The future of silver, VAT and import charges into the UK now a Deal has been done!?

[TutoredSoup232]

Just now, silversky said:

£33

I'm not sure what the fee will be to be honest.  Previously the courier would charge the fee on small value items because unless customs wanted to open them they would make the assessment themselves based on the paperwork and collect the money.  Royal mail traditionally charged £8 for this on top of the duty/vat etc.  But above £135 I don't know if they are still charging just the £8 or how it's worked out.  Fedex charges a little more from memory but they deliver it straight away with their bill attached.  You then pay online rather than having to wait a week for the post office to notify you that it's arrived and go in person to make payment.

thanks! I'll check DHL's fees 

[silversky]

Gold is zero vat rated.  The customs declaration from a dealer should contain the correct standardised numeric code to indicate what it is and that it is zero vat.  They should not charge you vat but if they do you can object and claim it back from HMRC.  The handling charge would probably be a bit more tiresome to claim back but ultimately they should read the code and do the job they're supposed to do correctly and waive it through rather than generate a bill.  In such a case they really have no moral argument for charging a handling fee, but who knows.

[TutoredSoup232]

thanks again! well it's looking so far like it might still be cheaper for me to order from certain sites and certain things from Europe even with the VAT and shipping/handling charges 

[silversky]

19 minutes ago, TutoredSoup232 said:

thanks again! well it's looking so far like it might still be cheaper for me to order from certain sites and certain things from Europe even with the VAT and shipping/handling charges 

Let us know how it goes please

[TutoredSoup232]

1 minute ago, silversky said:

Let us know how it goes please

spoke too soon, I have tried to find out what UPS  delivery charges will be for handling items through customs. Appears they're engaging in some shady practices of charging 25% of the items values for non-vat gold coins 

[sixgun]

UPS has gone to rat sh it. Up to Brexit it was great - i would say at times it was fantastic.
My brother sent some stuff to me in Spain - i have been waiting almost 2 months. i have sent them passport and NIE (Spanish financial ID) more than once - content list, value, power of attorney several times......

The tracking shows one of the parcels is in Louisville, KY, United States

[NomadicBacon]

On 18/03/2021 at 15:36, NomadicBacon said:

Dear all, first time poster, but I have been lurking around for a while.

In the life before Brexit, life was simple. You paid VAT at the going rate anywhere in the EU, and then brought the goods back in, possibly using the two stage delivery method if ordering from Estonia, or if you had them in person, no issues. Gold of course is VAT free everywhere and remains VAT free, but silver and platinum, have always had VAT added on, but this is where it gets interesting. I remember being offered some "second hand" britannias in London for the first time and saying "Why are they 10% more than the brand new ones?" and then discovering that they were VAT free, so for me, they were 10% cheaper. As my knowledge grew about the use of marginal schemes, I discovered that various countries had some very compelling marginal VAT schemes for second hand bullion, and I had much joy with goldsilver in Belgium (although note that some buyers had issues).

So I am the sort of person who believes "Tax Avoidance is fine, Tax Evasion is illegal, so don't do it" and I was looking to clarify how everything actually works post brexit with respect to importing. It's slightly more fun as my brother lives in Germany, so can collect and hold goods for me, but both of us have jobs where it would be very bad if we were found to be breaking the law, and we wouldn't want to either. The question is, just what is the law now? And this is where I have got to in getting to chapter and verse from HMRC ... and how they are avoiding answering my direct questions.

I have spent many hours on the phone to HMRC and written many versions of the email below. To date, I have not got a straight answer. The email below is one such example and that response took 6 weeks.

So here is the problem: Before Brexit, I could visit my brother in Germany, we would go to coin fairs and buy some interesting collectible coins in Silver and Platinum (Gold is not worth mentioning - it's VAT free - end of story). So the first place you need to go is to HMRC and discover the classification code for these items. Precious metal coins are covered by code 7118900000. There is no duty to pay, but it gets slightly interesting in that this states that the VAT rate is either 0% or 20%. Hmmm .... one of those I like, and one of those I don't.

