UnoWho

Hey @BarryWoods,

Is this the first time you are buying into the Royal Mint hype? This has happened before and several times too.

Nothing will change - no matter who you speak with, in the Mint

I don't know how many of these so called Gothic Crowns you have bought. If you can keep them, great. Else, cut your losses and take some time off from new releases.

I also don't know who this "dealer" or "trade partner" is. It was made very clear that only Mint Marque customers will be offered the plain edge. I know two fellow collectors / flippers / hobbyists who spend enough to be "Platinum Mint Marque" members, but, deliberately choose not to. Both have account managers and weren't offered the "plain edge" version since it was strictly for Mint Marque Customers. Therefore, whoever you bought these coins from would have bought from a Mint Marque customer. 

Yes, there are exceptions to the rule (there always will be). For example, the Mint Marque customers were offered a choice between the plain and the milled edge versions. They couldn't get both. However, there are some select few who received both. Most people here will know who the exceptions are. However, that's not the point. The point is, there is no way these things can be enforced. Also, as it has been mentioned somewhere on the thread above, the model is working well for RM. They already know what is happening. Their staff are on this forum as well as the Facebook Group I think you are referring to. Interestingly, I sometimes get asked by fellow numismatists if they didn't get offered a certain denomination by their account manager because they "flipped" the coin on Facebook! Although they are "watching", nothing will change. Nothing will change, because this is not the first time this has happened. They know it is a cycle. And I know nothing will change because I had discussed this with key staff at RM, during what was then, my monthly catch-up with them. Now these are less frequent. However, the same personnel, a key decision maker had tried to explain to me the rationale behind having a Mint Marque exclusive plain edge version. I don't buy the rationale. I mostly do not agree with their thinking. However, this brings them the most profit and hence why will they do anything different?

Did you know that even you could become a reseller of Royal Mint coins if you wanted to? However, did you also know that if you did decide to do that, you won't just be able to buy the Great Engravers series. You will also have to buy the Peter Rabbits and the Little Miss Sunshines. You won't just be able to buy the 2oz gold proofs. You will also have to buy the silver proofs. How do you think these dealers manage to stay in business? They end up making losses with the less popular releases and then these key releases (usually just once or twice in a year) make up for those losses. Did you also know that these dealers wouldn't have got the plain edge variety directly from the Mint? They would have had to buy them from Mint Marque customers at a premium. 

Lets say you have an issue with the Mint Marque customers reselling these coins. Although there are five levels of Mint Marque customers, majority of the limited editions go to the Platinum Plus and Platinum customers. Do you personally know any genuine collectors who never sell coins after spending more than £100,000 a year with a single mint? Let's take the example of the second coin in the Music Legends series - Elton John. The 2oz gold proof Elton John recently sold at an auction that only yielded 20% above spot price (and over £1,250 less than RRP) to the consigner after buyer's premium? The mintage of this coin is just 50! These were mostly exclusively snapped up by Platinum Plus Mint Marque customers. What does this tell us? There aren't even 50 genuine collectors of that series. However, the first coin in the series has rarely been seen for sale or auction in the past year. The series got ruined as the mintage numbers for the third coin in the series were tripled! and even more for the fourth coin. This is how RM function. The Mint cannot sustain a business such as theirs solely on the basis of "genuine collectors". The collectors only exist if there is exclusivity. You either take the risk and buy into a series at its inception or leave it alone completely. What are 1/4 ounce gold proof Queen's Beasts selling for these days? Not more than £500 a piece (there could be one or two designs fetching more than the others and this figure is an average; based on my own buying and selling experience). Once again, this is less than RRP for most coins in the series. Who would have thought that such a popular series will be fetching negative returns for long term collectors? Sadly, this is the reality. 

Why do you think these coins - Gothic Crown restrikes - will do well in the long run? Do you know that the total mintage of this re-struck Gothic Crown in 2oz gold proof is more than twice that of the Una and the Lion restrike? Did you also know that originally the basis of selecting the designs for the series was that the original would have been struck in extremely limited numbers? Gothic Crown does not even fit the bill of the original criteria for selection since they were minted in relatively large numbers. Ultimately it is a business and RM will do what the market will buy into. Similarly, the hype around these releases was always created by dealers who decided to buy into an idea as long as the mintages were limited and the average public weren't buying into the series. When RM launched this series with the Una and the Lion, did you expect it to do as well as it did? Did you think the subsequent releases will "perform" in a similar fashion. Most people hadn't even heard of "The Three Graces" - the marble statue perhaps yes, but surely not the coin. Una and the Lion has been a legendary coin and therefore the demand for the restrike somewhat makes sense. What also worked in its favour is that the average public didn't buy into the concept initially. Which meant most of the allocation was bought up by dealers around the world. This restricted the supply in the open market and hence the price went up. Immediately there were calls upon the Mint to increase the mintage as they could now see the demand. Moreover, the Mint also wanted a piece of this pie. The subsequent releases even saw a 10oz version in both silver and gold. 

What next? My advice to anybody who asks me about buying commemorative coins is that if you get it directly from the Mint on release day, go for it. Keep it, if you like it. Flip it, if others like it more. However, if you don't get it on release day from the Mint, do not buy it from the secondary market (whether you want to call them "Trusted Trade Partners" or "Dealers" or "Annabelle" - they all form the secondary market) because of the hype. In fact, do not buy it at all  Just wait and watch and in a couple of years (or less) if you still want it, you will probably be paying less than RRP. Unlikely for coins like Una and the Lion, but, applies to most others.

5 hours ago, BarryWoods said:

Coin 2 - is actually the actual Gothic Crown.. !! 

  Exactly this.

The reverse is neither a Wyon design, nor the Gothic Crown. It was basically RM being greedy. I didn't buy it and don't care if that means I miss out on the portrait.

6 hours ago, BackyardBullion said:

Thoughts on recent sales and auction results

What do you think?

If you have a Gold version of the Gothic Crown what are your feelings right now?

Do you think the ship has sailed or are you confident there will be a tasty financial return in the future?

The whole series is on a decline. For me, this particular series was going to be in my collection for the longer term (unlike say, the Music Legends or Bond coins). Unfortunately, the higher mintages of the subsequent releases has ruined yet another series for me. People who buy with the sole intention to sell the coin(s) immediately upon receipt, give a false impression to RM that there are "x" number of genuine collectors of the series. This leads to an increased mintage, which, in turn results in diminished collector interest and ultimately, demise of the series. We have seen this with most such series.

Unpopular opinion I know, but, nobody will want these coins once the series is over. 

Thank you @TheCoinCabinet for these. Arrived today:

These arrived today. Very pleased with the result, especially the 1981 Quintuple 😊

Arrived today 😊

5oz gold proof Queen

Delighted to receive this in the post this morning - the Graded coin Prize Draw.

Many thanks to @ChrisSilver and the mystery forum member who very kindly donated this prize and has a beautiful handwriting for sure!

These two beauties have just arrived from one and only @arshimo2012. What a gent! Great service as always. Lovely stamps on the envelope too!

Thank you 😊

Wasn't planning on getting these, but, I guess gave into the hype.

Many thanks to Adele @TheCoinConnection for securing this. Excellent service as always!

Thanks a ton to @ChrisSilver and @BackyardBullion for the 10,000 members give away prize - a gorgeous piece of hand poured silver! Arrived today in a beautiful package. Something I'm going to cherish forever ❤️