Auction warning

[Wampum]

@CoinsOfTheRealmAuctions

Sorry if you thought my comments where against you, I was just mentioning some of my own experiences, with regards to Auctions in general,

and nothing was meant to be implied to anyone in particular, and my comment on Shill biding was merely my take on why that is the preferred method of some sellers.        

[CoinsOfTheRealmAuctions]

@FlorinCollector 'on a 2016 half sovereign which sold for nearly £1000 '

this was sold in our auction ,CC do not have this coin in their auction. I know this is just conversation, but it is damaging the auction business especially as it's in a public demain. I just wish people would  think about what they are writing. The guy who wrote this is WARNING people off buying from the platform.  so let me be clear, if anyone wants to call and ask questions about how we run our auction I will happily speak with them as we have absolutely nothing to hide.

 

[Bruce06]

I think this is not a problem of a particular auction house.  Actually, I think the problem is existed in many auctions everywhere, in Hong Kong, UK, US, all same.  If you look carefully in some timed auctions, you may find some items are with early bids at high price, but some at similar or higher quality are without bid at all.  I think the most important is to stick with your own preset price and with discipline.  However, it's hard to execute sometimes, and some impulse or emotional bids are placed in auction 😅😅.

[Nick1368]

37 minutes ago, CoinsOfTheRealmAuctions said:

@Nick1368 

Another guy said that there was fault with his keyboard and he accidentally bid like 20 times on a 2016 half sovereign which sold for nearly £1000 , and guess what ? the guy with the faulty keyboard who placed 20 bids on that coin , did not win it hahaha Anyways be careful when buying/selling coins on auctions , there are dishonest disgusting people out there who would and are doing things like this . 

I run 'Coins of the Realm Auctions' - Are you talking about the coin that sold in our auction on Saturday? If so, there were two bidders at the end of this Lot and both bid increments of £10 up until it sold. The buyer may not of wanted to pay this amount for his coin, but I can absolutely guarantee you that NO SHILL BIDDING is allowed in our auction, customers are not permitted to bid on their own submissions. If we believed this had taken place (and we can see every bid in the auction)  the sale of the Lot would be cancelled. We do sometimes have reserves on some of the lots which we have begun to put in the writeup so people understand that the reserve will be implemented before the LIVE auction if that item does not meet it's reserve it will not sell. However, this Lot you are referring to DID NOT have a reserve.

What I would say, if someone has experiencing technical difficulties during an auction they should contact us to discuss because if this customer had won I would have expected him to pay. So it is important any technical problems that involve the auction are reported.

I do take offence to people insinuating we are allowing shill bidding to go on in any auction. We do not, and every customer who bids and wins in our auction is pursued if they refuse to pay. Which I am happy to say has only happened on a few occasions.

What a lot of people do not realise is making these kind of throw away comments discourages customers attending auctions and it it damaging to a small business like ours. If you had ever had a conversation with me you would know I have integrity and would not allow this to happen in the auction.

yes obviously we know auctions wouldn't allow people to bid on their own coins but sounds like people are making second/fake accounts or using friends and family accounts just for shill bidding and I don't think you can do much about it .

like I said in my comments I don't believe auction houses are doing anything wrong and it's not your fault that these things are happening and I am sorry if my post is causing damages to your business but I am just looking out for my fellow coin collectors and doing my best raise awareness about the current situation .

it's one thing assuming shill bidding happens in auctions , it's another thing when people proudly admit to shill biding .

[CoinsOfTheRealmAuctions]

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[CoinsOfTheRealmAuctions]

@Nick1368 We can see the customers who bid in auction. We know if they are new, regular or returning customers. When people sign up to the auction most will upload their credit card details to enter the auction. We do offer customers to remove this by asking if they would like to sign up each and every month, but generally most of these are returning customers.

The majority of oversea's buyers are asked for proof of ID/ proof of address and proof of them bidding somewhere likewise in auction. So many precautions are taken. 

UK bidders are governed by UK law, so therefore if there is a problem with payment the relevant steps are taken to recover those unpaid invoices.

Hope this puts your mind at ease.

