Time to drag the Royal Mint's business model in to this century?

[BarryWoods]

Just now, James32 said:

Barry the dealer some you up like a rag doll/kipper 

Surely it's them you should direct your energy towards?

Both - The RM know how this is happening. I have to assume a blind eye , because profits  re good, queues on the website (how dis that happen - I'll sow you)   - They enable it by their 'business model' and  know it is going on, to be fair  proof nevr did very well at launch, stock git to trade etc. BUT  social media came along... coins started selling out secondary market boomed - Facebook groups with member s trading all started up, attracting thousands of followers, sale boomed private trading boomed.

 

But, it is fueling a speculative bubble that will burst and take the public down with it - imho

 

As at some point nobody will be buying........ and we know what happens next... no buyers,, lots of seller.s.  - How soon?

 

That and some of these VIP Customers - Are registered as limited companies - and sell Coins service, grading,  auction consignment - to there gullible  members of Private Coin Facebok grups they run, and also hype up coins, to push the market sales - all the members flood the RM website - then gratefully get the VIP RM 'customer' guy running his Facebook group to send off their coin for grading - money for him - rolling in - and several thousand chep silver coins with grade 69 and 70 and photos posted of these coins slabbed, and everyone thinks they are going to get rich -no, just a few peole are getting rich-  his special cpins instantly multiply in price) etc,etc 

 

That the same individual is an agent for companies that are also ROYAL MINT partners. is just sick!!  (this is Royal Mints problem - Big Time..)

And there loads of others doing similar things - hence the madness in prices over the last few years and the public rushing in, because sure fire investment - as they watch Youtube Videos of that same guy waving gold coins around. - which they have got, and will get to auction first, or flip again, because prices are even higher now.. and must secure some more,  EBAY, EBAY, EBAY.

 

Friends and family- Aunty and Granpa want coins to -  to invest their savings (sure fire growth vs 0.5% interest in the bank) big rush to the website - hardly any stock there - somehow despite no "direct dealer"  allocation from RM dealers have stock.. and better coins not on RM website - Gosh the thinking goes, they must have sold out really quickly at RM (but they were never there) VIP cutomers had them who were trade.. they see the prices BUT it is higher .. Must secure it, get some more, all sizes, then ask on your Facebook group what is this worth if it grades 70 - wise coin sage Facebook owners and fellow peers in the group speculate higher prices - Facebook guru - kindly send all his members coins for grading, for a fee. (because he has a business as a grading company same grading company that is PARTNER of the RM) and the bubble gets bigger....

 

 

Have been observing this for months.

Getting worried my coin will be ok - better get the portrait, buy a couple more on ebay (weeks making offers, getting a bargain - thought I'd beaten the herd, been clever.....)

 

Classic speculative bubble - this time some of how/what happens in plain site.. and my personal example. of being sucked in

 

Lots of public will get sucked in lose an awful lot of money, finacial disaster, family breakups, suicides that has all been done before..... fascinating and depressing and stressful  to be a part of this one...

 

Trying to talk to RM about issue for a while...

 

I thought I was never going to be caught like this (but a respected dealer- Trusted partner of RM, recommended after bullion buying, have you heard of Una and the Lion, The Three Graces,  (Our FAcebook Guru Friend and similar others did very well with them at auction, lots of silver graces facebook member coins graded - for a fee - aswell)

 

Dealer say to me on the phone (nothing writen fdown) well here is this Gothic Crown I can get  guaranteed pair a 'special pair' plain edge  VIP only, will double in value, maybe more - but it is expenesive - but I braved the website queue excited - 176 in it - As did thousands of other - NOT like the old days at the RM website - cobwebs - Proof, that this is a winner everyone else wants one is musty be good, it must be safe - and the bubble gets bigger just 'missed securing MY COIN -

Back to the Trusted RM delaer to get my special coins.  Get onto Ebay to get some more

Rushed out to get my sure fire winner and I was part of the crowd - that shows the Tulip Bubble happened, the South sea bubble happened, I had read it all and though how do intelligent people get sucked in - Well - here we are. 

 

Nearly got sucked in a lot further - actually quite depressed how I got caught (and I have been ) but it was nearly double.. (three Portraits)

 

So what happens next.

I can afford to take the hit, even if it goes to ZERO (an expensive lesson) but as I have made it clear to the RM thousands of member of the public are caught up in this, Bad things will happen to som eof them, and the RM is enabling it...

 

........................and now they know about it  (I linked this thread, in my last email to the RM today - it has now escalated past three RM account manager, when I eventually made it quite plain this is serious!

 

Take a look around, am I wrong?