So your next stage is to work out which rate applies and when and the advice page for the commodity is here https://www.trade-tariff.service.gov.uk/commodities/7118900000?country=FR&currency=EUR

That isn't much use, but it refers you to additional guidance here: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/rates-of-vat-on-different-goods-and-services#introduction

And there is no killer paragraph in it which says "UK silver/platinum bullion coins that are legal tender are subject to VAT at the rate of 0% or 20%"

However, the most relevant notice is probably https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/vat-notice-70149-finance/vat-notice-70149-finance which sits alongside the exceptional note on Gold Coins - so by inference (which is dangerous); Gold Coins are the exception and so Silver and Platinum coins would be covered by the rule.

In this impenetrable tome, section 2 reads “References to money in this notice include currency, bank notes and coins, in sterling or any other currency used as legal tender in a financial transaction, but not, with effect from 1 July 2006, platinum nobles.”

Now, this is really interesting because it explicitly excludes the Isle of Man's platinum noble, which then by inference would include a platinum/silver britannia . No further mention is made as to why the noble is excluded, but it's probably because in the IoM they were doing good business selling said coins VAT free and us main landers were splitting the difference with the local mint (who chipped into the IoM treasury for their rights to do this business and HMRC to exception). In section 2.6, it refers to a business buying and selling and the marginal scheme. However I am not a business, and do not actively buy or sell aside from collecting and so this does not apply. 

If they are classed as cash as section 2 implies, then I would not even have to declare them, but then some coins do have VAT on them. But if I as a buyer have paid VAT, either at 20% in most of Europe and the UK for new items, or at effectively 0% under the marginal scheme, would I be asked to pay again at the border, and if I purchased the item in the UK under the marginal scheme rules, in effect it is still VAT free even today (follow Chard's second hand bullion for the odd gem cropping up - and plenty of overpriced nonsense)

So I phoned HMRC and literally got passed around for 3 hours before they cut me off. It was interesting, I could not get a straight answer. Then I used the various email routes that are supposed to respond within 14 days, and in reality take 6-12 weeks. They also fobbed me off with a specific clear answer.

My question is: What happens if I buy new or second-hand silver and platinum coins in the EU and bring them back to the UK? 

• Worst case: Buy a coin for £1,000 in Germany new, pay 20%, net outgoings, £1,200. Arrive at UK customs … “Ello ello, that’s a fine coin, I must add 20% VAT to it.”. I have now spent £1440 in total on something that would have cost me £1,200 in the UK. Clearly a poor proposition, especially if there is a fine for not declaring this – and the rules for this are also vague.
• Bad case: I could reclaim the 0% VAT paid on say a margin scheme in Belgium, but my revenue officer in Calais says "Hmm, nice coins, 20% VAT please"
• Best case: Buy a second hand coin in Belgium for £1,000 under the marginal scheme, I arrive at UK customs … “Ello ello, that’s a fine proof UK legal tender coin, no need to VAT, so on your way, and by the way, as it's legal tender and cash - you didn't even have to declare it to me.”

Once COVID is done, I will drive to Berlin, and visit my brother. On the way back, I want to stop in Belgium and pick up in effect VAT free UK CGT exempt second hand platinum coins (and 2 bottles of wine and a bottle of JD). HMRC are however unable to tell me if I even need to make a declaration at the border (as if it is cash, I do not); and how to decide whether the 0% rate or 20% rate in their own guidance will apply.

To be honest, HMRC have very complex rules and you can’t be intuitive and hope. For example, I love that VAT on prawn crackers made from tapioca is applied at a 0% rate, and yet when they are made from potato starch, they are 20% rated. Unless of course you serve your prawn crackers hot, and in which case, they attract 20% regardless of whether they are tapioca or potato derived, but if you buy them fresh and hot, and they then are likely to go cold before eating at home or at another place, they are rated at 0%. With rules like that, how can anyone make sense of the impenetrable silver and platinum VAT guidance for people who are not in business (the business rules are actually quite clear).

