But You Need ID!

[KevjustKev]

Went down to a well known London dealer, I won't say who they might be, so I will not say it rhymes with hard!

They had in stock some dated Sov's I was willing to buy 4. I couldn't they wanted ID. Now I can well understand if you wish to sell, but to buy?

Two forms of photo ID, I haven't been able to drive for over 25 years, and due to health problems I will not be going aboard again, so no passport.

Round the corner to Hatton Garden Metals, no sov's, ended up at Sharps Pixley got 5, no questions and paid cash.

Why are 'hard' turning away custom? I know it's, to them, not a lot. But 1 person a day will to spend £1,000 that's over £250,000 a year!

Your views or ideas? 

[harrygill111]

If you had an ID, would you have given it to them? 

[harrygill111]

I dont buy the money laundering argument for IDs... you can go and buy a limited edition LV bag for £40k, or a pair of rare shoes, and sell on for a profit, no ID needed, no loss incured!  

Though you'd need to know shoes and handbags! 

Edited November 1, 2022 by harrygill111

[LawrenceChard]

1 hour ago, KevjustKev said:

Went down to a well known London dealer, I won't say who they might be, so I will not say it rhymes with hard!

They had in stock some dated Sov's I was willing to buy 4. I couldn't they wanted ID. Now I can well understand if you wish to sell, but to buy?

Two forms of photo ID, I haven't been able to drive for over 25 years, and due to health problems I will not be going aboard again, so no passport.

Round the corner to Hatton Garden Metals, no sov's, ended up at Sharps Pixley got 5, no questions and paid cash.

Why are 'hard' turning away custom? I know it's, to them, not a lot. But 1 person a day will to spend £1,000 that's over £250,000 a year!

Your views or ideas? 

But Chard don't have premises in London!

😎

[James32]

Bad poet is what I've learned 😅

[KevjustKev]

40 minutes ago, LawrenceChard said:

But Chard don't have premises in London!

😎

If it happed to be Chard's the rhyme would be Cards.

Back of the class lad!

[Essendie]

The ID thing is really annoying.

I'm partially sighted so if you are 4 feet away I can't really see you properly so I'm not legally allowed to drive.
There isn't much point going abroad when everything you see properly has to be within arms reach so I no longer have a passport.

It's not like I'm hard to find, I'm on the electoral register etc.. but more & more people demand driving licences or passports to do anything.

[LawrenceChard]

4 hours ago, KevjustKev said:

If it happed to be Chard's the rhyme would be Cards.

Back of the class lad!

I, and we are really called Chard. The only or main reason we changed to Chards is because we could not get the domain name Chard.co.uk, only Chards.co.uk, hence the tweak.

😎

[LawrenceChard]

6 hours ago, KevjustKev said:

Went down to a well known London dealer, I won't say who they might be, so I will not say it rhymes with hard!

They had in stock some dated Sov's I was willing to buy 4. I couldn't they wanted ID. Now I can well understand if you wish to sell, but to buy?

Two forms of photo ID, I haven't been able to drive for over 25 years, and due to health problems I will not be going aboard again, so no passport.

Round the corner to Hatton Garden Metals, no sov's, ended up at Sharps Pixley got 5, no questions and paid cash.

Why are 'hard' turning away custom? I know it's, to them, not a lot. But 1 person a day will to spend £1,000 that's over £250,000 a year!

Your views or ideas? 

It almost always makes sense to state the name, so what I think you wanted to say was Baird which rhymes with laird, or possibly Bairds which rhymes with lairds!

😎

[James32]

1 minute ago, LawrenceChard said:

I, and we are really called Chard. The only or main reason we changed to Chards is because we could not get the domain name Chard.co.uk, only Chards.co.uk, hence the tweak.

😎

@LawrenceChards doesn't have the same ring to it.

@lozcharriot

@charrylard

@LarryEden would have made you Blackpools biggest attraction 😆 

 

[sixgun]

If there were any legal requirement for ID then all dealers would be demanding ID - they aren't, so it isn't a requirement.
It is just Baird asking for ID b/c they have decided to do that.
Baird can ask for whatever they like before selling gold and silver - there is no obligation on you to show ID but then they won't sell you anything.

