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Is it usual to refuse other Gold than 24 Carat as a Newbie?


Epictetus

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When gold coins were in circulation they were alloyed with other metals to make them durable. Now most gold coins are minted for collectors and investment purposes , it seems logical to produce 24K only.  But the Royal mint sticks with the 200 year tradition of minting sovereigns in 22K gold. Rightly so . There are  Britannia's for those  who like their gold shiny and yellow .

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I had the same idea in the beginning. I thought that an investment stack should be 9999 gold (or 999 silver).

Then I learned of the value of historical coins over bullion where fractionals are concerned.

Then I learned to love to actually handle my coins.

In the end I learned that it doesn't really matter so much.

 

Having said that, there is something to be said about a clear yellow colour of gold - nothing is like it.

There is alloyed gold that still keeps that lustre - everything that uses both silver and cooper for alloying.

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12 hours ago, sixgun said:

Small brown penny sized coins (aka older sovereigns) look like pennies in airport X-ray scanner trays, in purses and pockets - no-one is interested in pennies so no questions are ever asked. 
All that glisters is not gold - and all gold does not glister but it is still gold. Give it time and you will come to realise - gold is gold and that is what matters. 

I've got some bad news for you...

If the gold sovereigns in your stash are all penny sized, you should take another close look at them! 🙂

Chards

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37 minutes ago, LawrenceChard said:

I've got some bad news for you...

If the gold sovereigns in your stash are all penny sized, you should take another close look at them! 🙂

A UK penny is 20.3mm, a half sovereign is 19.33mm and a full sovereign 22.05mm.
Do you really think a purse or an airport X-ray tray with these coins in is going to get noticed?
People don't notice - i know they don't notice.

Indeed i have to look at the coin's face to distinguish a 2 euro cent from a 5 euro cent even after years of using them. People don't notice.

Edited by sixgun

Always cast your vote - Spoil your ballot slip. Put 'Spoilt Ballot - I do not consent.' These votes are counted. If you do not do this you are consenting to the tyranny. None of them are fit for purpose. 
A tyranny relies on propaganda and force. Once the propaganda fails all that's left is force.

COVID-19 is a cover story for the collapsing economy. Green Energy isn't Green and it isn't Renewable.

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36 minutes ago, sixgun said:

A UK penny is 20.3mm, a half sovereign is 19.33mm and a full sovereign 22.05mm.
Do you really think a purse or an airport X-ray tray with these coins in is going to get noticed?
People don't notice - i know they don't notice.

Indeed i have to look at the coin's face to distinguish a 2 euro cent from a 5 euro cent even after years of using them. People don't notice.

I understand and agree with your basic point, and was just doing my usual thing is being pedantic and having a little fun.

If you are not too bothered about the slight size difference, I could sell you some 19.30mm full sovereigns at a substantial difference compared with the usual 22.05mm ones! 🙂

Chards

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1 hour ago, LawrenceChard said:

I understand and agree with your basic point, and was just doing my usual thing is being pedantic and having a little fun.

If you are not too bothered about the slight size difference, I could sell you some 19.30mm full sovereigns at a substantial difference compared with the usual 22.05mm ones! 🙂

Yes i realised you were pulling my leg but i wanted to use the opportunity to reinforce how these small gold coins especially if they aren't too shiny or are copper coloured could be a life saver in an emergency situation. You have £5000 in pennies in your pocket which a mugger would ignore in preference to a plastic £5 note. Enough gold to save you in a Mad Max situation is very portable and can be inconspicuous. Always something to bear in mind even if the situation never arose, God willing.

Edited by sixgun

Always cast your vote - Spoil your ballot slip. Put 'Spoilt Ballot - I do not consent.' These votes are counted. If you do not do this you are consenting to the tyranny. None of them are fit for purpose. 
A tyranny relies on propaganda and force. Once the propaganda fails all that's left is force.

COVID-19 is a cover story for the collapsing economy. Green Energy isn't Green and it isn't Renewable.

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I have preferred to buy mostly 22ct gold and some 18ct and even 9ct. However not as much of the latter.