 

And again really good to get this off my chest - I have been banging my head about his for week this for week

(and last week was most stressful week of my life - Family reasons, far more stressful than speculative coin buying Frenzies, that have happened before - look up 1980s coin crash - and how 'grading' fueled that one- this time social media has made it bigger and faster)

 

All of Course in my opinion, other opinions may differ.  What do you guys think?

 

 Goodnight - off to get two Big Macs - sadly - 'Interesting Times'  ahead

 

Barry

 

 

[Petra]

5 minutes ago, BarryWoods said:

Both - The RM know how this is happening. I have to assume a blind eye , because profits  re good, queues on the website (how dis that happen - I'll sow you)   - They enable it by their 'business model' and  know it is going on, to be fair  proof nevr did very well at launch, stock git to trade etc. BUT  social media came along... coins started selling out secondary market boomed - Facebook groups with member s trading all started up, attracting thousands of followers, sale boomed private trading boomed.

 

But, it is fueling a speculative bubble that will burst and take the public down with it - imho

 

As at some point nobody will be buying........ and we know what happens next... no buyers,, lots of seller.s.  - How soon?

 

That and some of these VIP Customers - Are registered as limited companies - and sell Coins service, grading,  auction consignment - to there gullible  members of Private Coin Facebok grups they run, and also hype up coins, to push the market sales - all the members flood the RM website - then gratefully get the VIP RM 'customer' guy running his Facebook group to send off their coin for grading - money for him - rolling in - and several thousand chep silver coins with grade 69 and 70 and photos posted of these coins slabbed, and everyone thinks they are going to get rich -no, just a few peole are getting rich-  his special cpins instantly multiply in price) etc,etc 

 

That the same individual is an agent for companies that are also ROYAL MINT partners. is just sick!!  (this is Royal Mints problem - Big Time..)

And there loads of others doing similar things - hence the madness in prices over the last few years and the public rushing in, because sure fire investment - as they watch Youtube Videos of that same guy waving gold coins around. - which they have got, and will get to auction first, or flip again, because prices are even higher now.. and must secure some more,  EBAY, EBAY, EBAY.

 

Friends and family- Aunty and Granpa want coins to -  to invest their savings (sure fire growth vs 0.5% interest in the bank) big rush to the website - hardly any stock there - somehow despite no "direct dealer"  allocation from RM dealers have stock.. and better coins not on RM website - Gosh the thinking goes, they must have sold out really quickly at RM (but they were never there) VIP cutomers had them who were trade.. they see the prices BUT it is higher .. Must secure it, get some more, all sizes, then ask on your Facebook group what is this worth if it grades 70 - wise coin sage Facebook owners and fellow peers in the group speculate higher prices - Facebook guru - kindly send all his members coins for grading, for a fee. (because he has a business as a grading company same grading company that is PARTNER of the RM) and the bubble gets bigger....

 

 

Have been observing this for months.

Getting worried my coin will be ok - better get the portrait, buy a couple more on ebay (weeks making offers, getting a bargain - thought I'd beaten the herd, been clever.....)

 

Classic speculative bubble - this time some of how/what happens in plain site.. and my personal example. of being sucked in

 

Lots of public will get sucked in lose an awful lot of money, finacial disaster, family breakups, suicides that has all been done before..... fascinating and depressing and stressful  to be a part of this one...

 

Trying to talk to RM about issue for a while...

 

I thought I was never going to be caught like this (but a respected dealer- Trusted partner of RM, recommended after bullion buying, have you heard of Una and the Lion, The Three Graces,  (Our FAcebook Guru Friend and similar others did very well with them at auction, lots of silver graces facebook member coins graded - for a fee - aswell)

 

Dealer say to me on the phone (nothing writen fdown) well here is this Gothic Crown I can get  guaranteed pair a 'special pair' plain edge  VIP only, will double in value, maybe more - but it is expenesive - but I braved the website queue excited - 176 in it - As did thousands of other - NOT like the old days at the RM website - cobwebs - Proof, that this is a winner everyone else wants one is musty be good, it must be safe - and the bubble gets bigger just 'missed securing MY COIN -

Back to the Trusted RM delaer to get my special coins.  Get onto Ebay to get some more

Rushed out to get my sure fire winner and I was part of the crowd - that shows the Tulip Bubble happened, the South sea bubble happened, I had read it all and though how do intelligent people get sucked in - Well - here we are. 

 

Nearly got sucked in a lot further - actually quite depressed how I got caught (and I have been ) but it was nearly double.. (three Portraits)

 

So what happens next.

I can afford to take the hit, even if it goes to ZERO (an expensive lesson) but as I have made it clear to the RM thousands of member of the public are caught up in this, Bad things will happen to som eof them, and the RM is enabling it...

