Is seeking 70 the slow decline & death of coin collecting ??? what's your thoughts

[Paul]

Are you a coin collector?

Do you enjoy the thrill of the hunt, the joy of discovering a rare gem, and the satisfaction of adding it to your collection?

Or are you just in it for the investment?

 

Whatever your motivation may be, there's no denying that the world of modern coin collecting has changed dramatically in recent years.

 

One of the biggest changes has been the rise of the "Guaranteed 70" coin.

It refers to coins that have been certified by a third-party grading service NGC or PCGS as being in perfect, flawless condition.

These coins are highly sought after by collectors and investors alike because they represent the pinnacle of quality.

But is the Guaranteed 70 coin the death knell of modern coin collecting?

Some could argue that it has ruined the concept of collecting from a hobby to being more like gambling or investing.

After all, if you can simply buy a coin that is guaranteed to be perfect, where's the challenge or fun in that?

Others argue that the Guaranteed 70 coin has its place in the hobby. It provides a clear benchmark for quality, and it allows collectors and investors to have confidence in their purchases. Plus, the thrill of finding a rare coin in perfect condition is still there, even if it's not as challenging as it once was.

 

What about the Royal Mint?

Beginning to strike private deals with the likes of Heritage to sell pre-graded 70s in the USA market

Should they not just ditch their own packaging and just sell everything in NGC 70 holders?

Some argue that this would significantly devalue their product, as part of the fun of collecting is in the hunt for that perfect coin.

Others argue that it would actually increase the value of their product, as collectors and investors would have more confidence in their purchases.

 

What do you think? share your thoughts

Is the Guaranteed 70 coin a good thing for modern coin collecting, or is it the death knell of the hobby?

Are 69s the ugly duckling ignored diamonds in the rough to buy it at much reduced price and enjoy the piece 

Should the Royal Mint embrace it or resist it? selling pre-graded 70s in the UK would certainly improve their PR for quality & guaranteed flaw free

It is certainly open up the discussion and hear your thoughts here

[Chorlton]

The grading is useful as confirming both what the coin is and its condition. This is helpful for people as not many have the knowledge to confirm what any coin is and also its grade. This does not mean ungraded coins have any issue and having found ungraded coins at good prices in excellent condition myself. Where I would fall down is in ancient coins which interest me but I have very little knowledge or experience in this area so grading could be very useful. For coins like Sovereigns not so much.

[SeverinDigsSovereigns]

Let's ask these questions:

Can you get 69, resubmit, and get 70 back?

Can you get one grade from PCGS, crack out and send to NGC, and get higher grades and vice versa?

Does this substantially increase the sales value of your coin?

If you answer yes to all above, then I think it's a yes to your question. Furthermore, while I agree that grading services help with verification and neutral assessment of condition, the entire idea of grading could be abused by all parties at the cost of collecting as a whole. More submissions, more grading fees, more profits for sellers, and everyone resting their coins in plastic holders, locked away, without ever looking at them.

Personally I don't mind spending a bit more for coins in higher grades, but once I get them I break the slabs. Still they'll be in capsules, but capsules are round at least.

Edited April 14, 2023 by SeverinDigsSovereigns

[refero]

seeking a "70" is the definitive step from a passion to an "activity"

[refero]

few years ago, when i wanted to complete the gothic portrait run (1985-1997), i tried to get, when possible (meaning that checking the coin in hand) raw coins in original boxes. When that was not possible i purposedly purchased PF69 coins as i refused to pay a sill premium for a 70, as the difference between the 2 grading was something i couldn't really enjoy/appreciate with my eyes. 

would have been a 70s run a better investment? for sure.

was that premium something i could have paid to get a better satisfaction from that coin? not at all

am i happy with my non 70s run? Yes, all the way in.

[Silverlocks]

IMO, if a brand new proof coin is grading any less than PF70 there's an issue with the manufacturer's QA - not looking at anyone in particular *cough*Royal Mint*cough*.  Mostly I'm buying bullion sovs and the fun there is to find the nice ones in the sales.  Would I buy graded sovs - maybe, but I wouldn't be keen to pay a big premium unless there was some other reason to get the coin, perhaps as a sample of one in good condition.  

