins and it’s almost more a “pump and dump” market on proofs. Bullion is the only decent asset, a little milt we are not worried as the value is in the metal. This is NOT the case with the proof. 1/2 of all proofs I have ever received from RM are returned due to quality issues most of the time. 

Shows when you can pick up these sets and proofs on the open market for basically bullion prices. Bullion is the way as you say

[BackyardBullion]

@Silverman2U @cjbcomm

I think it is important to draw a distiction between proofs and historic coins which is what this thread is primarily about. 

Proof coins are expensive, would I like to see them cheaper, sure why not. 

Can you buy them on the second hand market cheaper, yeah sometimes. 

Historic coins however - these have a different feel to them on The Royal Mint's website. It feels like they have sourced them cheap and then slapped a massive price on to simply profiteer from people that don't know better. 

That's part of why I am inititiating this "investigation" and getting some feedback from the mint. 

I don't begrudge any company trying to make a profit. Taking a historic coin, checking it, authenticating it and then presenting it in a information sleave/box - sure thats fine and you can charge a premium for this for customers peace of mind. There is a market for this kind of product. 

What I have a problem with is that The Royal Mint will use their reputation and branding to make people think a coin is valued at a certain level just because they say so.

Flagship of the world silver, 6x bulloin (poor condition if you see the photos) for £82.50 per oz is just a blatent rip off. £270 for a completely worn victoria young head crown...total rip off. 

Price those at £40 per oz and £120 per crown then I would have no problem. They are still expensive but they are not extotinate.

 

[Petra]

2 minutes ago, BackyardBullion said:

@Silverman2U @cjbcomm

I think it is important to draw a distiction between proofs and historic coins which is what this thread is primarily about. 

Proof coins are expensive, would I like to see them cheaper, sure why not. 

Can you buy them on the second hand market cheaper, yeah sometimes. 

Historic coins however - these have a different feel to them on The Royal Mint's website. It feels like they have sourced them cheap and then slapped a massive price on to simply profiteer from people that don't know better. 

That's part of why I am inititiating this "investigation" and getting some feedback from the mint. 

I don't begrudge any company trying to make a profit. Taking a historic coin, checking it, authenticating it and then presenting it in a information sleave/box - sure thats fine and you can charge a premium for this for customers peace of mind. There is a market for this kind of product. 

What I have a problem with is that The Royal Mint will use their reputation and branding to make people think a coin is valued at a certain level just because they say so.

Flagship of the world silver, 6x bulloin (poor condition if you see the photos) for £82.50 per oz is just a blatent rip off. £270 for a completely worn victoria young head crown...total rip off. 

Price those at £40 per oz and £120 per crown then I would have no problem. They are still expensive but they are not extotinate.

 

👍👍

[Silverman2U]

2 hours ago, BackyardBullion said:

@Silverman2U @cjbcomm

I think it is important to draw a distiction between proofs and historic coins which is what this thread is primarily about. 

Proof coins are expensive, would I like to see them cheaper, sure why not. 

Can you buy them on the second hand market cheaper, yeah sometimes. 

Historic coins however - these have a different feel to them on The Royal Mint's website. It feels like they have sourced them cheap and then slapped a massive price on to simply profiteer from people that don't know better. 

That's part of why I am inititiating this "investigation" and getting some feedback from the mint. 

I don't begrudge any company trying to make a profit. Taking a historic coin, checking it, authenticating it and then presenting it in a information sleave/box - sure thats fine and you can charge a premium for this for customers peace of mind. There is a market for this kind of product. 

What I have a problem with is that The Royal Mint will use their reputation and branding to make people think a coin is valued at a certain level just because they say so.

Flagship of the world silver, 6x bulloin (poor condition if you see the photos) for £82.50 per oz is just a blatent rip off. £270 for a completely worn victoria young head crown...total rip off. 

Price those at £40 per oz and £120 per crown then I would have no problem. They are still expensive but they are not extotinate.

 

See your point on this thread. I guess I would never buy a historical coin from RM ever anyways as they seem to always be over priced. I guess I am more concerned by the recent George Michael coin video you posted showing how publicly that present imperfect coin as a proof. I am taking that issue to my manager there. Maybe not one for this thread though. Thanks. 🙏 

[Bruce06]

I have bought 2 King George V silver coins from RM site when i started collecting numismatic coins years way back.  After a year, i realized i can purchase similar grade ones at 50-60% from markets, a lesson learned and luckily not sky rocket prices were involved.  These 2 coins are still kept by me up to now and remind me the story behind😅.

[BackyardBullion]

Well, maybe some progress. 

3 weeks ago I did a video showing this set and we did our little "view source" trick to see how many were available, the quantity was 498

Today I see this set is "no longer available"

Whether this has anything to do with what we are addressing on Wednesday I don't know - but I am sure as heck gonna ask The Royal Mint about it!