 

........................and now they know about it  (I linked this thread, in my last email to the RM today - it has now escalated past three RM account manager, when I eventually made it quite plain this is serious!

 

Take a look around, am I wrong?

 

And again really good to get this off my chest - I have been banging my head about his for week this for week

(and last week was most stressful week of my life - Family reasons, far more stressful than speculative coin buying Frenzies, that have happened before - look up 1980s coin crash - and how 'grading' fueled that one- this time social media has made it bigger and faster)

 

All of Course in my opinion, other opinions may differ.  What do you guys think?

 

 Goodnight - off to get two Big Macs - sadly - 'Interesting Times'  ahead

 

Barry

 

 

So if you got the coins you wanted like you have in the past there wouldn’t be a problem?

[BarryWoods]

47 minutes ago, NewCoins said:

Who was the dealer ?

Not yet. Chat with RM tomorrow.

I've been trying to warn them, help them, they I don't think see it, get it, that is how it has always been - this afternoon, they might be getting it, I'll  see what tomorrow brings)

 

Last time I got this annoyed with an organisation story ended up in the Mail on Sunday (double page centre) and I ended up with a reporting credit (and I'm more annoyed this time)

[James32]

4 minutes ago, BarryWoods said:

Both - The RM know how this is happening. I have to assume a blind eye , because profits  re good, queues on the website (how dis that happen - I'll sow you)   - They enable it by their 'business model' and  know it is going on, to be fair  proof nevr did very well at launch, stock git to trade etc. BUT  social media came along... coins started selling out secondary market boomed - Facebook groups with member s trading all started up, attracting thousands of followers, sale boomed private trading boomed.

 

But, it is fueling a speculative bubble that will burst and take the public down with it - imho

 

As at some point nobody will be buying........ and we know what happens next... no buyers,, lots of seller.s.  - How soon?

 

That and some of these VIP Customers - Are registered as limited companies - and sell Coins service, grading,  auction consignment - to there gullible  members of Private Coin Facebok grups they run, and also hype up coins, to push the market sales - all the members flood the RM website - then gratefully get the VIP RM 'customer' guy running his Facebook group to send off their coin for grading - money for him - rolling in - and several thousand chep silver coins with grade 69 and 70 and photos posted of these coins slabbed, and everyone thinks they are going to get rich -no, just a few peole are getting rich-  his special cpins instantly multiply in price) etc,etc 

 

That the same individual is an agent for companies that are also ROYAL MINT partners. is just sick!!  (this is Royal Mints problem - Big Time..)

And there loads of others doing similar things - hence the madness in prices over the last few years and the public rushing in, because sure fire investment - as they watch Youtube Videos of that same guy waving gold coins around. - which they have got, and will get to auction first, or flip again, because prices are even higher now.. and must secure some more,  EBAY, EBAY, EBAY.

 

Friends and family- Aunty and Granpa want coins to -  to invest their savings (sure fire growth vs 0.5% interest in the bank) big rush to the website - hardly any stock there - somehow despite no "direct dealer"  allocation from RM dealers have stock.. and better coins not on RM website - Gosh the thinking goes, they must have sold out really quickly at RM (but they were never there) VIP cutomers had them who were trade.. they see the prices BUT it is higher .. Must secure it, get some more, all sizes, then ask on your Facebook group what is this worth if it grades 70 - wise coin sage Facebook owners and fellow peers in the group speculate higher prices - Facebook guru - kindly send all his members coins for grading, for a fee. (because he has a business as a grading company same grading company that is PARTNER of the RM) and the bubble gets bigger....

 

 

Have been observing this for months.

Getting worried my coin will be ok - better get the portrait, buy a couple more on ebay (weeks making offers, getting a bargain - thought I'd beaten the herd, been clever.....)

 

Classic speculative bubble - this time some of how/what happens in plain site.. and my personal example. of being sucked in

 

Lots of public will get sucked in lose an awful lot of money, finacial disaster, family breakups, suicides that has all been done before..... fascinating and depressing and stressful  to be a part of this one...

 

Trying to talk to RM about issue for a while...

 

I thought I was never going to be caught like this (but a respected dealer- Trusted partner of RM, recommended after bullion buying, have you heard of Una and the Lion, The Three Graces,  (Our FAcebook Guru Friend and similar others did very well with them at auction, lots of silver graces facebook member coins graded - for a fee - aswell)

 

Dealer say to me on the phone (nothing writen fdown) well here is this Gothic Crown I can get  guaranteed pair a 'special pair' plain edge  VIP only, will double in value, maybe more - but it is expenesive - but I braved the website queue excited - 176 in it - As did thousands of other - NOT like the old days at the RM website - cobwebs - Proof, that this is a winner everyone else wants one is musty be good, it must be safe - and the bubble gets bigger just 'missed securing MY COIN -

Back to the Trusted RM delaer to get my special coins.  Get onto Ebay to get some more

Rushed out to get my sure fire winner and I was part of the crowd - that shows the Tulip Bubble happened, the South sea bubble happened, I had read it all and though how do intelligent people get sucked in - Well - here we are. 