Sovereigns will always be popular.

As others have said above, gold is gold and you will most likely pay for the premium of 24ct. I’ve managed to pick up some 22ct and 18ct rings (plain bands) for just 1-3% over the spot price of the gold content.

Gold really is gold but it all really depends on your reasons for wanting to buy gold in the first place.

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2 hours ago, sixgun said:

Yes i realised you were pulling my leg but i wanted to use the opportunity to reinforce how these small gold coins especially if they aren't too shiny or are copper coloured could be a life saver in an emergency situation. You have £5000 in pennies in your pocket which a mugger would ignore in preference to a plastic £5 note. Enough gold to save you in a Mad Max situation is very portable and can be inconspicuous. Always something to bear in mind even if the situation never arose, God willing.

Another alternative is to hand the mugger £5000 in actual pennies, then either call the police, or wait for him to die of a heart attack, while he hauls off 1.78 tonnes of copper plated steel.

If the mugger is reluctant to take them, simply tell him they are Royal Mint half sovereigns, while keeping a straight face. 🙂

Chards

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5 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

As a number of members have already pointed out, most circulation gold coins were alloyed to make them more durable.

Two slightly different systems evolved, namely 900 and 916 fine gold (90.0% and 91.66%). There is not much difference between these.

When the EU and UK recognised "Investment Gold" as VAT exempt as from 1st January 2000, they decided that, to qualify as "Investment Gold", coins had to be at least 90% fine gold, which acknowledged the precedent and tradition which had evolved. Gold bullion bars, however, in order to qualify as "Investment Gold", had to be at least 99.5% gold, which also recognised the existing international standards for good delivery bars which had evolved over a long period of time. Most "small" gold bars, usually one kilo downwards are actually produced in 99.99% gold, a.k.a. "four nines",  In 1979, the Royal Canadian Mint were the first to introduce fine gold (maple leaf) bullion coins, initially in 99.9% (three nines), then later in 99.99, and ultimately also 99.999% (five nines).

It is good that we now all have a choice, traditional gold coins or newer fine gold coins. To the pure investor, it should not matter much, just buy whatever has the lowest premium (within reason). If you are buying as a collector, or for aesthetic reasons, then buy the colour, type, size, and alloy of coins you like best, but be aware that you might be paying slightly higher premiums to be able to exercise your choice.

Also, when it comes to sell, bear in mind that not everybody will share your preferences, so paying a higher premium will probably give you a lower financial return, but this is offset by the pleasure of owning what pleases you more.

One more historical point though is that if we go back to ancient times or antiquity, most gold coins did not circulate freely, but were used as stores of value and a means of exchange, so they were mainly kept in treasuries, and not often seen by the general population. They did not need to be mechaniclly durable. These earlier gold coins were usually made using the purest gold which was commonly obtainable using the refining methods readily available. The very earliest "gold" coins, from ancient Lydia, were made from electrum, a naturally occurring alloy of gold and silver (no refining or alloying necessary). Later gold coins were often produced in 23ct or 23.5ct gold alloy, again almost certaianly because this was a convenient alloy to use without resorting to extra cost and effort involved in further refining.

So, in older times, gold coins were traditionally made with nearly-fine gold.

Choose your preferred tradition! 🙂

The Royal Mint has clearly chosen its own tradtition. Back in about 2000, some nameless person at the Royal Mint appears to have decided or misunderstood that British gold coins were traditionally made using a red gold alloy, sometimes called pink gold or rose gold. This is achieved by adding only copper to the pure gold, instead of a mixture of copper and silver. This was of course incorrect nonsense, but the RM, in its infinite wisdom (?), has continued to follow its own newly created tradition. This is why modern sovereigns are a revolting red, instead of yummy yellow, and look like copper discs instead of real gold coins. I have never discovered anything in any of the many "Coinage Acts" or other Royal Mint historical document which specifies that no silver should be used in its gold coins.

