Is seeking 70 the slow decline & death of coin collecting ??? what's your thoughts

[Cogload]

Being slightly new to this malarky the thought strikes me - Quis custodiet ipsos custodes? 

Grading isn't a law of physics and as a recent episode of Bullion Now revealed neither is the result perfection when a 70 graded coin in a slab acquired milkspots. Sure, there will be an independent need to confirm that what you're buying is indeed what is being sold but what is the motivation for the grading companies and as the OP stated isn't this solely down to individual preference? 

 

[GoldDiggerDave]

It’s is amazing that many openly say they know nothing about a subject they then go on to talk about the industry and which direction it will go in.   
 

Look at the large established coin auction houses, look at the American market, look at the world markets……. There’s a big world out there and some can’t even see past the edge of their sofa.

 

 

 

 

[Cogload]

If that was a dig in my direction then it's water off a duck's back. I made no comment on whether it was a good or bad thing, merely that I am interested in the motivation of those who offer the service, that the service offered isn't a tablet of stone of which we must all worship but there is, as the market states, a requirement for that service. 

And that is down to the individual concerned. 

[GoldDiggerDave]

@Cogload a “dig” absolutely not just a statement of fact that people can’t see past the edge of their sofa.   Was it designed to provoke in a positive way?  100% Yes.  

Many know on here I’m a massive advocate for challenging people to learn and think for themselves rather living their lives by “comfortable assumptions”  I was one of these people, like most go to work, do what you are told, never really looking up and even trying to see the bigger picture.  

Always happy to talk,

 

 

 

[Cogload]

Sure Dave and your interests in this area are laudably clear.  

I could be really cynical in the observation that it is of course in the interests of grading companies that the fruits of their wares achieve higher prices then unslabbed coins - to the extent that the investment market is essentially forced to grade coins in order to achieve that greater return. 

And the grading companies can raise their prices in tandem. 

[apachebleu]

6 minutes ago, Cogload said:

Sure Dave and your interests in this area are laudably clear.  

I could be really cynical in the observation that it is of course in the interests of grading companies that the fruits of their wares achieve higher prices then unslabbed coins - to the extent that the investment market is essentially forced to grade coins in order to achieve that greater return. 

And the grading companies can raise their prices in tandem. 

 This has been posted here before, it's about auction houses and video games however it could easily be applied to any collectable. Also the companies involved in this have a presence in the numismatics field.

 

[GoldDiggerDave]

2 hours ago, apachebleu said:

 This has been posted here before, it's about auction houses and video games however it could easily be applied to any collectable. Also the companies involved in this have a presence in the numismatics field.

 

I really like this conversation as it’s good to see where people views lie.  The video goes on the say it exploits real collectors? Yet it shows moments before the real collectors were the only ones in the market, who happen to have  vast catalogues of the games so they are the ones that have massively gained overnight! 
 

open question to real collectors,  we have a coin collector with a 2oz proof Una and the Lion which he bought at RRP let’s say £4,950.  At what price will you allow him to sell it for  you to still consider him a “real collector” and at what price dose he’s sell where he is exploring “real collectors”. It would be good to see some honest reply’s.    
 

Also imagine you having this coin would you only sell it on for RRP? 

Edited April 18, 2023 by GoldDiggerDave

[Stuntman]

I'd say I'm a collector rather than a stacker, but I would make absolutely no judgement on anyone selling any coin for whatever price they choose.  Particularly if the market price for that coin is several multiples of their purchase price.

Collections, like stacks, are also stores of value.  If the market value of items in a collection has gone up a lot, at least considering to sell is very sensible.  The decision whether to sell will also depend on what other assets you own, and what stage of life you are at.

I have an art and sculpture collection.  I'd happily sell some items from this collection if the market price warranted it.  But in the meantime, like with my PM items, I'm happy to keep them and enjoy them.

On the specific question of graded coins - I can see why people want them - and if you want them, you'd chase the 70s for modern coins.  Thankfully (from the point of view of my bank balance) I prefer my coins unslabbed but I absolutely get the appeal.

 

[SidS]

I'd love some SLQs in MS70 that's for sure.

[CANV]

graded sovs are the next diamonds.! 