So, I have a) written to HMRC's complaints department as they have not answered a very specific question and in effect referred me back to the generic advice that is ambiguous; and b) escalated to my MP, who I know quite well ... and wait for an answer.

I am not a betting man, but I think that HMRC's guidance as it stands will lead to a similar situation that applied when buying tobacco and wine pre-Brexit. Here, if you buy it at arms length and send it via a courier or use an agent then you get into a lot of trouble. However as second hand silver and platinum in both the UK and EU is covered by VAT under a marginal scheme where this is only on the profit, and the amount paid is hidden from you as a consumer, you are unable to make an reclaim of that from the EU, and if HMRC were to tax you, it should be on that basis - and I predict that "If I drive to Belgium, buy some silver/platinum, then bring it back myself, I don't have to declare it (HMRC cash rule); there is no VAT due (HMRC 0% rate applied on second hand item or marginal scheme applies) and finally, I will have to "not sell or distribute said coins to other people for a period of 12 months" as this is what happens when you are an expat and return to the UK with a bunch of second hand items you've acquired during your time overseas (Form TOR01) and relocate to the UK.

I think the answer is already in all of the HMRC guidance notes, but you have to use the exceptions to validate the rules, and the thought of banter with a customs office at 3AM with my wife and children in the car on the finer points of what is money, legal tender, commodity bullion and so on fills me with dread, and I am not the kind of person to be found on the wrong side of the law and smuggling.

Who wants me to post my answer when I get it? (I've been at this now for 12 weeks and I think I know how to eventually burst this bubble for once and for all - but if you read stuff on bulletin boards like this, I just see it as ideas for testing with the competent authorities as it is your reputation that is on the line, not this boards)

Only the Names and References have been modified. HMRC continue to avoid answering the simple question.

I have noted this article https://www.numismaticnews.net/world-coins/brexit-impacts-coins which implies HMRC don't actually know. Also, here we see confusion on the subject of Gold coins, which should be even more simple: https://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/experts/article-9422407/UPS-refused-deliver-gold-coin-Belgium-unless-paid-368-taxes.html

My core gripe I have been asking HMRC to clarify is that the code they told me applied to bullion platinum and silver coins (not necessarily collectible coins) has two rates, 0% and 20%. The question is, under which circumstances will the 0% rate apply, and which cases will the 20% rate apply.

In this response, they have introduced a new rate of 5%, with no reference as to why the 0% or 20% rate no longer applies. Presumably some civil servant has mixed up bullion coins, which should be a commodity by definition, although we do like to collect them, with collectible coins. 

It's almost as if they are engaging in some kind of organized crime to entrap citizens who simply want to understand what the correct taxes are, and then pay them correctly, presumably only so HMRC they can extort larger sums down the line and make innocent people criminals and in so doing, justify their own existence and boost the size of the state. Nothing else makes rational sense. I am just trying to do the right thing.

Nomadic Bacon.

________________________________________________________

12 April 2021 HMRC responded

Our Reference: 2788XXXX
 
Dear Mr Nomadic Bacon
 
Subject Imports
 
Thank you for your enquiry of 09 March 2021 regarding importing items into the UK.
 
I apologise for the delay in replying and any inconvenience this may have caused. 
 
Please be aware that the VAT Written Enquiries Team do not provide a written confirmation service. However, I will refer you to guidance which is relevant to your enquiry. 
 
The VAT liability will depend on whether it meets the criteria for 5% as per Notice 718. Please refer to this to check whether your item meets the reduced rate of VAT;
 
https://www.gov.uk/guidance/the-margin-and-global-accounting-scheme-vat-notice-718
 
With regards to importing the items, I have included a step by step guide below which should be of assistance;
 
https://www.gov.uk/import-goods-into-uk
 
If you have any further questions about importing, please contact the Customs and International Trade helpline using the link below;
 
https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/hm-revenue-customs/contact/customs-international-trade-and-excise-enquiries
 
If you have any further queries regarding this matter, please submit your enquiry via our website, ensuring that you quote the case reference number at the top of this reply. Enquiries can be submitted by visiting the www.gov.uk website and searching for 'contact hmrc' in the search facility provided.
 