 

Nearly got sucked in a lot further - actually quite depressed how I got caught (and I have been ) but it was nearly double.. (three Portraits)

 

So what happens next.

I can afford to take the hit, even if it goes to ZERO (an expensive lesson) but as I have made it clear to the RM thousands of member of the public are caught up in this, Bad things will happen to som eof them, and the RM is enabling it...

 

........................and now they know about it  (I linked this thread, in my last email to the RM today - it has now escalated past three RM account manager, when I eventually made it quite plain this is serious!

 

Take a look around, am I wrong?

 

And again really good to get this off my chest - I have been banging my head about his for week this for week

(and last week was most stressful week of my life - Family reasons, far more stressful than speculative coin buying Frenzies, that have happened before - look up 1980s coin crash - and how 'grading' fueled that one- this time social media has made it bigger and faster)

 

All of Course in my opinion, other opinions may differ.  What do you guys think?

 

 Goodnight - off to get two Big Macs - sadly - 'Interesting Times'  ahead

 

Barry

 

 

You bought coin number one because you liked it? Heard the hype and bought in? 

But you then bought more because you were categorically chasing the profit train ( absolutely no other reason to go again)

Now you're worried the secondary prices are drying up and the only way you get out clean is by having the set ( still no guarantee though)

Personally I think you should cut you're losses and get out quickly before you loose you're sanity sir.

[BarryWoods]

Just now, James32 said:

You bought coin number one because you liked it? Heard the hype and bought in? 

But you then bought more because you were categorically chasing the profit train ( absolutely no other reason to go again)

Now you're worried the secondary prices are drying up and the only way you get out clean is by having the set ( still no guarantee though)

Personally I think you should cut you're losses and get out quickly before you loose you're sanity sir.

The fun thing is. long term I think these coins wil actually do well great design.  Just very worried about what is happening in Facebook groups - short answers - mobile phone now - read my long stuff about Facebook groups again.

[James32]

2 minutes ago, BarryWoods said:

The fun thing is. long term I think these coins wil actually do well great design.  Just very worried about what is happening in Facebook groups - short answers - mobile phone now - read my long stuff about Facebook groups again.

As long as you like the coin and believe in the coins future....stay off Facebook and let the market take care of itself. 

[ArgentSmith]

1 minute ago, James32 said:

As long as you like the coin and believe in the coins future....stay off Facebook and let the market take care of itself. 

Agreed, instead of worrying about what other people are doing maybe concentrate on your own decisions/mistakes. Im a free market man, if a transaction is voluntary and honest it's all good in my book.

How flippers "sellers" time the sale of their own property is a matter entirely for them, how businesses market and sell their products is entirely their business.

Love and Peace 😇 

[Paul]

Following this thread . . . I've seen more red flags than a Chinese solidarity government parade thus far, but I'll enjoy the journey

[StackemHigh]

@BarryWoods Have you seen the quality control on items from thr rm?

Dings,scratches and milk spots on coins. Capsules left open. Poor quality presentation cases.

The rm is not a luxury goods company. They are the same type of company that Del Boy Trotter used back in the day. Remember the size of those mobile phones?

Rolls Royce, Bentley and Aston Martin are prestige companies. 

audi, apple and the royal mint are NOT!

If you want to eat in a macdonalds, burger king or kfc then go right ahead, I won't be bumping into you when i'm eating in Miller & Carter or The Ivy

A company that says they are quality is a company that does not believe in their product, and one to stay away from.

1000 years of c**p is not true but sure does look like it most of the time.

 

[ArgentSmith]

Miller and Carter?

[jultorsk]

With all friendliness, I still don't get it @BarryWoods. Some Facebook 🐬 group is not "the Market".

You probably won't quadruple your investment, but that should not have been the driver for purchase in the first place.

The Gothics are beautiful to look at and pleasing to hold. The RM have turned a lump of metal into an object of desire by craftmanship and marketing, thereby adding value to it. The customer chooses if they wish to pay the price for that perceived added value. Some do. Many more don't.

(BTW I'd still buy a Gold Una if I could ever afford one. The one in LCA will surely do well for the vendor.)  

At the end of the day it's like any investment; profit is made when you buy, not when you sell.

I hope it all ends up well for you, best of luck.

