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4 minutes ago, AgAuEire said:

√Ćf they win, dont they lose twice (sellers premium)?¬† Is the risk worth it?

I guess they mastered the trick , they bid just enough to push the price without winning it , the whole point is you should not bid on your own item , simple as that .

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27 minutes ago, AgAuEire said:

√Ćf they win, dont they lose twice (sellers premium)?¬† Is the risk worth it?

Even if they do win it (surely always a risk) if they have multiples of a coin it potentially pushes up the market value so the risk then becomes worth it for them. There appear to be people happy to admit doing this.

There are no doubt times when people just want an item and happy to pay a lot more to win it and in reverse you can get lucky on some bargains in auction.

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1 hour ago, Nick1368 said:

Another guy said that there was fault with his keyboard and he accidentally bid like 20 times on a 2016 half sovereign which sold for nearly £1000 , and guess what ? the guy with the faulty keyboard who placed 20 bids on that coin , did not win it hahaha

That‚Äôs the trouble with new- fangled technology like the keyboard, it malfunctions all the time, I always seem to end up with multiple items of food in my store cupboard due to the keyboard sticking whilst doing my internet shop and only the other day I sent over ¬£2,500,000 to @Roy¬†for an item I bought from him that cost ¬£250 and @ChrisSilver¬†bagged a couple of grand off me when I renewed my Silver Forum subscription- something really needs to be done about the unreliability of keyboard technology ūüôĄ¬†

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Can’t say I am surprised, I have always assumed there is shill bidding in most online auctions. That’s why I always set my limit and once it’s reached, I leave the lot alone.

Fully agree, this practise is just wrong but not sure this will change anytime soon unfortunately 

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Hi @Nick1368 thanks for sharing on here. Every time this happens on the coin cabinet auctions I then see posts justifying how these are correct prices and they wont go lower. I then see someone on here or Facebook struggling to sell for half the price sometimes. Three graces was the best example of this. 

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It also needs to be pointed out that the people who constantly push these shill bidding stories are a couple of utter ‚Äėterrible‚Äô cans.

They spend their days on Facebook groups slandering all manner of people, whilst being barely able to string together a coherent sentence. 

The target of these people is usually the same person, a high profile former member of this site, who has my implicit trust, despite the slightly acrimonious departure from the forum.

Don’t let the modern trend for out and out paranoia, allow you to be misled by people who act out of jealousy and malice.

Edited by Shinus73
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24 minutes ago, Shinus73 said:

It also needs to be pointed out that the people who constantly push these shill bidding stories are a couple of utter ‚Äėterrible‚Äô cans.

They spend their days on Facebook groups slandering all manner of people, whilst being barely able to string together a coherent sentence. 

The target of these people is usually the same person, a high profile former member of this site, who has my implicit trust, despite the slightly acrimonious departure from the forum.

Don’t let the modern trend for out and out paranoia, allow you to be misled by people who act out of jealousy and malice.

In this instance the shill bidder has admitted in public that he was doing that AND that he would do so again if his coins go for below his buying price. And this was only today. 

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1 minute ago, ilovesilverireallydo said:

In this instance the shill bidder has admitted in public that he was doing that AND that he would do so again if his coins go for below his buying price. And this was only today. 

I’m aware of that and entirely disagree with the approach, but that doesn’t change the fact that the parties who are repeatedly relating this story, have their own agenda.

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1 minute ago, Shinus73 said:

I’m aware of that and entirely disagree with the approach, but that doesn’t change the fact that the parties who are repeatedly relating this story, have their own agenda.

Aye - I am quite aware of the person that has been doggedly pursuing this.
Its not new. Only thing is the person we are discussing is different to the one you mean as far as I know. And this person is just drawing attention to the situation more than it deserves. 


However I think @Nick1368 was right to highlight it in the forum now that we have a recorded public admitting of wrong doing. 

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10 minutes ago, ilovesilverireallydo said:

Aye - I am quite aware of the person that has been doggedly pursuing this.
Its not new. Only thing is the person we are discussing is different to the one you mean as far as I know. And this person is just drawing attention to the situation more than it deserves. 


However I think @Nick1368was right to highlight it in the forum now that we have a recorded public admitting of wrong doing. 

Yes, you would think he would have learned to let it lie by now, but apparently not.

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I feel it could be fixed as well. There are websites where you cannot try and buy things from 2 separate devices under the same IP address. I know they could still get friends to bid but I feel that could help. 
 

One website I have used to buy NFTs. I have signed in and joined a queue to buy a pack. I have tried to join this queue again on my phone and it resets the account for both of them. This could be repeated with someone trying to bid on 2 devices. 
 

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I purchased from an on-line auction of numismatic coins a few times last year, and have chosen not to again.

I am explicitly not naming which one or in which country but what I saw was a little odd in a couple of instances.

I am steering clear for the foreseeable future....where Sovs are concerned

US Coins didn't behave as oddly......from what I could see anyway.

Best

Dicker

 

Not my circus, not my monkeys

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I only bid what i think a coin is worth . I lost one bid and then a while later they said the person didn't pay up and would i like to purchase at the price i bid on. I was very pleased . I think most experienced collectors know a rough price of a coin's worth so why get carried away ? I've never had a problem with coin cabinet auctions. Their service has been first rate.   

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I haven't seen anyone admitting to doing it but there is absolutely no doubt it goes on extensively, both on ebay and on traditional auctions.

The problem could be easily solved if the software used by these auctioneers didn't allow it and it was banned by the companies themselves. Another way would be for auctioneers such as the CC to allow reserves which they seem reluctant to do.