 

[richatthecroft]

On 26/07/2021 at 09:43, Nick1368 said:

just wanted to give you heads up , be very careful when trying to buy coins on Auctions like the coin cabinet for example , a few people have admitted that they have been shill bidding on their own coins and they are not even ashamed of it .

 

I always looked at the coin cabinet and thought something doesn't feel right  , now I know why .

one person who used to be a member of this forum admitted that he has been bidding on his own coins to make sure they don't go for a lower price than he bought them himself and he is so proud of his doing that he says he has no regrets and he would do it again and again .

@CoinsOfTheRealmAuctions As quoted from the initial post to his topic, Nick made it very clear which Auction House he was talking about in terms of the people citing that they have been involved in Shill bidding.  

He didn’t insinuate anything- he just pointed out what apparently ‘a few people’ had written and put in the public domain- and that they had done this shill previously- in terms of bidding on their own lots.
He also stated that one person had ‘no regrets’ and ‘would do it again and again’. 

Louise, you have responded by stating the following- so it looks like you have processes in place to stop this from overtly happening.   

43 minutes ago, CoinsOfTheRealmAuctions said:

I can absolutely guarantee you that NO SHILL BIDDING is allowed in our auction, customers are not permitted to bid on their own submissions. If we believed this had taken place (and we can see every bid in the auction)  the sale of the Lot would be cancelled.

I’m guessing however, that anyone intent on involving themselves in this underhand practice won’t actually use their own customer account to carry out the shill but do so covertly. 

Louise, I am certainly not insinuating anything by my statement above, just pointing out that this practice could happen despite your best efforts.

52 minutes ago, CoinsOfTheRealmAuctions said:

I run 'Coins of the Realm Auctions' - Are you talking about the coin that sold in our auction on Saturday? If so, there were two bidders at the end of this Lot and both bid increments of £10 up until it sold.

@Nick1368 cited a 2016 Half Sovereign and a person who apparently stated that due to a ‘faulty keyboard’ he had bid 20 times on a coin- and apparently didn’t win the coin.  

Given that you sold a 2016 Half Sovereign for almost 3 times your Auction guide price, then he was likely citing your Auction- but I guess, not insinuating anything- he was simply re-telling a story of what someone had put out in the public domain. 

Louise, in your response to Nick, you make it very clear that you would want your customers to get in touch with you if they experienced technical difficulties- and I’m pretty sure you would listen to the customer and sort it out too- but if the customer with the technical difficulties- in this case the customer  who is the underbidder- doesn’t get in touch with you, then you will have no reason to think that customers bids were anything more than being placed with consideration and not due to technical reasons. 

To sum up, my interpretation is that @Nick1368 didn’t insinuate anything about the Coins of the Realm. 
 

 

[CoinsOfTheRealmAuctions]

Thank you for your summary. The title of the post is AUCTION WARNING - and real Lots have been quoted so therefore I think I have the right to put my side forward given it's my auction that is being spoken about.

I know Nick probably didn't think this was going to cause a stir, but there are a lot of discussions on Social Media and Forums which are damaging the industry and because we have nothing to hide I have no reservations on defending the platform. What this does is create a fear of submitting and buying in auction. When there shouldn't be. If someone is worried about bidding LIVE then all they have to do is put their pre bid in and leave it. That way they won't bid higher than they intended. Luckily this platform allows pre-bidding and a Live enviroment.

 

[Bruce06]

2 minutes ago, CoinsOfTheRealmAuctions said:

Thank you for your summary. The title of the post is AUCTION WARNING - and real Lots have been quoted so therefore I think I have the right to put my side forward given it's my auction that is being spoken about.

I know Nick probably didn't think this was going to cause a stir, but there are a lot of discussions on Social Media and Forums which are damaging the industry and because we have nothing to hide I have no reservations on defending the platform. What this does is create a fear of submitting and buying in auction. When there shouldn't be. If someone is worried about bidding LIVE then all they have to do is put their pre bid in and leave it. That way they won't bid higher than they intended. Luckily this platform allows pre-bidding and a Live enviroment.

 

agree, stick with your own preset target with discipline is important.

[sovereignsteve]

A while ago there was a thread about this very issue, or it may have been part of another.

IIRC Russell seemed to have a lot of knowledge about this; I think he mentioned a certain auction platform that many auction houses used that did allow the seller to bid on their items.

