Bullion coins quality

[MarioZG]

I'm aware that bullion gold coins might come with some defects, but as I'm struggling to find guidelines what is acceptable and what is too much...

In particular, are marks below something you'd expect and accept on bullion coin bought as new?

 

Edited February 9, 2023 by MarioZG

[James32]

11 hours ago, MarioZG said:

I'm aware that bullion gold coins might come with some defects, but as I'm struggling to find guidelines what is acceptable and what is too much...

In particular, are marks below something you'd expect and accept on bullion coin bought as new?

 

Unfortunately because these coins have raised areas and are stored and transported in tubes, clanging together, these mark's are a common occurrence. Disheartening especially considering the premium, but par for the course unfortunately.

If the RM would adopt the Perth Mint way, and place coins in capsules at point of Minting, everything would be supremely better for everyone, especially us.

You could try appealing to your dealer and see if they will honour a replacement, some will, but some will hide behind the "bullion" banner.

Edited February 10, 2023 by James32

[modofantasma]

9 hours ago, MarioZG said:

In particular, are marks below something you'd expect and accept on bullion coin bought as new?

 

Fairly normal for bullion yes. 

If you get something like this then probably send the dealer a message though

 

[LightningSilver]

Normal scuffs I'd say. Some new sovereigns have looked like that for me but I buy mainly just for gold content unless I can pick an actual coin on here to buy. 

[dicker]

Within reasonable condition for bullion.  It’s pot luck. Some come in near perfect condition, others not so much.  

[GoldDiggerDave]

Also buying bullion coins in blisters is no guarantee of a better quality coin as it’s gone thought the same manufacturing process, they are minted, mass produced and are stacked into horizontal hoppers before they go into tubs or blisters this is where the most contact marks happen………as for guidelines as long as it is what it is in terms of purity and overall specification diameter etc then they can send it scratched and dinged as much as they like.  These are solely made for the bullion content.

[TeaTime]

I don't (and never will) agree with those who state a 'bullion' coin is just a lump of PM - making condition irrelevant. If you are paying a premium for a manufactured item then you have every right to expect something in good condition... It's like receiving a brand new toaster covered in dings and scratches and being told that it will 'still produce toast so what's the problem'. That would be unacceptable to pretty much everyone.

Dictionary definitions of bullion 'gold or silver in bulk before coining, or valued by weight' ..''metal in the mass'  etc etc

Obviously there is a problem for re-sellers of coins who receive poor quality product from the RM. But that is their problem and should not become the end purchasers problem. Ever. Passing on defective coins rather than taking the issue up with the manufacturer is something that would not be accepted anywhere else. 

The only time selling blemished coins is acceptable is when they are clearly described as such (and priced accordingly). Using a catch-all 'bullion' description, as well as having no valid definition when it comes to coins, is lazy and morally suspect.

Obviously that is my opinion as a collector. A stacker may well have a different view. 😎

 

[James32]

2 minutes ago, TeaTime said:

I don't (and never will) agree with those who state a 'bullion' coin is just a lump of PM - making condition irrelevant. If you are paying a premium for a manufactured item then you have every right to expect something in good condition... It's like receiving a brand new toaster covered in dings and scratches and being told that it will 'still produce toast so what's the problem'. That would be unacceptable to pretty much everyone.

Dictionary definitions of bullion 'gold or silver in bulk before coining, or valued by weight' ..''metal in the mass'  etc etc

Obviously there is a problem for re-sellers of coins who receive poor quality product from the RM. But that is their problem and should not become the end purchasers problem. Ever. Passing on defective coins rather than taking the issue up with the manufacturer is something that would not be accepted anywhere else. 

The only time selling blemished coins is acceptable is when they are clearly described as such (and priced accordingly). Using a catch-all 'bullion' description, as well as having no valid definition when it comes to coins, is lazy and morally suspect.

Obviously that is my opinion as a collector. A stacker may well have a different view. 😎

 

I fekin like you....therefore absolute tripe sold on here as bullion 😆 

[CazLikesCoins]

I've bought a couple of bullion sovereigns from Costco over the past months and found them to be in really nice condition with no marks or scratches that I could see. Although the current price of around £410 seems a bit dear now compared to some online retailers and that's put me off buying them sadly.