Edited February 8, 2022 by jultorsk
incorrect tag

[BarryWoods]

The Facebook groups did NOT do this to me  - and it is a good chunk  of the new additions of customers to the  market, each has thousands of members, I joined these much later on.. 

The customer does choose but the market is rigged - 350 mintage for 2 oz milled edge - but only 150 on sale at website at launch..

Somehow 200 of this mintage, brand new products end up at coin dealers, at double RRP or higher . at launch...

But the RM does NOT, it says allocate them to dealers...

So what is the routes to the dealer. When anyone buying from tat dealer would assume RRP..  and a direct allocation from the RM of those coins, with an invoice and paper trail.

 

There are NO authorized RM dealers - So they are being bought from RM prior to launch, in cases where these are coin businesses (but member no authorized dealers?)

Then passed around the trade - I heard of one dealer, buying 5 Gothics, from some that could get 5 but did not want one (I was offered one) and eventually they end up for sale at double or more RRP that RM would charge on the website for that particular coin.

 

If a customer buys a Cartier product from my wife business-new' (Cartier authorized retailer)- each item will have an invoice directly with Cartier to show for it.)

 

If you all can't see this is a very dodgy way to do business for the Royal Mint. I'm just lost for words.

 

Premium brands control, dealer, location allocation, grey market rigorously.. and especially conflicts of interests - which appear significant.

 

This is nuts.

[BarryWoods]

1 hour ago, StackemHigh said:

@BarryWoods Have you seen the quality control on items from thr rm?

Dings,scratches and milk spots on coins. Capsules left open. Poor quality presentation cases.

The rm is not a luxury goods company. They are the same type of company that Del Boy Trotter used back in the day. Remember the size of those mobile phones?

Rolls Royce, Bentley and Aston Martin are prestige companies. 

audi, apple and the royal mint are NOT!

If you want to eat in a macdonalds, burger king or kfc then go right ahead, I won't be bumping into you when i'm eating in Miller & Carter or The Ivy

A company that says they are quality is a company that does not believe in their product, and one to stay away from.

1000 years of c**p is not true but sure does look like it most of the time.

 

The brand could be, and deserve to be.... that the current product bring down the brand, just means the Brand managers need to improve on cproduct quality = More customers, happier customers, more premium products that people will desire and pay for.

[UnoWho]

Hey @BarryWoods,

Is this the first time you are buying into the Royal Mint hype? This has happened before and several times too.

Nothing will change - no matter who you speak with, in the Mint

I don't know how many of these so called Gothic Crowns you have bought. If you can keep them, great. Else, cut your losses and take some time off from new releases.

I also don't know who this "dealer" or "trade partner" is. It was made very clear that only Mint Marque customers will be offered the plain edge. I know two fellow collectors / flippers / hobbyists who spend enough to be "Platinum Mint Marque" members, but, deliberately choose not to. Both have account managers and weren't offered the "plain edge" version since it was strictly for Mint Marque Customers. Therefore, whoever you bought these coins from would have bought from a Mint Marque customer. 

Yes, there are exceptions to the rule (there always will be). For example, the Mint Marque customers were offered a choice between the plain and the milled edge versions. They couldn't get both. However, there are some select few who received both. Most people here will know who the exceptions are. However, that's not the point. The point is, there is no way these things can be enforced. Also, as it has been mentioned somewhere on the thread above, the model is working well for RM. They already know what is happening. Their staff are on this forum as well as the Facebook Group I think you are referring to. Interestingly, I sometimes get asked by fellow numismatists if they didn't get offered a certain denomination by their account manager because they "flipped" the coin on Facebook! Although they are "watching", nothing will change. Nothing will change, because this is not the first time this has happened. They know it is a cycle. And I know nothing will change because I had discussed this with key staff at RM, during what was then, my monthly catch-up with them. Now these are less frequent. However, the same personnel, a key decision maker had tried to explain to me the rationale behind having a Mint Marque exclusive plain edge version. I don't buy the rationale. I mostly do not agree with their thinking. However, this brings them the most profit and hence why will they do anything different?

Did you know that even you could become a reseller of Royal Mint coins if you wanted to? However, did you also know that if you did decide to do that, you won't just be able to buy the Great Engravers series. You will also have to buy the Peter Rabbits and the Little Miss Sunshines. You won't just be able to buy the 2oz gold proofs. You will also have to buy the silver proofs. How do you think these dealers manage to stay in business? They end up making losses with the less popular releases and then these key releases (usually just once or twice in a year) make up for those losses. Did you also know that these dealers wouldn't have got the plain edge variety directly from the Mint? They would have had to buy them from Mint Marque customers at a premium. 