I believe he also said that this practice is allowed and rife on certain international auctions and in fact is specifically allowed in the T&C of some British auctioneers.

My memory could well be a bit suspect on this matter so please, nobody take this as accurate unless or until someone can find the thread in question.

[sovereignsteve]

1 hour ago, CoinsOfTheRealmAuctions said:

We can see the customers who bid in auction

In the case of the 2016 half sovereign, you will also know who the seller was. That may be very revealing😉

[richatthecroft]

1 hour ago, CoinsOfTheRealmAuctions said:

Thank you for your summary. The title of the post is AUCTION WARNING - and real Lots have been quoted so therefore I think I have the right to put my side forward given it's my auction that is being spoken about.

You do have the assertive right to put your story forward and I applaud you and thank you for doing so.  I wanted to put forward in my summary, in a considered manner, that I didn’t think @Nick1368 had done anything to insinuate any in-proprietary EXCEPT to highlight the blatant underhand and unethical actions of others.

1 hour ago, CoinsOfTheRealmAuctions said:

I know Nick probably didn't think this was going to cause a stir, but there are a lot of discussions on Social Media and Forums which are damaging the industry and because we have nothing to hide I have no reservations on defending the platform. What this does is create a fear of submitting and buying in auction. When there shouldn't be.

The heading AUCTION WARNING for me, was rather an ironic title to the topic rather than a shocking one.  

I’m old fashioned and remember the days pre- internet, of having to travel miles and miles to physical Auction Houses and bid in person, buy a catalogue and sit through hours and hours of lots just to get a chance of bidding on one or two lots of interest- and sometimes come away empty handed and at considerable cost in time, effort and petrol.
 

 From my personal experience, the same old derogatory and inflammatory  discussions/ accusations have always being levelled by some people chattering among themselves toward Auction Houses/ Auctioneers, and chiefly with no actual evidence of impropriety of the establishment.  

But at the same time, I have had the occasion to know that I was cheated by an auctioneer taking bids off the wall and I had to call him out,  this has only happened once to me to date, and I still believe that Auctioneers are generally straight, and I have rarely cited this 30 year old story-  but it wouldn’t have stopped someone more vindictive from the chattering class, making accusations.  

Unfortunately (or fortunately)  Louise, we are not in the past and platforms such as that god-awful Farcebook and Twatter or indeed Forums such as this are ripe for nurturing damaging commentary of your industry and unfounded gossip can potentially cause damage to businesses - and spread quickly to vast audiences unlike in the past, where audiences were tiny.  

The problem you have in the Auction industry is public perception.  Much like Estate Agents, Politicians and Used Car Salesman is that there is, rightly or wrongly an element of mistrust as a starting point. 

But fortunately, most people will take an objective view and I would say only a small amount of people listen to the rubbish littering the internet in general,  and most people will make their own minds up and not be influenced by the chattering classes.  
 

in terms of the pre-bidding you point out- I kind of see the point- but being a tight Yorkshireman, it’s not for me- I would hate being a potential maiden bidder!

1 hour ago, CoinsOfTheRealmAuctions said:

What this does is create a fear of submitting and buying in auction. When there shouldn't be. If someone is worried about bidding LIVE then all they have to do is put their pre bid in and leave it. That way they won't bid higher than they intended. Luckily this platform allows pre-bidding and a Live enviroment.

 

Edited July 27, 2021 by richatthecroft

[CoinsOfTheRealmAuctions]

@sovereignsteve  Russell F?  He doesn't run an auction house and nor does he submit to COR. So he wouldn't have a clue on how we run our auction.  Though he may be familiar with the platform as he promotes CC. Even though we use the same platform , we adopt very different methods as most will know. CC start all lots 10% below gold with no reserve, and we do not. We either have a reserve on the Lot or we start high enough to cover the reserve. 

Shill bidding is NOT allowed in the UK. It is illegal. Auction houses have the right to protect the reserve of the consigner and that is it. This for us has to be in writing before the auction begins.  

I believe international Auctions have different laws and maybe this is what you remember in the conversation.