Now, grading has its place.  If you're collecting silver dollars, for example, the price of these are often dominated by the numismatic value.  Folks often pay $100 or more, and sometimes many hundreds or even thousands, for a coin with a melt value of about $20.  There's also been historically a lot of forgery and alteration of coins using deceptive practices such as whizzing - this is how cleaning coins has gotten such an overreaching meaning and taboo in the industry.  In this case, having coins independently verified is of significant value.

For a shiny new proof coin?  Getting it slabbed for protection might be worth it, but IMO new proofs grading less than 70 is more a reflection on the manufacturer's quality control than the intrinsic value of the coins.  

It doesn't interest me a lot, but then proof coins don't interest me a lot to begin with.  They feel a lot like the sort of tat put out by Franklin Mint or Lladro - collectibles for the sake of collectibles.

 

[AppleZippoandMetronome]

I think the guaranteed grades as well as the amount of coins graded privately will definitely have an impact on the hobby in the future. Its difficult to imagine that this era of coin will be collected in 100 years time the same way we collect 100 year or more old coins today. You'll have a guaranteed pool of perfect coins out there rendering the hunt for the best example meaningless. You'd have to image coins of this era will also never see values the way coins of bygone eras do again because of the amount of them out there kept in good condition including those graded perfect. Today a top graded example of a really sought after coin from the past can fly at auction and achieve eye watering amounts because it might be the only example out there in that good condition. Modern coins will never experience that in the future because there will be a supply of perfect examples.

Of course there will be many coins graded 70 today that go on to be coins people don't want in the future. We've already seen examples of this with 70 graded coins coming back then developing milk spots or even that black burnt looking spot that seemed common for a while from NGC. Those coins are clear to the eye flawed yet they still carry the 70 grade. Silver coins can of course develop problems but so can gold coins with things like copper spots. As more and more coins graded 70 present with faults over time how long before this undermines grading generally and that grade of 70 begins to lose its meaning? Bit of a tangent there but its worth considering.

[HonestMoneyGoldSilver]

I think it's a scam in general as the only people making money are the grading services

IMHO the only coins worthy of grading and slabbing are historically important and rare coins or collector's editions, not fresh from the mint into a slab, what kind of heresy is that?

From a private seller POV the money you spend getting a modern coin graded is unlikely to be recouped in the sale price relative to ungraded coins in the same condition, which leads me back to the opening statement ... it's a scam in general to make folks part with their cash for no discernible reason.

*reiterate exceptions for historically important, rare or expensive coins when the fee for grading is negligible relative to the value/importance of the coin

@AppleZippoandMetronome makes very good points about coins degrading in slabs which are more and more common as the numbers increase. The ratings are subjective anyway as different assessors will give different grades, you can resubmit to get a different grade, there are now ➕ and ⭐ grades and lettering has also been considered, e.g. 69 ➕, 69 ⭐, 69 A, 69 B, 69 C, etc

Maybe if coins are graded by AI with lasers and scanners in an objective manner and it can be done for pennies, OK, great

[Zhorro]

I do wonder if we are looking too closely at our coins.

Modern technology means that we can take beautiful close-ups of our coins, but this then magnifies any minor flaws.

When there are such large price differences between a PF70 and a PF69, it is no wonder that collectors are so fussy when obtaining ungraded coins directly from mints.

[westminstrel]

I’ve always maintained that an AUTHENTICATION service is all that was ever needed because what collectors should care about first and foremost is whether a coin is genuine or not.

Everything else related to quality is subjective - beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and zooming in 10x to find flaws vs perfection is (imo) next level ridiculousness because it’s more a psychological assurance that your coin is “perfect” as you’d never know the difference between a 69/70 by simply looking at a coin with the naked eye.

I think grading is simply a business model that collectors have been slowly suckered into.

It’s a classic case of a business creating a “problem” so they can charge for the “solution”.

