Time to drag the Royal Mint's business model in to this century?

[James32]

11 minutes ago, BarryWoods said:

Hi - Florincllector - you are anonymous - It is pretty clear to me I have conveyed the issue accurately

so is it perhaps possible you might be a person who is passing volumes of the RM coins to trade - or is trade - - and you really don't like me talking about the issue?

No accusations, but your comments seem a bit obtuse.

 

RM needs transparency of RM to dealer supply train, which was the topic of this post.

I think you may be on to something with that @FlorinCollector Barry.......he probably works for rm

[BarryWoods]

10 minutes ago, Shinus73 said:

Anybody buying who believes this, has not come close to doing enough research.

And my point social media bubble, etc is that people who do not know a great deal about coins, would know all this, and you are just laughing at their foolishness - about not doing research..

 

Like me, if I buy a Rolex, or a Cartier watch, on launch day of that product, why would i even think to myself research is needed.

As the only way that dealer, could get that product, is directly from the company itself.. ( Know my wife is an authorized Cartier Reseller, and Cartier watch the grey market like a hawk) 

 

Do you really think this is ok.. buyer beware and all that. but the coin industry seems to be operating outside of all norms or consumer expectations of how things operate.

Why should the public have to do research on Royal Mint Products that appear at coin dealers on launch day. The RM needs to get a grip on this. imho

[Shinus73]

1 minute ago, BarryWoods said:

And my point social media bubble, etc is that people who do not know a great deal about coins, would know all this, and you are just laughing at their foolishness - about not doing research..

 

Like me, if I buy a Rolex, or a Cartier watch, on launch day of that product, why would i even think to myself research is needed.

As the only way that dealer, could get that product, is directly from the company itself.. ( Know my wife is an authorized Cartier Reseller, and Cartier watch the grey market like a hawk) 

 

Do you really think this is ok.. buyer beware and all that. but the coin industry seems to be operating outside of all norms or consumer expectations of how things operate.

Why should the public have to do research on Royal Mint Products that appear at coin dealers on launch day. The RM needs to get a grip on this. imho

Sorry, I just think you're flat out wrong.

I've never bought anything from anywhere without knowing first what I should be paying for it.

You don't do this, you have nobody to blame but yourself.

[BarryWoods]

Really - you seem to be defending this - do have a vested interest - anonymous person - just an odd question

 

Do you really go into a high street jeweler who are authorised retailers of multiple high profile brands and buy an expensive watch..

and first think.. maybe I'll go and ring up the supplier of the watch to check whether this is actually RRP and I am not buying  it in fact on the secondary market.. and maybe the shop is lying about being an aurised dealer...  Really!

 

Maybe you do.. Maybe you do lots of 'research' -

But the public have consumer protection laws in this country and there are trading standards.. the general public would make a reasonably assumption that no research is needed..

 

but hey

[FlorinCollector]

Haha if Barry disagrees with you. You must work for the mint. 

[Gordy]

31 minutes ago, James32 said:

I think you may be on to something with that @FlorinCollector Barry.......he probably works for rm

I thought he worked for you!!! 🤣

[FlorinCollector]

If i did (and I'm not saying i don't or I do) i would have all the gold engravers. 

[NewCoins]

1 minute ago, BarryWoods said:

Really - you seem to be defending this - do have a vested interest - anonymous person - just an odd question

 

Do you really go into a high street jeweler who are authorised retailers of multiple high profile brands and buy an expensive watch..

and first think.. maybe I'll go and ring up the supplier of the watch to check whether this is actually RRP and I am not buying  it in fact on the secondary market.. and maybe the shop is lying about being an aurised dealer...  Really!

 

Maybe you do.. Maybe you do lots of 'research' -

But the public have consumer protection laws in this country and there are trading standards.. the general public would make a reasonably assumption that no research is needed..

 

but hey

You surely must have had an inkling how much a 2oz gold proof coin generally goes for ?

If you didn't, then you shouldn't have been running head long into something you knew nothing about.

[TeaTime]

It's all a bit convoluted. I think your gripe is that dealers are selling RM products the same day that they are available on the RM website. But at a huge mark-up. And presenting themselves as authorised dealers of RM products ?

These are all separate issues really.

I agree to an extent that dealers appear to be either circumventing the RM lottery process or are being offered product direct from the mint thus excluding some collectors from being able to purchase direct. It's only an appearance though - not factually proven. More likely the dealers are buying from those privileged enough to be offered the product but don't particularly want it.. 