Edited February 10, 2023 by CazLikesCoins
Edited to include type of sovereign.

[iiann]

12 hours ago, James32 said:

Unfortunately because these coins have raised areas and are stored and transported in tubes, clanging together, these mark's are a common occurrence. Disheartening especially considering the premium, but par for the course unfortunately.

If the RM would adopt the Perth Mint way, and place coins in capsules at point of Minting, everything would be supremely better for everyone, especially us.

You could try appealing to your dealer and see if they will honour a replacement, some will, but some will hide behind the "bullion" banner.

RM must surely be aware of production methods employed by Perth Mint.  I  watched a good video on Chards website, an interview with their head honcho done during the pandemic a couple of years ago in which he was asked how the pandemic was affecting them and what they were doing. The prime thing I remember from this was him saying “ We’re cleaning everything and getting rid of  contaminants. “  The impression I got was that this was more akin to working in an operating theatre than an industrial environment. 
Perth Mint have a peerless reputation for a quality product and the ones I have bought are flawless. @GoldDiggerDave has a very interesting video on the so called ‘ping test’ on Gillick sovereigns from the 50’s and 60’s which says it all. The legacy of these times may be a reason for the problem. It can’t surely be that RM are penny pinchers. Me personally, I could squeeze the  sh* t out of a buffalo, I hang on so tight, but I still appreciate quality and a little more spent on attaining it would I think, be the right direction of travel.

[beacon]

A close up camera shot will always look worse than in the flesh. Pretty sure in person it's hardly noticeable. 

Edited February 10, 2023 by beacon

[GoldDiggerDave]

.

Edited March 5, 2023 by GoldDiggerDave

[Stuntman]

Sadly it's kind of the luck of the draw.  

Thankfully most of the bullion coins I have received have been pretty good.  Perhaps about 1 in 8 have had defects that are noticeable under magnification.  Of those, only 1 or 2 coins have defects which are properly noticeable with the naked eye.

If I have received a semi-numismatic bullion coin with noticeable defects under magnification, I have tended to order another one and then keep the better one in the collection.  The other one remains in the stack and will get sold at some point.  In some cases the difference is extremely marginal and the 'worse' coin is probably still acceptable to the majority of people.

Ordering duplicate gold bullion coins is probably beyond my means now, given the increase in spot and also a reduction in my own income.  So I will probably have to accept the luck of the draw from now on.

Proofs/Brilliant Uncirculated coins are a different story.  I'd expect these to have zero or minimal defects, otherwise I'd probably return the coin and ask for a replacement or refund.  I only have 3 such coins (4th one STILL not delivered...) and so far they have been acceptable to me.

[Sovstacker]

10 hours ago, TeaTime said:

I don't (and never will) agree with those who state a 'bullion' coin is just a lump of PM - making condition irrelevant. If you are paying a premium for a manufactured item then you have every right to expect something in good condition... It's like receiving a brand new toaster covered in dings and scratches and being told that it will 'still produce toast so what's the problem'. That would be unacceptable to pretty much everyone.

Dictionary definitions of bullion 'gold or silver in bulk before coining, or valued by weight' ..''metal in the mass'  etc etc

Obviously there is a problem for re-sellers of coins who receive poor quality product from the RM. But that is their problem and should not become the end purchasers problem. Ever. Passing on defective coins rather than taking the issue up with the manufacturer is something that would not be accepted anywhere else. 

The only time selling blemished coins is acceptable is when they are clearly described as such (and priced accordingly). Using a catch-all 'bullion' description, as well as having no valid definition when it comes to coins, is lazy and morally suspect.

Obviously that is my opinion as a collector. A stacker may well have a different view. 😎

 

You are on my mind. I couldn't agree more.

[dicker]

46 minutes ago, Sovstacker said:

You are on my mind. I couldn't agree more.

When you willingly buy coins that are delivered in tubes and not in capsules this is what you get.