[jultorsk]

Imo resisting grading is not a hill worth dying on. Many giants of numismatics have tried and at the end, found it futile. 

Does it reduce the need for learning to "read the coin" and to be able to grade them yourself? Certainly.

Does it reduce the opportunities to find mispriced bargains? Absolutely.

Does it level the playing field and make the coin trading market more efficient? Yes indeed it does.

The last point is why it's here to stay.

[GoldDiggerDave]

Some very interesting points and questions @Paul The deeper the journey into this hobby, interest, business the more subjective it gets and you learn there is no one answer fits all. 

There is a reason why people like me, you and many others buy PF70UC modern proof coins over a lower grades is that it's the best way to guarantee your future investment as we know there are more people like us who want the best possible.

12 hours ago, Paul said:

Should the Royal Mint embrace it or resist it? selling pre-graded 70s in the UK would certainly improve their PR for quality & guaranteed flaw free

 

A "flaw free coin" does not exist but  this presumption or expectation  is making grading  a "necessary evil" for a lot  dealers due to the  frankly obsessive and at times  absurd expectations some people have for their raw new proof coins, they might as well grade or buy PF70UC coins to prevent the  back lash they get for selling a raw coin with the tiniest almost microscopic manufacturing imperfection.    Those buying raw coins who are hyper sensitive that  have no interest of grading them are driving the graded coin market wether they see it or not.  

There are many benefits when it comes to selling your graded collection as it makes it more saleable to more people in the wider market, I also think they store well many spend £1000's on storage solutions cases etc, they are easy to store and identify and nice to look at the day you go to see them in your safety deposit boxes. 

 

12 hours ago, Paul said:

Is the Guaranteed 70 coin a good thing for modern coin collecting, or is it the death knell of the hobby?

Should the RM sell PF70UC graded coins..........Absolutely yes I'd welcome that as it would continue to drive the graded coin market  it also benefits those who have raw coins as top graded coins sales  drive the market prices for the raw coins so everyone benefits.  

Is it a death knell........No why would it be?   Buyers have more options and if those don't want pre graded coins can continue to keep buying raw coins. 

Coin collecting is a massively diverse market and theres so many nuances and sub genres its big enough to cater for everyones wants and needs. 

 

 

 

[SidS]

Hopefully they all go gaga for 70s and then the VF coins I'm chasing will be cheaper. 😁

[watchesandwhisky]

If the royal Mint are selling pre graded 70s in the US then that just reinforces the reasons I stopped buying from them. 

No wonder QC is so bad, in many cases I'm sure they know they are sending out junk and just hope those buying wont notice, I mean any proof looks amazing compared to pocket change...(if that's still a thing these days!) The average buyer is probably like my parents, Have the funds to buy and think its a good idea but have no real idea on what quality standards should be nor the best eyesight..

The Royal Mint is not stupid and I refuse to believe such a company does not know exactly what kind of grades the coins they are sending out are, and whilst they are not going to give every coin the scrutiny a grading house would (or should..) I bet most people here who buy graded coins could make a pretty accurate judgement very quickly.

Its not as if they are going to be having unskilled agency workers doing QC, and the chances of getting a PF70 delivered from a ungraded purchase has to reduce if they are allocating them to the US.

For me buying coins IS about the thrill of the hunt, Finding a rare coin, finding a undervalued gem, a under graded piece ect..  Buying a guaranteed 70 would diminish that, but I get it - grading is a costly and time consuming process and since a 69 these days is seen as hardly worth being in a NGC/PCGS holder its a right gamble. 

From an investment point of view, how are the prices of 70 graded coins holding up in the cost of living crisis?? I know investment grade watches have cooled of somewhat but I must admit I am behind the times with coins right now.

Edited April 15, 2023 by watchesandwhisky

[Britannia47]

Proof sets in the past, were believed to be of the highest quality FDC etc. But now it seems the bar has been raised even higher, by the need for grading, in order to protect one’s investment, and of course the encouragement to do so by those involved in the process. However, I’m finding some view points a bit patronising and biased, (even snobbish) in referring to anything ungraded as ‘RAW’  It sounds like a label for those in the relegation zone!…….