Yours sincerely
VAT Written Enquiries Officer

___________________________________________

On Tue, 9 Mar 2021, Nomadic Bacon Responded

No this reply does not help.  This is about the vat treatment and the ambiguity in the guidance.  There are two rates.  If I buy platinum or silver in the EU and bring it back to the UK, will I have to pay VAT? The guidance is "there are two rates" but does not provide an answer as to when each applies.  If I buy second hand in the UK, then it is covered by the marginal scheme,  which is effectively Vat free to a mortal like myself.  If I buy second hand in Europe under a marginal scheme,  will I be asked to pay duty or vat at the border? If I pay vat on new silver or platinum,  will I then have to pay it again? In effect making it 44% 20% on top of 20%)? The clarification code has two rates.  How do I get a list of the rules to comply with 0% as 20% or even 44% are not viable.  Also,  i want a written answer from yourselves to show the customs officer the hmrc interpretation as this is complex as your team cannot easily answer it.  

__________________________________________________________________________
On Tue, 9 Mar 2021, HMRC E-Mail Admin, <kcmt.admin@hmrc.gov.uk> wrote: 
Dear Sir or Madam
 
Thank you for your email
 
Please see the following link that may help you with your query -
 
https://www.gov.uk/goods-sent-from-abroad
 
Yours faithfully,
 
HM Revenue & Customs
Customs, International Trade & Excise
Website: www.hmrc.gov.uk/contactus

___________________________________________

25th Jan 2021

Dear HMRC, I wish to know how to correctly make the required payments and declarations so I can import UK Legal Tender Silver and Platinum Investment Coins from the EU into the UK. I am a private individual - there is no company or VAT registration. I collect interesting silver and platinum coins. I don't trade in these, perhaps swapping or selling unwanted coins to collectors or dealers. HMRC advised the code is 7118900000. This code has two rates, 0% and 20%. I need help in understanding which rate would be applied to my future purchases. Before Brexit I'd visit UK and EU coin fairs and dealers. I would buy second hand UK Legal Tender collectible & bullion investment coins. Being second hand, they were covered by a special margin scheme, effectively making them VAT free. Previous purchases have ranged from approx £1,000 to £10,000 per annum. I would usually bring them back in my car via the Eurotunnel. If I were to make similar purchases in the future, what do I need to declare and what VAT rate would be applied. The dealer Chards covered the UK's pre-Brexit rules nicely in this article: https://www.chards.co.uk/blog/special-scheme-gold-and-silver/259 but want to understand how I can do this in the future in the EU and what VAT rate will be applied when I cross the border and what forms to fill in and which channel to use? My supplementary questions are: 1) My brother is a German national. Hypothetically, if he were to collect coins on my account and bring them to the UK when he visits (this saves much admin and postage), is the process any different? 2) If my brother were to post a package of collected coins to me from Germany, would this cause any complications (versus delivery in person)? Yours sincerely, Nomadic Bacon. 

Edited April 16, 2021 by NomadicBacon
Missing context clarity

[Neilcollier]

On 31/03/2021 at 05:13, ZigZag said:

IF you really want to, it already exists; just happened to notice it posted elsewhere online.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/575122

I signed it 👍

[GoldStandardPartyUK]

20 hours ago, Neilcollier said:

I signed it 👍

Me too 

[MNXMAN]

#metoo    

 

🙂

[HillWalkerDundee]

I popped my moniker on it too. At 342 signatures, i think it will be a little while before it is debated.

[kena]

Earlier today, both myself and my wife signed it.

[BackyardBullion]

So, here's a few little updates to demonstrate how ridiculous it is to post items to Europe now.

Germany

German customer had to trek over 1.5 hours to customs house and wait for 2 hours to pay his €20 vat import and open the package with a customs agent in person....