Do they take a copy of the ID - how do they store it? Do they comply with the Data Protection Act if they store it digitally?
Providing ID isn't a British thing other than if a copper stops you in your car and asks for your driving licence. In Spain for example you are supposed to carry ID when in public. It is an offence not to do so. When i recently bought a new SIM card in Spain i showed by national ID and the woman photocopied it. You have to provide passport / NIE number or you national ID even if it is pay as you go. ID is asked for quite often. If you want a receipt from some websites they won't give you it unless you provide your NIE / tax number. 

Baird lost some business - well that's their decision to do that b/c they will know some people won't have any ID with them. The real concern is if this spreads further.

[LawrenceChard]

8 hours ago, KevjustKev said:

Went down to a well known London dealer, I won't say who they might be, so I will not say it rhymes with hard!

They had in stock some dated Sov's I was willing to buy 4. I couldn't they wanted ID. Now I can well understand if you wish to sell, but to buy?

Two forms of photo ID, I haven't been able to drive for over 25 years, and due to health problems I will not be going aboard again, so no passport.

Round the corner to Hatton Garden Metals, no sov's, ended up at Sharps Pixley got 5, no questions and paid cash.

Why are 'hard' turning away custom? I know it's, to them, not a lot. But 1 person a day will to spend £1,000 that's over £250,000 a year!

Your views or ideas? 

 

6 hours ago, harrygill111 said:

I dont buy the money laundering argument for IDs... you can go and buy a limited edition LV bag for £40k, or a pair of rare shoes, and sell on for a profit, no ID needed, no loss incured!  

Though you'd need to know shoes and handbags! 

 

5 hours ago, Essendie said:

The ID thing is really annoying.

I'm partially sighted so if you are 4 feet away I can't really see you properly so I'm not legally allowed to drive.
There isn't much point going abroad when everything you see properly has to be within arms reach so I no longer have a passport.

It's not like I'm hard to find, I'm on the electoral register etc.. but more & more people demand driving licences or passports to do anything.

 

1 hour ago, sixgun said:

If there were any legal requirement for ID then all dealers would be demanding ID - they aren't, so it isn't a requirement.
It is just Baird asking for ID b/c they have decided to do that.
Baird can ask for whatever they like before selling gold and silver - there is no obligation on you to show ID but then they won't sell you anything.

Do they take a copy of the ID - how do they store it? Do they comply with the Data Protection Act if they store it digitally?
Providing ID isn't a British thing other than if a copper stops you in your car and asks for your driving licence. In Spain for example you are supposed to carry ID when in public. It is an offence not to do so. When i recently bought a new SIM card in Spain i showed by national ID and the woman photocopied it. You have to provide passport / NIE number or you national ID even if it is pay as you go. ID is asked for quite often. If you want a receipt from some websites they won't give you it unless you provide your NIE / tax number. 

Baird lost some business - well that's their decision to do that b/c they will know some people won't have any ID with them. The real concern is if this spreads further.

ID requirements for buying and selling investment gold have been discussed her on TSF and elsewhere as nauseam.

Very simply there are recorda which must be kept by almost anyone in the UK, or EU, who delas in investment gold.

 

Some of these are detailed here:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/gold-acquisitions-imports-investments-and-vat-notice-70121

7. Records to be kept
7.1 Records to be kept for gold delivered or taken away by your customer
This section has force of law.

If you sell exempt investment gold which is delivered or available to be taken away by your customer, you must keep the following information as part of your business records. These requirements do not apply if you make supplies described within paragraphs 7.2, 7.3(a), 7.6 and 8.2.

This applies whether or not you’re registered for VAT.

(a) Accounting record

You must keep and maintain a record showing the following details:

invoice number
invoice date
customer reference number
customer’s VAT registration number (if applicable)
description of the gold (form, quantity and purity)
name and address of the agent (if applicable)
name and address of the purchaser
transaction value
(b) Customer record

You must keep and maintain a record identifying customers who purchase exempt investment gold. This record must have a unique reference number and contain the following information:

name
date of birth
current address
phone number (if available)
You must take reasonable steps to make sure that your customer has given you correct information. In order to do this, you must ask for and examine at least one document from each of the following lists:

List 1:

Passport
Full driving licence
National Insurance card
Birth certificate
National identity card
List 2:

Phone bill
Other utility bill
Deeds
Tenancy lease
Council tax bill
Hotel key card (for non-UK residents only)
You may agree alternative satisfactory evidence with our Written Enquiries Section.