[GoldDiggerDave]

2 minutes ago, Britannia47 said:

Proof sets in the past, were believed to be of the highest quality FDC etc. But now it seems the bar has been raised even higher, by the need for grading, in order to protect one’s investment, and of course the encouragement to do so by those involved in the process. However, I’m finding some view points a bit patronising and biased, (even snobbish) in referring to anything ungraded as ‘RAW’  It sounds like a label for those in the relegation zone!…….

I say raw all the time and I'm as common as they come!........It's a genuine first for me to be called a snobbish.....thank you .   Usually when people are talking about "slabbed" or "encapsulated"  then "raw" is used for the opposite in context. 

What  pronoun should a give a coins that not graded next time just so I don't up set someone?  "loose" "un slabbed'  just let me know I'm happy to cater to people sensibilities,  I'm all inclusive if anything!  

Those sets in the past I guarantee you I can take 4-8K photos of them like everyone is doing with the modern coins and I will find the same and in many cases more manufacturing defects then the new coins.  Do you have any examples of the quality differences you mention in your collection of "past FDC sets"   compared with latest 2022 proof sets on the market, I would genuinely like to see them?  

Are you seriously saying  none of 1902 proof sets sold and described as FDC  does not have any manufacturing  defects?      

 

 

 

 

[Paul]

Gold is going to $400oz anyway soon so we are snookered either way, graded or ungraded

[Britannia47]

20 minutes ago, GoldDiggerDave said:

 

The snobbish comment was a generalisation, not personal. Just like sugar, the opposite of ‘Raw’ is ‘Refined’ which immediately suggested to me that those in the Grading world look down their noses at anything ungraded. I have numerous Proof sets none of which is graded. It’s the way I like them. I agree that past sets may have had their flaws but they have gone unnoticed by me over the years. I took the RMs word for it that what was written on the box was the best that could be minted inside the box. What grading has done is made buyers with greater expectations, more meticulous and/or critical about the QC, judging by the numbers of 2022 sets sent back to the RM. That’s not a criticism by the way, but perfection we know is unobtainable. The 1902 matte proof long set was a one off, so not really comparable - but wish I’d bought one years ago. I’m happy with my 4 coin 1989 Sovereign set. 

I’m sure you provide a great service for TSF members, but it’s simply not for me. Yes, the RM is now using NGC. It has to jump onto the band-wagon to keep up. It doesn’t have the time or resources to give care and attention to every single coin to ensure the expected quality. Perhaps it relays on TSF to do the job for them!……👍

[richatthecroft]

The topic of Grading coins often arises on this forum in one guise or another.  
A couple of years ago, @SilverMike eloquently described the context of Grading at that time, and it continues to stand up-  although I don’t subscribe to all he says.

 

[Paul]

9 minutes ago, richatthecroft said:

The topic of Grading coins often arises on this forum in one guise or another.  
A couple of years ago, @SilverMike eloquently described the context of Grading at that time, and it continues to stand up-  although I don’t subscribe to all he says.

 

SilverMike makes some great points in that post.  Thanks for re-posting it @richatthecroft

The market will evolve and adapt to changing trends. Nothing ever stays the same for ever 

As in business, "if you don't innovate your evaporate". Everything is always in some state of change

Very interesting point he makes about institutions, big investors, banks, pension funds being in the market can easily explain why the very rarest graded pieces have exploded in price in the past 10 years knowing that fiat currency worldwide is being devalued at an alarming rate

Imagine how much fiat value can be stored in such a tiny space.  A NGC slab box, a box full of (x20) £100,000 graded pieces is £2million quid of value

Certainly interesting times we are in 

[GoldDiggerDave]

1 hour ago, Britannia47 said:

The snobbish comment was a generalisation, not personal. Just like sugar, the opposite of ‘Raw’ is ‘Refined’ which immediately suggested to me that those in the Grading world look down their noses at anything ungraded. I have numerous Proof sets none of which is graded. It’s the way I like them. I agree that past sets may have had their flaws but they have gone unnoticed by me over the years. I took the RMs word for it that what was written on the box was the best that could be minted inside the box. What grading has done is made buyers with greater expectations, more meticulous and/or critical about the QC, judging by the numbers of 2022 sets sent back to the RM. That’s not a criticism by the way, but perfection we know is unobtainable. The 1902 matte proof long set was a one off, so not really comparable - but wish I’d bought one years ago. I’m happy with my 4 coin 1989 Sovereign set. 