[apachebleu]

On 18/04/2023 at 11:21, GoldDiggerDave said:

I really like this conversation as it’s good to see where people views lie.  The video goes on the say it exploits real collectors? Yet it shows moments before the real collectors were the only ones in the market, who happen to have  vast catalogues of the games so they are the ones that have massively gained overnight! 
 

open question to real collectors,  we have a coin collector with a 2oz proof Una and the Lion which he bought at RRP let’s say £4,950.  At what price will you allow him to sell it for  you to still consider him a “real collector” and at what price dose he’s sell where he is exploring “real collectors”. It would be good to see some honest reply’s.    
 

Also imagine you having this coin would you only sell it on for RRP? 

 I don't view these things as 'real collectors' etc. It's too much like being a teenager and someone not being a real fan of a band because they don't have the albums released before they were famous. 

 With regards to your una, sell it for what it's worth, enjoy the coin or the money. I like the idea of a free market dictating a price, that's fair and how it should be.

If auction houses and graders are manipulating markets like in that video we no longer have a free market though.

 

 Oh and to be clear I would sell it for every penny I could get, that's life changing money for many people.

[Silverlocks]

On 18/04/2023 at 11:21, GoldDiggerDave said:

Also imagine you having this coin would you only sell it on for RRP? 

Maybe Una and the Lion isn't such a good example as it did go through the roof, but If I had bought just about any other RM limited edition proof at £4,950 RRP I'd be ever so happy if I could get that back for it.

[Shinus73]

6 hours ago, Silverlocks said:

Maybe Una and the Lion isn't such a good example as it did go through the roof, but If I had bought just about any other RM limited edition proof at £4,950 RRP I'd be ever so happy if I could get that back for it.

In nearly all cases, you will only get that back if you get a 70, which I suppose is the point of this thread.

Sell it raw, or graded below 70 and you’re losing money.

I’ve been grading coins for several years and enjoy that aspect of collecting, but can increasingly see the folly of grading every proof that the Mint releases and am now trying to limit my purchases to pre-graded versions at a decent prices, especially dirt cheap silver PF69’s. I’ve no idea if this is a good strategy long term.

Having said that, I’ve just had the e-mail telling me my 1 oz silver proof Merlin has been despatched, so still have work to do on limiting my purchases…

[Silverlocks]

13 minutes ago, Shinus73 said:

In nearly all cases, you will only get that back if you get a 70, which I suppose is the point of this thread.

As an investment, I can do that with ordinary bullion sovs without having to take a crapshoot on grading.  Getting something that has to come back PF70 in order to get your money back seems a bit of a waste.  I get why the RM charge so much - if the money didn't go them it would mostly go to scalpers, and the price is to sell to folks who will pay a premium for the latest.  That means that the actual market price is almost never going to reflect what you buy it from the Royal Mint for unless they capture lightning in a bottle like they did with Una and the Lion.

However, it's a bit of a reflection on RM's quality control that a brand new proof coin could grade anything other than PF70.  With today's manufacturing and precision die cutting tech, there's really no excuse. 

[Shinus73]

1 hour ago, Silverlocks said:

As an investment, I can do that with ordinary bullion sovs without having to take a crapshoot on grading.  Getting something that has to come back PF70 in order to get your money back seems a bit of a waste.  I get why the RM charge so much - if the money didn't go them it would mostly go to scalpers, and the price is to sell to folks who will pay a premium for the latest.  That means that the actual market price is almost never going to reflect what you buy it from the Royal Mint for unless they capture lightning in a bottle like they did with Una and the Lion.

However, it's a bit of a reflection on RM's quality control that a brand new proof coin could grade anything other than PF70.  With today's manufacturing and precision die cutting tech, there's really no excuse. 

Indeed, but you miss out on the odd one that takes off. Choices..

[Silverlocks]

14 minutes ago, Shinus73 said:

Indeed, but you miss out on the odd one that takes off. Choices..

You can make that argument about playing the lottery.  However, if you fancy yourself at picking winners and can win the scrum on the initial release of the coin, then you might get somewhere.  

I think it's a mug's game.  I've seen folks really struggle to flog big RM gold proofs here on more than one occasion, even dropping the price several thousand down from what they paid originally.  IMO RM proof coins at point of sale are bad mojo.  

Edited April 30, 2023 by Silverlocks

[Shinus73]

2 minutes ago, Silverlocks said:

You can make that argument about playing the lottery.

It’s less of a lottery than the actual lottery, but I take your point.
The only 1oz proof gold I’ve bought in recent years was the completer coin, it graded 70 and sells for double RRP. Combination of pot luck and some good judgement.