If the dealer is buying from the secondary market and selling at a profit then that is capitalism at it's finest. No reason to complain. It's down to the buyer to determine what he/she is prepared to pay.

If the dealer is marketing themselves as an authorised seller of RM products then they are lying. This would be an issue of misrepresentation though and should not have any bearing on what they charge. Unless they are stating that their prices are RRP. Easy enough to check.

 

[Shinus73]

7 minutes ago, BarryWoods said:

Really - you seem to be defending this - do have a vested interest - anonymous person - just an odd question

 

Do you really go into a high street jeweler who are authorised retailers of multiple high profile brands and buy an expensive watch..

and first think.. maybe I'll go and ring up the supplier of the watch to check whether this is actually RRP and I am not buying  it in fact on the secondary market.. and maybe the shop is lying about being an aurised dealer...  Really!

 

Maybe you do.. Maybe you do lots of 'research' -

But the public have consumer protection laws in this country and there are trading standards.. the general public would make a reasonably assumption that no research is needed..

 

but hey

I just disagree, there doesn't have to be a vested interest.

Of course I do lots of research, that's why I said it. If I was going to buy a particular type of expensive watch, I would compare the price with every other current and historical price I could find.

If I'm going to buy a new coin from a dealer, I'll do the same thing, which firstly means finding out what the RM price was.

If I don't do this and pay too much, it's entirely my fault.

[BarryWoods]

9 minutes ago, FlorinCollector said:

Haha if Barry disagrees with you. You must work for the mint. 

keep the distraction tactics up and trying to discredit me (to distract from what I am saying?) - anonymous person on an internet forum.

 

I'm sure it is 'working' - LOL 

Ha. Ha. Ha

 

[BarryWoods]

16 hours ago, NewCoins said:

Who was the dealer ?

 

14 hours ago, jultorsk said:

With all friendliness, I still don't get it @BarryWoods. Some Facebook 🐬 group is not "the Market".

You probably won't quadruple your investment, but that should not have been the driver for purchase in the first place.

The Gothics are beautiful to look at and pleasing to hold. The RM have turned a lump of metal into an object of desire by craftmanship and marketing, thereby adding value to it. The customer chooses if they wish to pay the price for that perceived added value. Some do. Many more don't.

(BTW I'd still buy a Gold Una if I could ever afford one. The one in LCA will surely do well for the vendor.)  

At the end of the day it's like any investment; profit is made when you buy, not when you sell.

I hope it all ends up well for you, best of luck.

 

15 hours ago, ArgentSmith said:

Agreed, instead of worrying about what other people are doing maybe concentrate on your own decisions/mistakes. Im a free market man, if a transaction is voluntary and honest it's all good in my book.

How flippers "sellers" time the sale of their own property is a matter entirely for them, how businesses market and sell their products is entirely their business.

Love and Peace 😇 

 

12 hours ago, UnoWho said:

Hey @BarryWoods,

Is this the first time you are buying into the Royal Mint hype? This has happened before and several times too.

Nothing will change - no matter who you speak with, in the Mint

I don't know how many of these so called Gothic Crowns you have bought. If you can keep them, great. Else, cut your losses and take some time off from new releases.

I also don't know who this "dealer" or "trade partner" is. It was made very clear that only Mint Marque customers will be offered the plain edge. I know two fellow collectors / flippers / hobbyists who spend enough to be "Platinum Mint Marque" members, but, deliberately choose not to. Both have account managers and weren't offered the "plain edge" version since it was strictly for Mint Marque Customers. Therefore, whoever you bought these coins from would have bought from a Mint Marque customer. 

Yes, there are exceptions to the rule (there always will be). For example, the Mint Marque customers were offered a choice between the plain and the milled edge versions. They couldn't get both. However, there are some select few who received both. Most people here will know who the exceptions are. However, that's not the point. The point is, there is no way these things can be enforced. Also, as it has been mentioned somewhere on the thread above, the model is working well for RM. They already know what is happening. Their staff are on this forum as well as the Facebook Group I think you are referring to. Interestingly, I sometimes get asked by fellow numismatists if they didn't get offered a certain denomination by their account manager because they "flipped" the coin on Facebook! Although they are "watching", nothing will change. Nothing will change, because this is not the first time this has happened. They know it is a cycle. And I know nothing will change because I had discussed this with key staff at RM, during what was then, my monthly catch-up with them. Now these are less frequent. However, the same personnel, a key decision maker had tried to explain to me the rationale behind having a Mint Marque exclusive plain edge version. I don't buy the rationale. I mostly do not agree with their thinking. However, this brings them the most profit and hence why will they do anything different?