I’m sure you provide a great service for TSF members, but it’s simply not for me. Yes, the RM is now using NGC. It has to jump onto the band-wagon to keep up. It doesn’t have the time or resources to give care and attention to every single coin to ensure the expected quality. Perhaps it relays on TSF to do the job for them!……👍

Mate it’s all great fun, and it’s impossible and would be boring as hell if everyone had the same point of view.  
 

The whole coin collecting market is so subjective and it  can frustrate me some days, but also it what makes it so pleasurable.

The whole coin grading market has exploded over recent years, and I’m the first to say it has added more pros and cons into the mix.

It’s all about what the individual wants, I’ve graded a few of my 2022 proof sets but will also leave one or two in OMP, to give myself different options going forward.  I’m not saying grading coins is a guaranteed way to add value because it’s not all ways but he case, as a whole it does add value to the market imo. 
 

The difference between a 70/69 is almost impossible to see the difference sometimes, I’m doing a YT video soon showing a batch of graded 2oz silvers gothics, portrait and reverse of PF70UC to PF67UC to see if we all can see the difference in the grades, there are differences but if they were all in OMP (that’s better than raw) 😀most would struggle to see much of a difference in the spectrum of coins.

 

 

[Sc391]

Some excellent points made.  As I’ve said before on this forum I prefer raw coins - the packaging of more modern coins adds to the overall appeal and presentation of the coin.  

Grading is a subjective process and a big business.   Any time you have a service where you can get varying grades/opinions on the same coin is flawed - is your precious 70 diminished because another grader originally gave it a 69?  Don’t you think a big customer is going to get better service and grades than an individual?

 I read the agonies of members here returning countless items for micro flaws, trying to outguess the grading companies in advance.  For me this is a hobby with lots of reasons to collect besides perfection.  This pursuit of perfection is a bit of a dead end.  You’re never going to find it.  Someone will always have a different eye than you.

Now if I’m going in for brain surgery perfection is another expectation…..but for coins or stamps or whatever, maybe not so much.

[apachebleu]

 To me if the royalmint can guarantee pf70 coins toamerican dealers then there is no excuse for the rubbish they put out to regular buyers.

 With regards to if its a good thing to even grade? I'm not a big proof fan but from my point of view it has quickly became so ubiquitous that it can't be resisted if you have any aspirations of your collection being an investment. It seems now if a coins not a pf70 the market isn't interested.

 Now I think that's stupid but I have to accept that's how it is. Being Frank if I see a modern proof for sale that isn't graded I assume that is because the owner knows it won't do well. 

 It's a shame because it's made buying proofs a huge gamble, you spend thousands on a coin only to score a 69 and be potentially thousands in the hole over the tiniest of marks or the whims of an unknown inspector

[dicker]

Good points but I don’t think it will kill collecting.  It might create a tier in years ahead.

I see some very odd coins graded - where there is simply no point in my opinion because they are common and definitely not counterfeit. 

What it does do however is add an additional coat onto buying a coin (graded over non graded). That’s not going to help the lower end of the market.  
 

[apachebleu]

2 hours ago, dicker said:

 

I see some very odd coins graded - where there is simply no point in my opinion because they are common and definitely not counterfeit. 

 

 I agree, there are people grading modern bullion and that is bizarre, that better not become a thing!! I also see very co.mon and non collectable proofs graded such as 1oz silvers that cost nearly as much to grade as to buy.

 Sadly that sort of thing should be taken as a sign of just how essential grading is becoming. Look at things like comic books and how grading is everything...sadly collusion (allegedly) between auction houses and grading companies will push coins further in this direction