If you want “perfect” bullion coins then have a relationship with a dealer or buy from someone who publishes photos of individual coins.

 

 

[LawrenceChard]

On 10/02/2023 at 09:36, TeaTime said:

I don't (and never will) agree with those who state a 'bullion' coin is just a lump of PM - making condition irrelevant. If you are paying a premium for a manufactured item then you have every right to expect something in good condition... It's like receiving a brand new toaster covered in dings and scratches and being told that it will 'still produce toast so what's the problem'. That would be unacceptable to pretty much everyone.

Dictionary definitions of bullion 'gold or silver in bulk before coining, or valued by weight' ..''metal in the mass'  etc etc

Obviously there is a problem for re-sellers of coins who receive poor quality product from the RM. But that is their problem and should not become the end purchasers problem. Ever. Passing on defective coins rather than taking the issue up with the manufacturer is something that would not be accepted anywhere else. 

The only time selling blemished coins is acceptable is when they are clearly described as such (and priced accordingly). Using a catch-all 'bullion' description, as well as having no valid definition when it comes to coins, is lazy and morally suspect.

Obviously that is my opinion as a collector. A stacker may well have a different view. 😎

 

I too would prefer it if all newly minted bullions coins came without scuffs or other handling marks.

We @ChardsCoinandBullionDealer do discuss production quality with the Royal Mint, and we do state where relevant, that bullion coins we supply may have bagmarks, etc. We have always made efforts to clearly and accurately describe products we offer for sale. As we now receive direct supplies of coins from the Royal Mint, we are under an obligation not to undermine their "brand".

I am sure many of our competitors fail to be as transparent or accurate in their descriptions as we do. I would prefer we did not need to "manage customers' expectations". In some cases, I am sure that some of these have become higher in recent years, possibly partly due to the rise in "slabbing" on the UK market.

Your definitions of bullion are incomplete. Here, we provide more thorough definitions:

https://www.chards.co.uk/guides/what-is-bullion/213

The most important and relevant point is "Bullion, a term used to describe precious metals that are valued for their weight and purity rather than for any collectible or numismatic value."

Of course, it would be preferable if bullion coins could be supplied perfect, without any scuffs, bagmarks, blemishes, etc., rather than simply in "Mint Condition", this last expression could be an interesting topic for debate, because most people use it synonymously with "perfect", which has hardly ever been the case during the 2,500 years of coin production.

Another possible option would be the existence and production of "Brilliant Uncirculated" versions of bullion coins at a slighly higher premium if necessary, and if there was sufficient demand. This does of course somewhat contradict the definition of "bullion"!

I am of course aware that many mints produce proof versions of their "bullion" coins, which get sold at much higher premiums, but again this in itself is arguably an oxymoron.

😎

Edited February 12, 2023 by LawrenceChard

[TeaTime]

The simple matter is that a damaged or poorly minted coin has lost the (hefty) premium paid by the purchaser instantly - the coin to most people then becomes 'bullion' and will be considered as a commodity (valued solely on spot price) rather than a coin. How on earth the RM (and others) has managed to persuade people that this is acceptable is beyond me.  

There is always an expectation with a manufactured product that you will receive something of a quality that matches the cost.  In the case of RM  coins sadly, this is often not the case. 

No reasonable person expects perfection with a mass-produced item, but when the premiums are so high, a certain level of quality should be achieved. I guess that the RMs view of acceptable falls well below that of the average purchaser. 

It is unfortunate that, as it stands, dealers (the biggest purchaser from RM) have no incentive to call out the manufacturer when they can simply re-sell the product with a catch-all 'bullion' description. That's why i detest the use of that word when it comes to coins.

 

 

 

 

  

 

 

[CazLikesCoins]

1 hour ago, TeaTime said:

The simple matter is that a damaged or poorly minted coin has lost the (hefty) premium paid by the purchaser instantly - the coin to most people then becomes 'bullion' and will be considered as a commodity (valued solely on spot price) rather than a coin. How on earth the RM (and others) has managed to persuade people that this is acceptable is beyond me.  