Lets say you have an issue with the Mint Marque customers reselling these coins. Although there are five levels of Mint Marque customers, majority of the limited editions go to the Platinum Plus and Platinum customers. Do you personally know any genuine collectors who never sell coins after spending more than £100,000 a year with a single mint? Let's take the example of the second coin in the Music Legends series - Elton John. The 2oz gold proof Elton John recently sold at an auction that only yielded 20% above spot price (and over £1,250 less than RRP) to the consigner after buyer's premium? The mintage of this coin is just 50! These were mostly exclusively snapped up by Platinum Plus Mint Marque customers. What does this tell us? There aren't even 50 genuine collectors of that series. However, the first coin in the series has rarely been seen for sale or auction in the past year. The series got ruined as the mintage numbers for the third coin in the series were tripled! and even more for the fourth coin. This is how RM function. The Mint cannot sustain a business such as theirs solely on the basis of "genuine collectors". The collectors only exist if there is exclusivity. You either take the risk and buy into a series at its inception or leave it alone completely. What are 1/4 ounce gold proof Queen's Beasts selling for these days? Not more than £500 a piece (there could be one or two designs fetching more than the others and this figure is an average; based on my own buying and selling experience). Once again, this is less than RRP for most coins in the series. Who would have thought that such a popular series will be fetching negative returns for long term collectors? Sadly, this is the reality. 

Why do you think these coins - Gothic Crown restrikes - will do well in the long run? Do you know that the total mintage of this re-struck Gothic Crown in 2oz gold proof is more than twice that of the Una and the Lion restrike? Did you also know that originally the basis of selecting the designs for the series was that the original would have been struck in extremely limited numbers? Gothic Crown does not even fit the bill of the original criteria for selection since they were minted in relatively large numbers. Ultimately it is a business and RM will do what the market will buy into. Similarly, the hype around these releases was always created by dealers who decided to buy into an idea as long as the mintages were limited and the average public weren't buying into the series. When RM launched this series with the Una and the Lion, did you expect it to do as well as it did? Did you think the subsequent releases will "perform" in a similar fashion. Most people hadn't even heard of "The Three Graces" - the marble statue perhaps yes, but surely not the coin. Una and the Lion has been a legendary coin and therefore the demand for the restrike somewhat makes sense. What also worked in its favour is that the average public didn't buy into the concept initially. Which meant most of the allocation was bought up by dealers around the world. This restricted the supply in the open market and hence the price went up. Immediately there were calls upon the Mint to increase the mintage as they could now see the demand. Moreover, the Mint also wanted a piece of this pie. The subsequent releases even saw a 10oz version in both silver and gold. 

What next? My advice to anybody who asks me about buying commemorative coins is that if you get it directly from the Mint on release day, go for it. Keep it, if you like it. Flip it, if others like it more. However, if you don't get it on release day from the Mint, do not buy it from the secondary market (whether you want to call them "Trusted Trade Partners" or "Dealers" or "Annabelle" - they all form the secondary market) because of the hype. In fact, do not buy it at all  Just wait and watch and in a couple of years (or less) if you still want it, you will probably be paying less than RRP. Unlikely for coins like Una and the Lion, but, applies to most others.

 

 

Edited February 8, 2022 by UnoWho
spell-check

[Foster88]

*puts on tin hat* (I do actually have a 1941 WW2 helmet).

@BarryWoods the RM can’t win whatever they do. It is pot luck, you win some, you loose some. I’ve lost due to my position in the RM queue mostly recently, if you look across the forum many have been left frustrated after being in the queue for an hour, half an hour to get onto the website to find there’s nothing left.

I really wanted the silver Henry VII 1oz silver coins of the new release. I didn’t get it, I wish I did but I’ve looked forward towards new collections.

I’ve thought about the RM allocation myself, how can they please everyone when releasing a limited mintage. Think about it, say a coin commemorating, whatever it may be has a mintage of 2,000 but 20,000 people want it. They can only please 10%.

Edited February 8, 2022 by Foster88

[BarryWoods]

9 hours ago, UnoWho said:

Hey @BarryWoods,

Is this the first time you are buying into the Royal Mint hype? This has happened before and several times too.

Nothing will change - no matter who you speak with, in the Mint

I don't know how many of these so called Gothic Crowns you have bought. If you can keep them, great. Else, cut your losses and take some time off from new releases.

I also don't know who this "dealer" or "trade partner" is. It was made very clear that only Mint Marque customers will be offered the plain edge. I know two fellow collectors / flippers / hobbyists who spend enough to be "Platinum Mint Marque" members, but, deliberately choose not to. Both have account managers and weren't offered the "plain edge" version since it was strictly for Mint Marque Customers. Therefore, whoever you bought these coins from would have bought from a Mint Marque customer. 