Did you know that even you could become a reseller of Royal Mint coins if you wanted to? However, did you also know that if you did decide to do that, you won't just be able to buy the Great Engravers series. You will also have to buy the Peter Rabbits and the Little Miss Sunshines. You won't just be able to buy the 2oz gold proofs. You will also have to buy the silver proofs. How do you think these dealers manage to stay in business? They end up making losses with the less popular releases and then these key releases (usually just once or twice in a year) make up for those losses. Did you also know that these dealers wouldn't have got the plain edge variety directly from the Mint? They would have had to buy them from Mint Marque customers at a premium. 

Lets say you have an issue with the Mint Marque customers reselling these coins. Although there are five levels of Mint Marque customers, majority of the limited editions go to the Platinum Plus and Platinum customers. Do you personally know any genuine collectors who never sell coins after spending more than £100,000 a year with a single mint? Let's take the example of the second coin in the Music Legends series - Elton John. The 2oz gold proof Elton John recently sold at an auction that only yielded 20% above spot price (and over £1,250 less than RRP) to the consigner after buyer's premium? The mintage of this coin is just 50! These were mostly exclusively snapped up by Platinum Plus Mint Marque customers. What does this tell us? There aren't even 50 genuine collectors of that series. However, the first coin in the series has rarely been seen for sale or auction in the past year. The series got ruined as the mintage numbers for the third coin in the series were tripled! and even more for the fourth coin. This is how RM function. The Mint cannot sustain a business such as theirs solely on the basis of "genuine collectors". The collectors only exist if there is exclusivity. You either take the risk and buy into a series at its inception or leave it alone completely. What are 1/4 ounce gold proof Queen's Beasts selling for these days? Not more than £500 a piece (there could be one or two designs fetching more than the others and this figure is an average; based on my own buying and selling experience). Once again, this is less than RRP for most coins in the series. Who would have thought that such a popular series will be fetching negative returns for long term collectors? Sadly, this is the reality. 

Why do you think these coins - Gothic Crown restrikes - will do well in the long run? Do you know that the total mintage of this re-struck Gothic Crown in 2oz gold proof is more than twice that of the Una and the Lion restrike? Did you also know that originally the basis of selecting the designs for the series was that the original would have been struck in extremely limited numbers? Gothic Crown does not even fit the bill of the original criteria for selection since they were minted in relatively large numbers. Ultimately it is a business and RM will do what the market will buy into. Similarly, the hype around these releases was always created by dealers who decided to buy into an idea as long as the mintages were limited and the average public weren't buying into the series. When RM launched this series with the Una and the Lion, did you expect it to do as well as it did? Did you think the subsequent releases will "perform" in a similar fashion. Most people hadn't even heard of "The Three Graces" - the marble statue perhaps yes, but surely not the coin. Una and the Lion has been a legendary coin and therefore the demand for the restrike somewhat makes sense. What also worked in its favour is that the average public didn't buy into the concept initially. Which meant most of the allocation was bought up by dealers around the world. This restricted the supply in the open market and hence the price went up. Immediately there were calls upon the Mint to increase the mintage as they could now see the demand. Moreover, the Mint also wanted a piece of this pie. The subsequent releases even saw a 10oz version in both silver and gold. 

What next? My advice to anybody who asks me about buying commemorative coins is that if you get it directly from the Mint on release day, go for it. Keep it, if you like it. Flip it, if others like it more. However, if you don't get it on release day from the Mint, do not buy it from the secondary market (whether you want to call them "Trusted Trade Partners" or "Dealers" or "Annabelle" - they all form the secondary market) because of the hype. In fact, do not buy it at all  Just wait and watch and in a couple of years (or less) if you still want it, you will probably be paying less than RRP. Unlikely for coins like Una and the Lion, but, applies to most others.

 

 

 

47 minutes ago, Shinus73 said:

Anybody buying who believes this, has not come close to doing enough research.

 

3 minutes ago, TeaTime said:

It's all a bit convoluted. I think your gripe is that dealers are selling RM products the same day that they are available on the RM website. But at a huge mark-up. And presenting themselves as authorised dealers of RM products ?

These are all separate issues really.

I agree to an extent that dealers appear to be either circumventing the RM lottery process or are being offered product direct from the mint thus excluding some collectors from being able to purchase direct. It's only an appearance though - not factually proven. More likely the dealers are buying from those privileged enough to be offered the product but don't particularly want it.. 