 

[SovereignBull]

3 minutes ago, BackyardBullion said:

Well, maybe some progress. 

3 weeks ago I did a video showing this set and we did our little "view source" trick to see how many were available, the quantity was 498

Today I see this set is "no longer available"

Whether this has anything to do with what we are addressing on Wednesday I don't know - but I am sure as heck gonna ask The Royal Mint about it!

 

A very clutching at straws collection at best! Would almost forgive them if if was around the £200 mark and VERY well presented but at £500 thats just taking the P#SS

[BackyardBullion]

4 minutes ago, SovereignBull said:

A very clutching at straws collection at best! Would almost forgive them if if was around the £200 mark and VERY well presented but at £500 thats just taking the P#SS

Yes, this is why I think it is very unlikely they sold 498 of these sets in the last 3 weeks when they sold only 1 in the last 12 months. 

[SovereignBull]

4 minutes ago, BackyardBullion said:

Yes, this is why I think it is very unlikely they sold 498 of these sets in the last 3 weeks when they sold only 1 in the last 12 months. 

Cant help but think this is very close to what I would consider fraud.

[jultorsk]

7 minutes ago, BackyardBullion said:

 

GBP495 for that set? That's willfully misleading, to put it nicely.

[BackyardBullion]

18 minutes ago, SovereignBull said:

Cant help but think this is very close to what I would consider fraud.

Fraud is a criminal offence as defined by the Fraud Act 2006. Most commonly it occurs when a person or organisation dishonestly makes a false representation in order to gain for themselves or cause loss to another.

[HonestMoneyGoldSilver]

1 hour ago, BackyardBullion said:

Well, maybe some progress. 

3 weeks ago I did a video showing this set and we did our little "view source" trick to see how many were available, the quantity was 498

Today I see this set is "no longer available"

Whether this has anything to do with what we are addressing on Wednesday I don't know - but I am sure as heck gonna ask The Royal Mint about it!

 

 

The case must be 15oz of 999 silver sculpted by a South Korean, otherwise it would be daylight robbery for RM to charge almost £400 for it!!

[Petra]

3 hours ago, jultorsk said:

GBP495 for that set? That's willfully misleading, to put it nicely.

😮🤔but you get a ‘luxurious’ box to hide them in😮😮😳

[HonestMoneyGoldSilver]

I watched your latest video and you may as well piss in the wind @BackyardBullion

To fix the problems with RM you need to fire and shame the majority of their senior management team. They are a disgrace to the United Kingdom. Do you think you'll get much traction telling someone they are doing an atrocious job, are scamming the public, and demanding their resignation? 

They will go defensive and talk corporate nonsense like they don't see the milk spot problems in the data, their QC is great, their business runs like a well-oiled machine. They are outperforming the market and every other major mint (Perth, US Mint, RCM, etc) on certain metrics and they will ram this down your throat

It's Kissinger: "the perception of the truth is more important than the truth"

The only way to make RM listen is with your feet and pockets. Don't visit their website and don't buy their latest products until they fix their QC and pricing problems

------------------------------------

My last experience with the RM was a nightmare (Black Friday Gold Bar Fiasco). Broken promises, annoyance over Christmas, etc. Staff were great, very helpful, the senior management and the company itself is a total shambles. 

[365DaysofSilver]

On 15/02/2024 at 10:24, BackyardBullion said:

For a while now you may have seen I have been making comentaries on the seemingly extortionate prices of some of the Royal Mint's Historic Coin pricing. 

Today we see another example of outrageous prices with the Pistrucci 3 coin set. 

The Royal Mint have  valued two silver crowns (1819 and 1821) at a combined value of £600+ 

I am in the process of an investigation and deep dive into this and have reached out the the Royal Mint press office for comments (they have not been great in their replies so far). 

Lots to share in due course and it should be quite telling for the mint when published. 

What I would like from this thread is any community sentiments on this practice by The Royal Mint. 

They need to understand its not just one crazy guy with a YouTube channel that has a problem here. There are deeper issues at play which I feel very strongly about including but not limited to The Royal Mint profiteering from the unsuspecting public that don't know better and who take the valuations from the mint at face value. 

If you have an opinion on this and you would like it to be shared please post here. 

If you would rather remain anonymous please feel free to PM me and sentiments can be shared that way. 

The Royal Mint is in my opinion taking a direction that will ultimately do serious damage to their brand and reputation. My goal is change, but I will settle for consumer awareness for the wider population. If I can save just one person from buying a coin 10x the true value that is my job done. 

Any thoughts/comments and opinions are most welcome.

Remember, this is a public forum and thread and comments may be publiushed on YouTube.

Love that you have a phone call scheduled in BYB, just seen your latest video. 