I don't really have a problem with sellers bidding on their own coins up to their "reserve" and paying the commission if they inadvertently win the auction, except for the fact it puts on record a false sale, thus inflating the prices for people referencing past sales.

Profile picture with thanks to Carl Vernon

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Like most others I don't like it but only really for the reason @sovereignsteve points out - that creation of false records. These make it really difficult for those of us researching values.

As a buyer its your job to do your research, figure out what something is likely worth and what you are comfortable paying for it. Do that, stick to that and any games others are playing really shouldn't negatively impact anyone. The example being referred to here by the OP would only ever have been a problem because the other bidder got carried away with auction fever and simply wasn't being sensible.

Be sensible.

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13 hours ago, sovereignsteve said:

I don't really have a problem with sellers bidding on their own coins up to their "reserve"

I can’t really get on board with that. If the seller doesn’t like the terms of the auction (I.e. no reserves) they shouldn’t enter their coins in it. I don’t see it as anything other than fundamentally dishonest and as you say it artificially inflates prices for all. The danger of potentially winning their own auction isn’t a particularly good excuse for it either, I’m sure these individuals are extremely proficient at finding the right balance to ensure they don’t win.

I do remember the member that @Nick1368 was referring to in his original post and I was honestly surprised that some people genuinely believe this is an acceptable practice and par for the course. It begs the question of how many people/members shill on a regular basis without a second thought. It seems systemic.

Edited by Shep
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18 hours ago, pricha said:

 I've never had a problem with coin cabinet auctions. Their service has been first rate.   

don't get me wrong , I don't have any problem with the coin cabinet and the people who run it , the problem is the abuse of coin cabinet auction by some sellers and as a result some people maybe those who are new to coin collecting end up paying a lot more than a coin is worth and it also creates false prices in the market .

29 minutes ago, Shep said:

I can’t really get on board with that. If the seller doesn’t like the terms of the auction (I.e. no reserves) they shouldn’t enter their coins in it. I don’t see it as anything other than fundamentally dishonest. The danger of potentially winning their own auction isn’t an excuse for it either. 

I do remember the member that @Nick1368 was referring to in his original post and I was honestly surprised that some people genuinely believe this is an acceptable practice and par for the course. It begs the question of how many people/members shill on a regular basis without a second thought. It seems systemic.

yeah I am shocked as well , rule number one in any auction is that YOU SHOULD NOT AND CAN NOT BID ON YOUR OWN ITEM , it just doesn't get any simpler than that , I don't know what is so difficult to understand about it .

and it's absolutely disgusting that these people are admitting to their wrong doing in public without any shame whatsoever , they are proud of what they have done and they are laughing and joking about it and calling the winners of those coins idiots , coins that they sold in the dirtiest possible way , they have no dignity therefore no shame .

Edited by Nick1368
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I think off the wall bidding has always been used by Auctioneers to increase the bids to the reserve. Some Auctioneers use it too much, so will tend to stay away from them.

Not just in the coin market seems prolific throughout the Auctioneering Field, if you see the same items that sold the previous month with a hammer price,

back for sale the next month that is usually a good indictor.

It is the new form of this especially on Ebay, where they will bid till your bid is beaten, retract the bid, and put their bid in one below yours. 

This has happened me a few times, to the point, that if I want something, I will make sure, I only bid on the day, so as to read the auction. 

Again with this, it is greed playing a role, rather than letting the coin find it's own level, definitely not the nicer aspect of collecting in general.  

  

Edited by Wampum
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22 hours ago, GoldStatue said:

If you're selling something at auction and don't want to get ripped off couldn't you just set a reserve?

 

This would be the best idea, however I think the way some sellers look at a reserve, it is set, whereas with Shill bidding they can push the buyer to their max bid,

which might be £20  or £200 over the reserve depending on the persons want of the coin.

   

Edited by Wampum
wording
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@Nick1368 

Another guy said that there was fault with his keyboard and he accidentally bid like 20 times on a 2016 half sovereign which sold for nearly £1000 , and guess what ? the guy with the faulty keyboard who placed 20 bids on that coin , did not win it hahaha Anyways be careful when buying/selling coins on auctions , there are dishonest disgusting people out there who would and are doing things like this . 

I run 'Coins of the Realm Auctions' - Are you talking about the coin that sold in our auction on Saturday? If so, there were two bidders at the end of this Lot and both bid increments of £10 up until it sold. The buyer may not of wanted to pay this amount for his coin, but I can absolutely guarantee you that NO SHILL BIDDING is allowed in our auction, customers are not permitted to bid on their own submissions. If we believed this had taken place (and we can see every bid in the auction)  the sale of the Lot would be cancelled. We do sometimes have reserves on some of the lots which we have begun to put in the writeup so people understand that the reserve will be implemented before the LIVE auction if that item does not meet it's reserve it will not sell. However, this Lot you are referring to DID NOT have a reserve.

What I would say, if someone has experiencing technical difficulties during an auction they should contact us to discuss because if this customer had won I would have expected him to pay. So it is important any technical problems that involve the auction are reported.

I do take offence to people insinuating we are allowing shill bidding to go on in any auction. We do not, and every customer who bids and wins in our auction is pursued if they refuse to pay. Which I am happy to say has only happened on a few occasions.

What a lot of people do not realise is making these kind of throw away comments discourages customers attending auctions and it it damaging to a small business like ours. If you had ever had a conversation with me you would know I have integrity and would not allow this to happen in the auction.

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@CoinsOfTheRealmAuctions I don’t think they are insinuating you allow shill bidding I was under the impression it was another auction house people are speaking about.

Also just referring to the comment on facebook that a folder had slipped onto the enter key to keep bidding up an item but then the folder must have slipped off to stop that person from winning the coin in the end. 

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