If the dealer is buying from the secondary market and selling at a profit then that is capitalism at it's finest. No reason to complain. It's down to the buyer to determine what he/she is prepared to pay.

If the dealer is marketing themselves as an authorised seller of RM products then they are lying. This would be an issue of misrepresentation though and should not have any bearing on what they charge. Unless they are stating that their prices are RRP. Easy enough to check.

 

Well in fact - A dealer I spoke to me yesterday told me explicit that his business was a Mint Marque customer, very very candid!! nice chap

- So that company really is trade access to coins! then pumping up multiples of RRP at Mint

 

And another example GreatBritainCoinExchange - put an ad on Ebay at 5 minutes past midnight, on the day of the Portrait Launch (that did not happen) advertising 5 oz Gold Portrait coin - for £49,995

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/334319322406?hash=item4dd6fc0526:g:3v8AAOSwcURh~53j

Did the owner of that business Eric Darko, (which has only existed for 4 months)  get that from a Mint Marque customer or is he himself a Mint Marque customer

https://find-and-update.company-information.service.gov.uk/officers/rp7gc7oW3Zj8hBynCUpGKGrZ67U/appointments

All questions that I think should be asked of the Royal Mint..

Do the Royal Mint really want their exclusive (in this case-NOT available the public) Very expensive  Gold products hawked on Ebay within minutes. really? (in this case 8 hours before a launch that did not happen!!

(and there are lots of others,,,,)

 

 

there is exclusive VIP access for wealthy collectors and there is the trade taking the p*** and the RM's blind eye because 'sales are good'

 

I have suggested anyone behaving like this, should be an EX Mint MArque customer, for reason given.

 

 

either way, Royal Mint should GET a grip - some (how many?) Mint Marque customers are abusing this. In Luxury Brand world, they would be EX VIP customers for doing this.

[NewCoins]

Hang on a second.

You thought you were buying a VIP product really easily by flashing some cash, and complain its easily accessible to non VIP customers ?

I don't think you can have it all, Barry.

[BarryWoods]

I forgot to mention the GreatBritishCoinExchange Ltd company wanted a 400% mark up of RRP - * hours, before the launch of the Portrait time, and the launch never happened..

(assuming RRP, was £12k, does anyone know what it was?) 

 

It is NOT even possible for the public to know what RRP was for that product.. (not published on the RM website) 

 

I have just  FOI'd the Royal Mint for the pricing information of all those coins... 😉 

 

(and that company has TWO 5 oz gold Portraits for sale on Ebay)

[Shinus73]

2 minutes ago, BarryWoods said:

I forgot to mention the GreatBritishCoinExchange Ltd company wanted a 400% mark up of RRP - * hours, before the launch of the Portrait time, and the launch never happened..

(assuming RRP, was £12k, does anyone know what it was?) 

 

It is NOT even possible for the public to know what RRP was for that product.. (not published on the RM website) 

 

I have just  FOI'd the Royal Mint for the pricing information of all those coins... 😉 

 

(and that company has TWO 5 oz gold Portraits for sale on Ebay)

You have more time on your hands than I do! 🙂

[BarryWoods]

Just now, NewCoins said:

Hang on a second.

You thought you were buying a VIP product really easily by flashing some cash, and complain its easily accessible to non VIP customers ?

I don't think you can have it all, Barry.

LOL - another anonymous person distarcting. which vested interest do you have) 'flashing cash' snide remarks. I have really seen all these attempts to distract before.

 

It was at a dealer, anyone could have bought it - the issue was any member of the public being fleeced for a 200% mark up - the VIPs got them cheaper! grief

 

Are you really happy with the public paying vast amounts more than VIPs, with lots of cash - maybe you are the VIP - LOL 😉 

just give up the very bad trolling attempts to distract, it is embarrassing. 

[BarryWoods]

1 minute ago, Shinus73 said:

You have more time on your hands than I do! 🙂

Not really  - The FOI email address is on their website - email to it, subject Freedom Of Information Request.

 

Please provide me with RRP prices for all Gothic Crown Coins

 

Best Regards

 

Barry

 

job done.....

[Gordy]

52 minutes ago, Shinus73 said:

Sorry, I just think you're flat out wrong.

I've never bought anything from anywhere without knowing first what I should be paying for it.

You don't do this, you have nobody to blame but yourself.