Almost every collector, stacker, or member of TSF knows that "older" sovereigns look better than modern sovereigns. Most probably also know that it's because there is some silver content. I have tested hundreds, possibly thousands, of sovereigns, halves, doubles and quintuples, and noted that most pre QEII sovereigns contain about 3 parts per thousand of silver. This is enough to make them look desirable. It is my sincere hope that some day, someone at the RM will open their eyes and ears, and come to realise that adding some silver woulf imrove their product, and do so at an almost negligible cost. They could commission some consumer research to resolve any uncertainty. The change may never happen as doing so might mean admitting they were wrong for the past twenty or more years, and that I, along with most collectors, dealers, and ordinary people were right.

 

If they changed it back to gold colour it could become crucial for smaller collections to have at least one rose sovereign, in the future. Changing it back to gold colour, would make them more special. That's how you would have to try and convince the Royal Mint - as great as it was to have them (cough) as great it is to get rid of them - just like with guests in your house, after a few days.

 

5 hours ago, sixgun said:

Yes i realised you were pulling my leg but i wanted to use the opportunity to reinforce how these small gold coins especially if they aren't too shiny or are copper coloured could be a life saver in an emergency situation. You have £5000 in pennies in your pocket which a mugger would ignore in preference to a plastic £5 note. Enough gold to save you in a Mad Max situation is very portable and can be inconspicuous. Always something to bear in mind even if the situation never arose, God willing.

I'm wondering how many full and half sovereigns you could get into a normal jar and if they would bother at airports, specially if you blended a few real pennies in.

...

It's nice to have a few 24K gold coins so you know how the look but 90% and 22K is much more preferable if you want to keep it interesting and get loads of different coins from the last 2 centuries, many of which you get a rather low premiums.

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8 hours ago, sixgun said:

People don't notice - i know they don't notice.

Indeed i have to look at the coin's face to distinguish a 2 euro cent from a 5 euro cent even after years of using them. People don't notice.

Is that in Tesco, like Brett Richardson?

Chards

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24 minutes ago, LawrenceChard said:

Is that in Tesco, like Brett Richardson?

No - Birmingham airport.

Always cast your vote - Spoil your ballot slip. Put 'Spoilt Ballot - I do not consent.' These votes are counted. If you do not do this you are consenting to the tyranny. None of them are fit for purpose. 
A tyranny relies on propaganda and force. Once the propaganda fails all that's left is force.

COVID-19 is a cover story for the collapsing economy. Green Energy isn't Green and it isn't Renewable.

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10 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

As a number of members have already pointed out, most circulation gold coins were alloyed to make them more durable.

Two slightly different systems evolved, namely 900 and 916 fine gold (90.0% and 91.66%). There is not much difference between these.

When the EU and UK recognised "Investment Gold" as VAT exempt as from 1st January 2000, they decided that, to qualify as "Investment Gold", coins had to be at least 90% fine gold, which acknowledged the precedent and tradition which had evolved. Gold bullion bars, however, in order to qualify as "Investment Gold", had to be at least 99.5% gold, which also recognised the existing international standards for good delivery bars which had evolved over a long period of time. Most "small" gold bars, usually one kilo downwards are actually produced in 99.99% gold, a.k.a. "four nines",  In 1979, the Royal Canadian Mint were the first to introduce fine gold (maple leaf) bullion coins, initially in 99.9% (three nines), then later in 99.99, and ultimately also 99.999% (five nines).

It is good that we now all have a choice, traditional gold coins or newer fine gold coins. To the pure investor, it should not matter much, just buy whatever has the lowest premium (within reason). If you are buying as a collector, or for aesthetic reasons, then buy the colour, type, size, and alloy of coins you like best, but be aware that you might be paying slightly higher premiums to be able to exercise your choice.

Also, when it comes to sell, bear in mind that not everybody will share your preferences, so paying a higher premium will probably give you a lower financial return, but this is offset by the pleasure of owning what pleases you more.