Best regards

 

Louise

 

[greendragon]

i found this in the terms and conditions of a local auction house

(c) ******* Auctioneers & Valuers Ltd, any ******* Auctioneers & Valuers Ltd Affiliated Company, the Seller or any agent acting on its behalf may bid for any lot or lots offered for sale at the auction.

so it seems they allow a seller to bid on their own lot?

they do dot normally auction coins, though they have in the past lotted silver and gold coins and some collectables ( paddington 50p etc)

 

[sovereignsteve]

2 hours ago, greendragon said:

i found this in the terms and conditions of a local auction house

(c) ******* Auctioneers & Valuers Ltd, any ******* Auctioneers & Valuers Ltd Affiliated Company, the Seller or any agent acting on its behalf may bid for any lot or lots offered for sale at the auction.

so it seems they allow a seller to bid on their own lot?

they do dot normally auction coins, though they have in the past lotted silver and gold coins and some collectables ( paddington 50p etc)

 

Yes, I think this sort of this was pointed out in the thread I mentioned.

[StackemHigh]

I hardly ever buy secondhand coin or precious metal without viewing first. I will view photos first and then a viewing in the hand. The only exceptions would be the sales forum here and on only one other occasion. The internet is a cool place for research and buying with a return policy.

I have in the past bought LMU coins after seeing in an internet only auction and bought them with confidence and IMO i wouldn't have been able to buy them elsewhere.

I do know that a few of my friends that buy most of their collection this way and i often buy from them too.

Whenever any good thing comes along there will be some that will use it to their advantage, Look at LP's and cassettes, VHS to VHS or DVD copying.

Any type of auction house, market place can be very expensive places if you don't keep your wits about you.

I was looking a used omega watch in a recent auction and it went for double the top estimate! expensive? yes. Shill bidding i would say impossible to tell. I watched two grown men bid more and more money to get the timepiece.

[sovtsf]

Just to add I’ve had a great experience using COTR auctions over the last year, the service has been outstanding and any questions thoroughly answered with great advice.

While people can in theory bid for each other’s items on auction sites there is also the fact that more often two people really want a certain and and pay above the expected price. There’s been a lot more items going for under expected market value across auctions than over lately and there have been plenty of bargains across the board. 
 

These low fee online platform auctions offer a great option for sellers and buyers, I wouldn’t like to be a traditional auction house charging huge premiums as I can only see their market share reducing. 

[dangelo]

I agree on the buyer beware warning 100% ...

There is a specific auction in the UK I see on saleroom online that is doing this for sure - I see coins go up to way past their bullion and numismatic value in the bid amount alone, so adding fees whould be stupid prices.  But, then in the next auction - the same coins are there again!  Either the house or seller is bidding them up, then they are "selling" but in fact no one is paying those stupid prices and the same coins appear in the next sale again.  Sometimes this lasts over several sales until one idiot who is a real bidder puts a bid on and wins, then the coin is finally sold.  I've seen this happen on a variety of coins over and over again.  But it's not widespread - it seems to be the same few auction houses doing this - what I would call a fraud and scam to be honest.

Examples - generic canadian maples & US silver eagles - "selling" for 40.00 each and terrible condition britannias (covered in milkspots which should be only worth spot price) "selling" for 40.00.

Something else I see is coins "selling" at GOOD prices - hammer goes down "SOLD" at maybe -20% under the market prices BUT next auction - the same coin is on sale again!  If it's not made the reserve it should hammer down as "PASSED" not "SOLD"!  But I think these cases are fake bids, house bids or seller bids who are winning by mistake and then the coin has to go back in the next auction looking for a victim.

I think it's a good idea to watch a few auctions for each auction house before you decide to trust them, at least you will get an idea of what the selling prices are like and you can see any trends in coins re-appearing over and over again and of course on the live videos - you can see some of the dishonest auctioneers inventing phantom bids "I can go straight in at X pounds!"  and also hesitating for so long before bringing the hammer down if it's a fake bid... sometimes pausing for a minute or two and almost begging someone real to put the final bid on and speaking all kinds of cr*p like "very rare one this"  "last chance"  "is that it?"  "only this price for this"  "you could get double this price at the market" and all the other desperate and dishonest phrases you could think of...  the best one i heard is an auctioneer shouting how RARE coins are that have mintages of 1 to 3 million and only a couple of years old and how you will "not find another one"... etc...