If possible, you should keep a copy of the documents you see. You should write on each copy ‘certified as original document’. You must sign and date this declaration.

If it’s not possible to keep a copy of the document you see, you must record, as part of your customer record, sufficient details to let us to obtain a copy if we ask. As a minimum you should record the:

name of the document
reference number
name and address of the issuing authority
You must insist that your customer produces the original document. You must keep the record up to date.

(c) Method of keeping the required particulars.

Where you’re required to keep and maintain the records specified in parts a) and b) of this paragraph you may, as an alternative, keep and maintain the details required in a manner which is convenient for your business provided both:

all the details specified are accessible for inspection by a VAT officer
you’ve agreed the format with our Written Enquiries Section

The above is in addition to anti-money laundering requirements.

It is also important to note:

6.2 When you need to issue an invoice for sales of exempt investment gold
This section has force of law.

You must issue an invoice for:

each sale involving exempt investment gold which exceeds £5,000
smaller transactions if the total value of sales to that customer has exceeded £10,000 in the last 12 months.

This is a bit of a catch-22, because although it infers that traders do not need to issue an invoice for sales under £5000, they are required to do so for customers who purchases exceed £10,000 in any roling 12 months period. It is therefore necessary to keep records, including ID, for any and all transactions where they customer might spend £10,000 in a tear.

There are other details which I have not included above, but it appears highly likely that Sharps Pixley are at high risk of failing to keep the appropriate records required by HMRC.

Potential penalties are severe, at 17.5% of the sale value.

9. Penalties
9.1 The purpose of penalties on gold
Gold frequently moves between the taxable (industrial) and exempt (investment) markets and can be easily transformed into taxable gold or gold products such as jewellery. We need a full audit trail in order to make sure that VAT is properly accounted for when this happens.

The notification, invoicing, and record keeping requirements described in section 3, section 6 and section 7 provide this audit trail. The Finance Act 2000 introduced a penalty, chargeable when businesses (whether or not they’re registered or liable to be registered for VAT) do not satisfy these requirements.

If you’re assessed for this penalty it does not mean that you’re suspected of involvement in a VAT fraud.

9.2 When penalties are charged
You’ll only be charged a penalty if we’re not satisfied that you’ve a reasonable excuse, see paragraph 9.6, and we may reduce the amount of the penalty if this is justified in the circumstances of the case, see paragraph 9.7.

9.3 Time limit for assessing penalties
The penalty will not be assessed more than 4 years after the transaction date, or more than 2 years after we had sufficient facts to make the assessment.

9.4 Amount of the penalty
The penalty will normally be 17.5% of the value of the transactions concerned.

9.5 Best judgement
Where there’s doubt about the value of the transactions, we’ll assess the penalty on the basis of our best judgement. We’ll consider all the relevant material before us, making an honest and fair estimate of the value of the transactions involved.

9.6 Reasonable excuse
We will not impose a penalty if you have a reasonable excuse for failing to comply with the requirements. Although reasonable excuse is not defined in law, we do not regard insufficient funds or reliance on information from a third party as being a reasonable excuse. Ignorance of the law would not normally constitute a reasonable excuse either, although it may be a mitigating factor, see paragraph 9.7.

We’ll look carefully at the individual circumstances of each case, and take into account whether or not the circumstances could be foreseen and what steps were taken to make alternative arrangements. We’ll also consider whether you contacted HMRC for help and advice, and whether you gave sufficient priority to meeting your obligations.

Considering all the above, it is surprising that any major investment gold dealer would risk failing to keep proper required records as described above, including the ID of their customers.

😎

[MonkeysUncle]

Yup, there is a risk, how little or large I know not, of a dealer feeling the hand of Hector the Tax Inspector. 

Some ask and some frankly couldn't give a toot once they've seen the colour of your money.

[sixgun]

@LawrenceChard - the HMRC webpage says
You must take reasonable steps to make sure that your customer has given you correct information. In order to do this, you must ask for and examine at least one document from each of the following lists: - [List of ID documents.]

This is in section 7 of the webpage - this section does not make mention of the thresholds of £5000 for a single purchase - £10000 total of all purchases in the year, however section 7 talks about invoices and since elsewhere it states there is no obligation to issue an invoice if a purchase(s) do not breach the thresholds, then section 7 only applies to these larger purchases.