It’s definitely not just ‘one crazy guy’ that has issues with The Royal Mint, this petition I started regarding the milk spotting issues has 177 signatures so far!

https://www.change.org/p/the-royal-mint-need-to-stop-their-milk-spot-issues?recruiter=1290909692&recruited_by_id=c19877e0-8b9b-11ed-ac24-773f15352d3c&utm_source=share_petition&utm_campaign=share_for_starters_page&utm_medium=copylink

[365DaysofSilver]

1 hour ago, 365DaysofSilver said:

Love that you have a phone call scheduled in BYB, just seen your latest video. 

It’s definitely not just ‘one crazy guy’ that has issues with The Royal Mint, this petition I started regarding the milk spotting issues has 177 signatures so far!

https://www.change.org/p/the-royal-mint-need-to-stop-their-milk-spot-issues?recruiter=1290909692&recruited_by_id=c19877e0-8b9b-11ed-ac24-773f15352d3c&utm_source=share_petition&utm_campaign=share_for_starters_page&utm_medium=copylink

184 signature now! 

[BackyardBullion]

1 hour ago, 365DaysofSilver said:

Love that you have a phone call scheduled in BYB, just seen your latest video. 

It’s definitely not just ‘one crazy guy’ that has issues with The Royal Mint, this petition I started regarding the milk spotting issues has 177 signatures so far!

https://www.change.org/p/the-royal-mint-need-to-stop-their-milk-spot-issues?recruiter=1290909692&recruited_by_id=c19877e0-8b9b-11ed-ac24-773f15352d3c&utm_source=share_petition&utm_campaign=share_for_starters_page&utm_medium=copylink

Milking is perhaps my next crusade. Right now we are just focusing on the historic coins pricing.

[tpcob303]

The problem is as well as the RM have also been caught selling fake coins through their historic coin program. 

Sure mistakes are made but it's as if they don't check the quality of items they sell. They over price, over grade a coin so the actual grade is lower than it technically is and its evident when you buy a coin, grade it and it comes back lower than what they claim it was and it also means the coin is worth less graded as what it sold for by them. Plus I have seen a few times where people have bought a historic coin and its come back from the graders as a fake coin. So if QC checks are lacking so are yhr  authentication quality checks found to be lacking. It's like they don't out effort in. It's time for a complete reform of the company to provide the products and services to the level they claim they provide. For starters how they check a coins final condition before they package it, arms length is simply not good enough when for the same amount of time they can easily bring a coin closer to the face and check it. Arms length is not a good enough metric for quality when doing final checks on modern proof coins, it wouldn't take any longer changing this method so why keep it this way. 

[BackyardBullion]

12 minutes ago, tpcob303 said:

The problem is as well as the RM have also been caught selling fake coins through their historic coin program. 

Sure mistakes are made but it's as if they don't check the quality of items they sell. They over price, over grade a coin so the actual grade is lower than it technically is and its evident when you buy a coin, grade it and it comes back lower than what they claim it was and it also means the coin is worth less graded as what it sold for by them. Plus I have seen a few times where people have bought a historic coin and its come back from the graders as a fake coin. So if QC checks are lacking so are yhr  authentication quality checks found to be lacking. It's like they don't out effort in. It's time for a complete reform of the company to provide the products and services to the level they claim they provide. For starters how they check a coins final condition before they package it, arms length is simply not good enough when for the same amount of time they can easily bring a coin closer to the face and check it. Arms length is not a good enough metric for quality when doing final checks on modern proof coins, it wouldn't take any longer changing this method so why keep it this way. 

If you have any evidence of the fake coins please let me know.

[ZRPMs]

I have always found the RM to be overpriced, but the Historic coins series is on some other level. They seam to be moving in to the realms of these mail order mint where they get you signed up on a mailing list and just push anything in to the customer. I had a friend that got into trouble financially with one for extremely over priced coin collections from one of these mail order mints.(marketing companies).

 UK 1965 Winston Churchill Death Year Sovereign (westminstercollection.com) for example from a mail order mint, This is the type of marketing and selling the Royal Mint seem to be promoting now. Shame on them for price gouging and sullying the mints reputation. It will do no end of damage to themselves and the hobby. I think the Which group did a report price gouging campaign as recently as September 2023.

 

[ZRPMs]

Just spotted this on The Royal Mint's website whilst going through their Guinea offerings, A 1678 Charles II Guinea, Fourth Bust, Very Fine Condition, Price:£9,420.00. I gave just under £600 for my 1673 Charles II Guinea August last year. Condition as good if not better.

[tpcob303]

 

9 hours ago, BackyardBullion said:

If you have any evidence of the fake coins please let me know.

 

I had seen on a grading returns video a while back regarding a US gold coin. Can't remember a denomination but it was pre 1933 gold. I would have to look for the video amongst many others on YT. But I remember the person saying it had been bought from the RM but had returned from ngc as not genuine.