Yes, there are exceptions to the rule (there always will be). For example, the Mint Marque customers were offered a choice between the plain and the milled edge versions. They couldn't get both. However, there are some select few who received both. Most people here will know who the exceptions are. However, that's not the point. The point is, there is no way these things can be enforced. Also, as it has been mentioned somewhere on the thread above, the model is working well for RM. They already know what is happening. Their staff are on this forum as well as the Facebook Group I think you are referring to. Interestingly, I sometimes get asked by fellow numismatists if they didn't get offered a certain denomination by their account manager because they "flipped" the coin on Facebook! Although they are "watching", nothing will change. Nothing will change, because this is not the first time this has happened. They know it is a cycle. And I know nothing will change because I had discussed this with key staff at RM, during what was then, my monthly catch-up with them. Now these are less frequent. However, the same personnel, a key decision maker had tried to explain to me the rationale behind having a Mint Marque exclusive plain edge version. I don't buy the rationale. I mostly do not agree with their thinking. However, this brings them the most profit and hence why will they do anything different?

Did you know that even you could become a reseller of Royal Mint coins if you wanted to? However, did you also know that if you did decide to do that, you won't just be able to buy the Great Engravers series. You will also have to buy the Peter Rabbits and the Little Miss Sunshines. You won't just be able to buy the 2oz gold proofs. You will also have to buy the silver proofs. How do you think these dealers manage to stay in business? They end up making losses with the less popular releases and then these key releases (usually just once or twice in a year) make up for those losses. Did you also know that these dealers wouldn't have got the plain edge variety directly from the Mint? They would have had to buy them from Mint Marque customers at a premium. 

Lets say you have an issue with the Mint Marque customers reselling these coins. Although there are five levels of Mint Marque customers, majority of the limited editions go to the Platinum Plus and Platinum customers. Do you personally know any genuine collectors who never sell coins after spending more than £100,000 a year with a single mint? Let's take the example of the second coin in the Music Legends series - Elton John. The 2oz gold proof Elton John recently sold at an auction that only yielded 20% above spot price (and over £1,250 less than RRP) to the consigner after buyer's premium? The mintage of this coin is just 50! These were mostly exclusively snapped up by Platinum Plus Mint Marque customers. What does this tell us? There aren't even 50 genuine collectors of that series. However, the first coin in the series has rarely been seen for sale or auction in the past year. The series got ruined as the mintage numbers for the third coin in the series were tripled! and even more for the fourth coin. This is how RM function. The Mint cannot sustain a business such as theirs solely on the basis of "genuine collectors". The collectors only exist if there is exclusivity. You either take the risk and buy into a series at its inception or leave it alone completely. What are 1/4 ounce gold proof Queen's Beasts selling for these days? Not more than £500 a piece (there could be one or two designs fetching more than the others and this figure is an average; based on my own buying and selling experience). Once again, this is less than RRP for most coins in the series. Who would have thought that such a popular series will be fetching negative returns for long term collectors? Sadly, this is the reality. 

Why do you think these coins - Gothic Crown restrikes - will do well in the long run? Do you know that the total mintage of this re-struck Gothic Crown in 2oz gold proof is more than twice that of the Una and the Lion restrike? Did you also know that originally the basis of selecting the designs for the series was that the original would have been struck in extremely limited numbers? Gothic Crown does not even fit the bill of the original criteria for selection since they were minted in relatively large numbers. Ultimately it is a business and RM will do what the market will buy into. Similarly, the hype around these releases was always created by dealers who decided to buy into an idea as long as the mintages were limited and the average public weren't buying into the series. When RM launched this series with the Una and the Lion, did you expect it to do as well as it did? Did you think the subsequent releases will "perform" in a similar fashion. Most people hadn't even heard of "The Three Graces" - the marble statue perhaps yes, but surely not the coin. Una and the Lion has been a legendary coin and therefore the demand for the restrike somewhat makes sense. What also worked in its favour is that the average public didn't buy into the concept initially. Which meant most of the allocation was bought up by dealers around the world. This restricted the supply in the open market and hence the price went up. Immediately there were calls upon the Mint to increase the mintage as they could now see the demand. Moreover, the Mint also wanted a piece of this pie. The subsequent releases even saw a 10oz version in both silver and gold. 

What next? My advice to anybody who asks me about buying commemorative coins is that if you get it directly from the Mint on release day, go for it. Keep it, if you like it. Flip it, if others like it more. However, if you don't get it on release day from the Mint, do not buy it from the secondary market (whether you want to call them "Trusted Trade Partners" or "Dealers" or "Annabelle" - they all form the secondary market) because of the hype. In fact, do not buy it at all  Just wait and watch and in a couple of years (or less) if you still want it, you will probably be paying less than RRP. Unlikely for coins like Una and the Lion, but, applies to most others.