Agreed, in this crazy world we live in called Precious Metal Narnia anyone knows that you need to research as prices change by the second just like stocks and shares (yes proof silver and gold are different) but you have bought 20k worth of bullion so you must have researched what other dealers are selling for to gauge the level of costs to the raw or spot price of the PM you were looking to buy.

I have encouraged mates to walk through the wardrobe into Narnia but they dont have the time to invest looking at price drops or rises and they would generally miss out on proof releases simply because they cant get onto sites and would ultimately have to buy on the secondary market as we all do tbh at times, 

I never buy bullion or new releases from the RM as i know that the dealers with have the coins in at some point or they will be up for sale on here so i wait and when they do come up for sale i always look at costings on premium percentage to the current price of spot metals.

THE TRICK IS PATIENCE FOR BULLION

AND SPEED FOR PROOF!!

 

[BarryWoods]

Currently the RM are 'investigating" and will get back to me in "due course" 

I started complaining about this dealer and mark ups of RRP quite a while ago.. and  about the really opaque route these coins take to all dealers

Still not got back to me. So they had their chance -  they really should take this seriously

(I did sends them a link to this post..) 😉

 

[BarryWoods]

1 minute ago, Gordy said:

Agreed, in this crazy world we live in called Precious Metal Narnia anyone knows that you need to research as prices change by the second just like stocks and shares (yes proof silver and gold are different) but you have bought 20k worth of bullion so you must have researched what other dealers are selling for to gauge the level of costs to the raw or spot price of the PM you were looking to buy.

I have encouraged mates to walk through the wardrobe into Narnia but they dont have the time to invest looking at price drops or rises and they would generally miss out on proof releases simply because they cant get onto sites and would ultimately have to buy on the secondary market as we all do tbh at times, 

I never buy bullion or new releases from the RM as i know that the dealers with have the coins in at some point or they will be up for sale on here so i wait and when they do come up for sale i always look at costings on premium percentage to the current price of spot metals.

THE TRICK IS PATIENCE FOR BULLION

AND SPEED FOR PROOF!!

 

I also have bought over £20k of bullion - that is a fair market..

 

I am talking about the PROF market, which is opaque - and Consumer Rights and Trading Standards and Distance Selling Laws apply - why is everyone being obtuse about this? 

[Gordy]

4 minutes ago, BarryWoods said:

Not really  - The FOI email address is on their website - email to it, subject Freedom Of Information Request.

 

Please provide me with RRP prices for all Gothic Crown Coins

 

Best Regards

 

Barry

 

job done.....

RRP prices are good but transparency is even better to allow for informed choices

There is a dealer on here who puts the intrinsic value of the coin/bar on the sales and prices with and without VAT and delivery so you know how much you are paying over spot and from that info you decide if you want to buy or not

It's simple really

 

[James32]

This is going absolutely nowhere fast....

Bit of thinking outside the box can fix this for everyone involved 🤔 

Party tonight at Barry's House and we can beat the sh#t out of a pinata fill with 2oz gold gothics before they are returned to store??

List of names below please😁

[HerefordBullyun]

Just now, James32 said:

This is going absolutely nowhere fast....

Bit of thinking outside the box can fix this for everyone involved 🤔 

Party tonight at Barry's House and we can beat the sh#t out of a pinata fill with 2oz gold gothics before they are returned to store??

List of names below please😁

Im in please provide free hoes and booze!

[Gordy]

1 minute ago, James32 said:

This is going absolutely nowhere fast....

Bit of thinking outside the box can fix this for everyone involved 🤔 

Party tonight at Barry's House and we can beat the sh#t out of a pinata fill with 2oz gold gothics before they are returned to store??

List of names below please😁

if i can bring my big pocket troosers

[NewCoins]

10 minutes ago, BarryWoods said:

LOL - another anonymous person distarcting. which vested interest do you have) 'flashing cash' snide remarks. I have really seen all these attempts to distract before.

 

It was at a dealer, anyone could have bought it - the issue was any member of the public being fleeced for a 200% mark up - the VIPs got them cheaper! grief

 

Are you really happy with the public paying vast amounts more than VIPs, with lots of cash - maybe you are the VIP - LOL 😉 

just give up the very bad trolling attempts to distract, it is embarrassing. 

The world is awash with people trying to make you buy stuff for more than its worth. A fool and their money...

Sure, dealers shouldn't be making it out to be RRP. Can you provide evidence they did that ?

The onus is on any consumer, buying from anywhere to know ebay they are buying. 

I really don't think the RM carries any blame here. They can't control what people do with coins they sell.