It appears to me that there is no obligation on dealers to ask for ID for purchases under the thresholds. Perhaps Bairds are capturing all customers for their convenience in preparation for if they go over the annual limit. 

[bluemoon]

ID must be resisted as hard as resisting a cashless society because it boils down to the same concepts. We on a forum like this all know why companies are doing it and we all know why we shouldn't let them. I really don't have sympathy for reps who cite legislation for their reasons for demanding ID. It's just not true (at least for <£7500).

It's like those new self service checkouts at Tesco which are card only, even though their previous machines could process cash just fine. It's "nudging", to use a coined phrase these days.

Vote with your wallet and take your business away from them. I'm glad there are still some dealers who play nice regarding ID, we must encourage those ones to carry on like that. Edited November 1, 2022 by bluemoon

[LawrenceChard]

2 hours ago, sixgun said:

@LawrenceChard - the HMRC webpage says
You must take reasonable steps to make sure that your customer has given you correct information. In order to do this, you must ask for and examine at least one document from each of the following lists: - [List of ID documents.]

This is in section 7 of the webpage - this section does not make mention of the thresholds of £5000 for a single purchase - £10000 total of all purchases in the year, however section 7 talks about invoices and since elsewhere it states there is no obligation to issue an invoice if a purchase(s) do not breach the thresholds, then section 7 only applies to these larger purchases.

It appears to me that there is no obligation on dealers to ask for ID for purchases under the thresholds. Perhaps Bairds are capturing all customers for their convenience in preparation for if they go over the annual limit. 

You should carefully re-read my quotes from the HMRC website.

While it does state there is no obligation on smaller purchases, the big catch is that if and when those small purchases exceed £10,000 in any rolling 12 months period, the delaer must then ensure he records all investment gold transactions with that customer. It is only possible to ensure you do not fall foul of that requirement by being cautious enough to record every transaction with every customer, otherwise... drastic penalties!

And that is all without including the anti money laundering responsibilities. Fall foul of those, and you could be looking at penalties up to 10% of your annual turnover.

For any major dealer, it would be stupid and negligent to take such big risks when the potential penalties are so high.

Although major international banks seem to get caught in money laundering scams quite frequently, but I guess they are happy to take the risk with their shareholders money in order to get mega bonuses. They also have access to some of the top legal advisors.

😎

 

[flyingveepixie]

10 hours ago, bluemoon said:

It's like those new self service checkouts at Tesco which are card only, even though their previous machines could process cash just fine. It's "nudging", to use a coined phrase these days.

These bloody things really do my head in.  I wont use 'em at all and will willingly stand in a queue to pay with FIAT to a real person at the till every time unless there is no other alternative.

Edited November 2, 2022 by flyingveepixie

[MonkeysUncle]

Unexpected item in the bagging area. Grrr.

Unexpected shattered display with fist attachment. 

Bloody machines. Arnold Scwarzeneger warned us. These things are far worse than Terminators!

 

[Petra]

Quite amusing when I get my bag of loose change out so as to pay the exact amount! Rush you through, nearly pushing your stuff off the counter whilst trying to pack, then ‘cash or card’! Just a minute! Finish packing, and check the wallet .. even though I know, just slow down!🫢

[ady]

18 hours ago, Essendie said:

It's not like I'm hard to find, I'm on the electoral register etc.. but more & more people demand driving licences or passports to do anything.

This might be as easy as you think. The electoral register is not easily accessed here. It has been removed from all libraries and only accessible by appointment at the central library.

[ArgentSmith]

When all this KYC thing was rolled out they blamed it on terrorists 🤣  in reality its about tax and compliance, the Government are by nature parasitical and destroy value at every intervention.

[gji25]

so how come if you illegally travel from calais in france to kent in the uk you do not need id and they just throw money at you ?

how does this make any sense or are they just day trippers looking to buy gold at bairds 

 

Edited November 2, 2022 by gji25

[Bogart]

On 01/11/2022 at 11:01, KevjustKev said:

Went down to a well known London dealer, I won't say who they might be, so I will not say it rhymes with hard!

They had in stock some dated Sov's I was willing to buy 4. I couldn't they wanted ID. Now I can well understand if you wish to sell, but to buy?

Two forms of photo ID, I haven't been able to drive for over 25 years, and due to health problems I will not be going aboard again, so no passport.