Probably by the same way companies lead us to believe CDs are better than vinyl and digital cameras are better than film. They wrap inferior products in convenience and we buy because they charge a discouragingly higher price to get what we'd actually prefer. That said, I've not had any real howlers when buying bullion. I probably haven't bought enough of it to get stung yet lol.

[gji25]

2 hours ago, CazLikesCoins said:

Probably by the same way companies lead us to believe CDs are better than vinyl and digital cameras are better than film. They wrap inferior products in convenience and we buy because they charge a discouragingly higher price to get what we'd actually prefer. That said, I've not had any real howlers when buying bullion. I probably haven't bought enough of it to get stung yet lol.

But cd,s are better than vinyl and digital camera,s are better than film 

[CazLikesCoins]

1 hour ago, gji25 said:

But cd,s are better than vinyl and digital camera,s are better than film 

Possibly. But I'm an old stick in the mud and I don't like these new fangled gizmos. They'll never catch on  

[pricha]

It seems a bit OCD to me.  Coins get knocked about. It happens.  Many on the forum have sold proofs that are basically no longer proof and accept a loss of premium without tears. 

The cost to the mint to treat every coin minted as a proof would be huge , and the cost passed on to the customer.  

I'd say if you wanted to avoid paying premium on gold coins then buy bars. 

If you want perfection ( as best as you can hope for ) buy proof coins. 

Wanting the best of both worlds is not going to happen. 

 

Edited February 11, 2023 by pricha

[Petra]

At the end of the day, look at the actual mint process. The way they are made, packaged and sold then it is a wonder there is not more damage to ‘bullion’ coins. You pay less for them and they are not studied (usually) under a x5 loupe. Like the coins in your pocket, amazing not more damaged coins! Not seen any type of damage on any bullion coins that I have purchased. Just makes me laugh at people sell ‘proof’ coins that have been handled! All this fuss, why take a proof coin out of it’s capsule?🤔🧐🫢

[LawrenceChard]

1 hour ago, pricha said:

It seems a bit OCD to me.  Coins get knocked about. It happens.  Many on the forum have sold proofs that are basically no longer proof and accept a loss of premium without tears. 

The cost to the mint to treat every coin minted as a proof would be huge , and the cost passed on to the customer.  

I'd say if you wanted to avoid paying premium on gold coins then buy bars. 

If you want perfection ( as best as you can hope for ) buy proof coins. 

Wanting the best of both worlds is not going to happen. 

 

"Wanting the best of both worlds is not going to happen."

Wanting it does happen, getting it doesn't!

 

[SidS]

On 10/02/2023 at 07:54, modofantasma said:

Fairly normal for bullion yes. 

If you get something like this then probably send the dealer a message though

 

That's beautiful. It's the rare 'New Pence' variety! 😁

[LawrenceChard]

On 09/02/2023 at 22:05, MarioZG said:

I'm aware that bullion gold coins might come with some defects, but as I'm struggling to find guidelines what is acceptable and what is too much...

In particular, are marks below something you'd expect and accept on bullion coin bought as new?

There is another factor which you have probably not realised.

Although you did not state which type of gold bullion coins you meant, your images were of gold Yales of Beaufort. These are made of "fine gold", sometimes wrongly called 24ct, as are many modern gold bullion coins, and therefore are quite soft, and scratch and scuff more easily.

Older gold coins, originally made for the rough, tough world of circulation, such as gold sovereigns were, and still are, made of 22ct gold. Some countries, notably the USA used .900 fine gold. The addition of copper, and often silver, helped to make these harder, and therefore more resistant to scuffing and scratches. Add to tje fact that, as they were made primarily for trade and circulation use, very few people would be looking at them so critically and closely that they would notice slight imperfections. For example, when did you examine look at any shiny new pennies or twopences in your change for scratches, scuffs and bagmarks?

This provides another argument in favour of 22ct bullion coins rather than 24ct one. This does not mean or imply that I think all modern gold bullion coins should be 22ct. There are arguments both ways. Fine gold coins are the natural colour of gold, and not the awful coppery red / pink / rose which omitting the traces of silver causes.

😎

Edited March 5, 2023 by LawrenceChard
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