 

 

Sure.. nothing to disagree with there

 

 

LOL - Fortunately the coin/bullion dealer involved sent the coin last week and it arrived on  Saturday.

The Citizens Advice Consumer Helpline just advised me it comes up distance selling regulation. and gave me a case number

 

So I could just get a refund and return it no reason needed (though I have plenty of reasons given)

I just hope they are not going to be silly about it, and just transfer the funds today... 

 

Big established dealer trading for several years (name will be familiar to all here)

 

 

[James32]

3 minutes ago, BarryWoods said:

Sure.. nothing to disagree with there

 

 

LOL - Fortunately the coin/bullion dealer involved sent the coin last week and it arrived on  Saturday.

The Citizens Advice Consumer Helpline just advised me it comes up distance selling regulation. and gave me a case number

 

So I could just get a refund and return it no reason needed (though I have plenty of reasons given)

I just hope they are not going to be silly about it, and just transfer the funds today... 

 

Big established dealer trading for several years (name will be familiar to all here)

 

 

Britannia cc?

[NewCoins]

So just to clarify, the main gripe is the price paid for the coin from the secondary market?

[BarryWoods]

26 minutes ago, James32 said:

Britannia cc?

NO !

 

given speculation here - it was Bullion House -

The seem to think I wouldn't have thought to archive the relevant web pages. and also take screen captures of the Trusted Partners webpage - which I sent to the Royal Mint.

 

All they had to do on Monday, was simply refund me, and I would return it.. but they started playing silly buggers

 

But, they are a well established company, so I am going to hope they simple refund the money today, as I have bought ov £20,000 of gold bullion from them  and have been nothing but (previously) satisfied with the service, and I had even recommended many gold buyers other to use them.. Hence my concern!

 

The confabulated RM to dealer supply train is an issue, that the RM I think do need to get a grip on.

As far as a consumer would think - RM product being sold on all dealers website at the day of the launch of an RM proof, would be at RRP. not multiples of.

So I passed that concern on to RM, Consumer standards and trading standards...

Millions of pounds worth of products, massive RRP markups (misrepresentation of provenance) and how exclusive RM products either available on the RM website, or special customers only, is really a bit murky.

RM need to get a grip on product to trade business model.. which was the subject of this post

[FlorinCollector]

You did a great job of masking what you were really moaning about Barry. You just wanted refund because you got caught in fomo land.

[BarryWoods]

29 minutes ago, NewCoins said:

So just to clarify, the main gripe is the price paid for the coin from the secondary market?

NO - have you read this at all? - as far as I was concerned it was NOT the secondary market. but was ripped off in the primary market.

 

Also I have bought two other gold Gothic Coins, on the secondary market, at a premium (non greedy 40-54%) -

 - vs this 200%. and both people were genuine coin collectors, (spent 45 minutes talking with one chap about his Guinea collection, history, etc) 

and another who I would (and am) happily buying from again. and one is looking at some of my coins to buy..(and spent half an hour chatting with on the phone today)

 

Why is everyone misunderstanding issue.

[BarryWoods]

2 minutes ago, FlorinCollector said:

You did a great job of masking what you were really moaning about Barry. You just wanted refund because you got caught in fomo land.

Hi - Florincllector - you are anonymous - It is pretty clear to me I have conveyed the issue accurately

so is it perhaps possible you might be a person who is passing volumes of the RM coins to trade - or is trade - - and you really don't like me talking about the issue?

No accusations, but your comments seem a bit obtuse.

 

RM needs transparency of RM to dealer supply train, which was the topic of this post.

[NewCoins]

7 minutes ago, BarryWoods said:

NO - have you read this at all? - as far as I was concerned it was NOT the secondary market. but was ripped off in the primary market.

 

Also I have bought two other gold Gothic Coins, on the secondary market, at a premium (non greedy 40-54%) -

 - vs this 200%. and both people were genuine coin collectors, (spent 45 minutes talking with one chap about his Guinea collection, history, etc) 

and another who I would (and am) happily buying from again. and one is looking at some of my coins to buy..(and spent half an hour chatting with on the phone today)

 

Why is everyone misunderstanding issue.

Sorry Barry. You type a lot of words, it's sometimes hard to get to the salient points.

So you paid for a coin, on what you thought was the primary market, for secondary market prices ? 

If it was RRP would you be as concerned?

Edited February 8, 2022 by NewCoins

[Shinus73]

15 minutes ago, BarryWoods said:

As far as a consumer would think - RM product being sold on all dealers website at the day of the launch of an RM proof, would be at RRP. not multiples of.

Anybody buying who believes this, has not come close to doing enough research.

[FlorinCollector]

I wish