Round the corner to Hatton Garden Metals, no sov's, ended up at Sharps Pixley got 5, no questions and paid cash.

Why are 'hard' turning away custom? I know it's, to them, not a lot. But 1 person a day will to spend £1,000 that's over £250,000 a year!

Your views or ideas? 

What do youexpect when you go to a dealer who has just been sacked as a premier league manager. Seriously I posted on here about the same crowd. Talk about needing to jump through hoops and them blatantly lying about the legalities.

Also maybe if HMRC got off their arses and chased the real villians we might accept these stupid regulations more easily. I am flogging all my gold and buying a house in Mayfair through a company in South America, owned by some bloke

called Rishi.

Edited November 2, 2022 by Bogart

[LawrenceChard]

14 hours ago, bluemoon said:

ID must be resisted as hard as resisting a cashless society because it boils down to the same concepts. We on a forum like this all know why companies are doing it and we all know why we shouldn't let them. I really don't have sympathy for reps who cite legislation for their reasons for demanding ID. It's just not true (at least for <£7500).

It's like those new self service checkouts at Tesco which are card only, even though their previous machines could process cash just fine. It's "nudging", to use a coined phrase these days.

Vote with your wallet and take your business away from them. I'm glad there are still some dealers who play nice regarding ID, we must encourage those ones to carry on like that.

3 hours ago, flyingveepixie said:

These bloody things really do my head in.  I wont use 'em at all and will willingly stand in a queue to pay with FIAT to a real person at the till every time unless there is no other alternative.

2 hours ago, MonkeysUncle said:

Unexpected item in the bagging area. Grrr.

Unexpected shattered display with fist attachment. 

Bloody machines. Arnold Scwarzeneger warned us. These things are far worse than Terminators!

I never use self service checkouts, although I did try them in their early days.

We used to have a big Safeway supermarket nearby, and it was one of the first in the UK to use them. It seemed a reasonable idea at the time, so I tried it out. Every time I used them, which was probably no more than 3 times, there were some items which would not scan correctly. Safeway's system therefore logged these failures in its own system as mine. This got me thinking further ahead. If their imperfect systems could blame me for their errors, what might happen later, and what might happen if there was a future error which was mine? I decided the risk was not worthwhile, especially as self-checkout is mainly for the supermarket's benefit rather than mine.

Unfortunately, many other retailers have now adopted self service checkouts, and although I believe they have improved considerably, neither I nor my wife use them. We would rather wait longer, or get a staff member to do the checkout.

There are some other ethical questions which become relevant here.

If a cashier fails to scan an item, lets say for £1, and you notice when you get home, what could / should you do. Phone, at a slight cost to yourself, or try to phone, the store and tell them, or go straight back round to the store, which would also cost you, to do the same, wait until next time you visit, or simply keep quiet?

What if the store overcharged you, perhaps by overscanning one item. Do you even bother telling them, especially if it is only a small amount. It will probably cost you more in time and other possibly costs, than the item value. If you wouldn't bother reclaiming an overcharge, then is it ethical not to bother reporting an undercharge? IS it different if a larger amount is involved, and if so, what would an appropriate threshold be?

Now consider the same points after a self service, Do you report to the store that you have undercharged yourself? What if you overcharged yourself?

What would the store's view on any of the above? How do you know without having a discussion, and perhaps getting a written answer?

It could be far simpler to refuse to use self service. If everyone did this, no stores would continue to use them. It would also work if sufficient people refused to use them.

I don't know about you all, but I also find it frustrating at least when store staff try to direct me to self service. There is probably no point trying to explain any of the reasons. They are mainly just carrying out their instructions for which they get paid, and your feedback is unlikely to get passed back up along the chain.

While I am on this subject, I am happy to confirm that @ChardsCoinandBullionDealer has absolutely no intention of introducing self service checkout in its showroom!

😎

1 hour ago, gji25 said:

so how come if you illegally travel from calais in france to kent in the uk you do not need id and they just throw money at you ?

how does this make any sense or are they just day trippers looking to buy gold at bairds 

 

And why don't they land in Scotland and buy their gold from lairds?

😎

[LawrenceChard]

On 01/11/2022 at 11:01, KevjustKev said:

Went down to a well known London dealer, I won't say who they might be, so I will not say it rhymes with hard!

 

It's just as well it was not James Stunt you went to!

😎