One more historical point though is that if we go back to ancient times or antiquity, most gold coins did not circulate freely, but were used as stores of value and a means of exchange, so they were mainly kept in treasuries, and not often seen by the general population. They did not need to be mechaniclly durable. These earlier gold coins were usually made using the purest gold which was commonly obtainable using the refining methods readily available. The very earliest "gold" coins, from ancient Lydia, were made from electrum, a naturally occurring alloy of gold and silver (no refining or alloying necessary). Later gold coins were often produced in 23ct or 23.5ct gold alloy, again almost certaianly because this was a convenient alloy to use without resorting to extra cost and effort involved in further refining.

So, in older times, gold coins were traditionally made with nearly-fine gold.

Choose your preferred tradition! 🙂

The Royal Mint has clearly chosen its own tradtition. Back in about 2000, some nameless person at the Royal Mint appears to have decided or misunderstood that British gold coins were traditionally made using a red gold alloy, sometimes called pink gold or rose gold. This is achieved by adding only copper to the pure gold, instead of a mixture of copper and silver. This was of course incorrect nonsense, but the RM, in its infinite wisdom (?), has continued to follow its own newly created tradition. This is why modern sovereigns are a revolting red, instead of yummy yellow, and look like copper discs instead of real gold coins. I have never discovered anything in any of the many "Coinage Acts" or other Royal Mint historical document which specifies that no silver should be used in its gold coins.

Almost every collector, stacker, or member of TSF knows that "older" sovereigns look better than modern sovereigns. Most probably also know that it's because there is some silver content. I have tested hundreds, possibly thousands, of sovereigns, halves, doubles and quintuples, and noted that most pre QEII sovereigns contain about 3 parts per thousand of silver. This is enough to make them look desirable. It is my sincere hope that some day, someone at the RM will open their eyes and ears, and come to realise that adding some silver woulf imrove their product, and do so at an almost negligible cost. They could commission some consumer research to resolve any uncertainty. The change may never happen as doing so might mean admitting they were wrong for the past twenty or more years, and that I, along with most collectors, dealers, and ordinary people were right.

 

@LawrenceChard for prime minister!

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On 15/08/2021 at 04:56, SidS said:

I agree with all the above comments about modern sovereigns though, that coppery look isn't great - 'rose gold' or whatever they like to term it, it just screams 9k at me rather than 22k

I like all forms of gold but white gold, its just silver looking gold...but I have everything from 9kt to raw nuggets from Alaska which btw is only 22k on average so the way it comes out of the ground is sovereign purity so to me 22k is good.

Edited by DarkChameleon
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4 hours ago, DarkChameleon said:

I like all forms of gold but white gold, its just silver looking gold...but I have everything from 9kt to raw nuggets from Alaska which btw is only 22k on average so the way it comes out of the ground is sovereign purity so to me 22k is good.

Yeah white gold, I don't get that either. I'd rather have silver... the real deal rather than the substitute! 😁

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On 15/08/2021 at 12:08, LawrenceChard said:

The Royal Mint has clearly chosen its own tradtition. Back in about 2000, some nameless person at the Royal Mint appears to have decided or misunderstood that British gold coins were traditionally made using a red gold alloy, sometimes called pink gold or rose gold. This is achieved by adding only copper to the pure gold, instead of a mixture of copper and silver. This was of course incorrect nonsense, but the RM, in its infinite wisdom (?), has continued to follow its own newly created tradition. This is why modern sovereigns are a revolting red, instead of yummy yellow, and look like copper discs instead of real gold coins. I have never discovered anything in any of the many "Coinage Acts" or other Royal Mint historical document which specifies that no silver should be used in its gold coins.

Entirely agree about the newer sovereigns. I bought two of the 2020 ones and do not like the rosy hue. But I am a bit puzzled by the 'about 2000' date for the start of this unwholesome practice. I had understood that it goes back to the very first Elizabeth II sovereigns. I am looking at one from 1980 and can't make out from the photo whether the alloy is  100% copper or not. Would I be safe in buying it and finding on inspection that it is not like the 2020 ones that I hold, which is what I would like to be the case. Or is it really a 'copper' one that has been well disguised in the photo? Many thanks for expert guidance on this question.

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