Needless to say this customer politely has told me he won't be buying anything from the UK again

Ireland

Customs have returned an item to sender because customs documents are not in order, despite them being identical in every way to other packages that have gone through just fine earlier this year.

"Free trade"

Brexit sucks big time and is making it next to impossible to sell anything outside of the UK. 

I hate it, the world should not end at the UK border, it's the 21st century.

[Rll1288]

1 hour ago, BackyardBullion said:

So, here's a few little updates to demonstrate how ridiculous it is to post items to Europe now.

Germany

German customer had to trek over 1.5 hours to customs house and wait for 2 hours to pay his €20 vat import and open the package with a customs agent in person....

Needless to say this customer politely has told me he won't be buying anything from the UK again

Ireland

Customs have returned an item to sender because customs documents are not in order, despite them being identical in every way to other packages that have gone through just fine earlier this year.

"Free trade"

Brexit sucks big time and is making it next to impossible to sell anything outside of the UK. 

I hate it, the world should not end at the UK border, it's the 21st century.

But we have gained control of our own destiny....... 🤣

[Dan12345]

3 hours ago, Rll1288 said:

But we have gained control of our own destiny....... 🤣

The 1500 immigrants that came over on boats last week will disagree lol

[silversky]

8 hours ago, BackyardBullion said:

So, here's a few little updates to demonstrate how ridiculous it is to post items to Europe now.

Germany

German customer had to trek over 1.5 hours to customs house and wait for 2 hours to pay his €20 vat import and open the package with a customs agent in person....

Needless to say this customer politely has told me he won't be buying anything from the UK again

Ireland

Customs have returned an item to sender because customs documents are not in order, despite them being identical in every way to other packages that have gone through just fine earlier this year.

"Free trade"

Brexit sucks big time and is making it next to impossible to sell anything outside of the UK. 

I hate it, the world should not end at the UK border, it's the 21st century.

Level 2?  None of the Tories are Brexiteers.  They never have been.  There were a few self interested types but none were real brexiteers.  They all take their orders in clubs and meetings with the Davos/WEF crowd.  They never expected the electorate to actually vote to leave.  They're now deliberately gently sabotaging the British position, with the intention of irritating the electorate enough, to one day vote to be subsumed back into the EU.

It's a terrible thing that they're doing, but there's no other explanation for the abortion of a job done with customs (and immigration) on the border.  It's truly the most appalling deal which disadvantages the UK with the ENTIRE world now. They made our small sales customs position worse with the USA and the rest of the world, which they most certainly did not have to touch at all.  lt's part of a non deal which hits VAT onto all sales and requires the seller to open accounts with the international customer's tax authority.  It's the twisted dream of red-tape pen-pushers.  Only a real leave government could resolve these issues, but there won't be one sadly.  Globalist powers have breached the UK institutions already, and no amount of plebeian calls for self determination are going to change that.

The only political option that we're all being herded towards, is a call to re join the unaccountable totalitarian block.  Such a choice would be the final nail in our coffin.

[HerefordBullyun]

6 hours ago, silversky said:

Level 2?  None of the Tories are Brexiteers.  They never have been.  There were a few self interested types but none were real brexiteers.  They all take their orders in clubs and meetings with the Davos/WEF crowd.  They never expected the electorate to actually vote to leave.  They're now deliberately gently sabotaging the British position, with the intention of irritating the electorate enough, to one day vote to be subsumed back into the EU.

It's a terrible thing that they're doing, but there's no other explanation for the abortion of a job done with customs (and immigration) on the border.  It's truly the most appalling deal which disadvantages the UK with the ENTIRE world now. They made our small sales customs position worse with the USA and the rest of the world, which they most certainly did not have to touch at all.  lt's part of a non deal which hits VAT onto all sales and requires the seller to open accounts with the international customer's tax authority.  It's the twisted dream of red-tape pen-pushers.  Only a real leave government could resolve these issues, but there won't be one sadly.  Globalist powers have breached the UK institutions already, and no amount of plebeian calls for self determination are going to change that.

The only political option that we're all being herded towards, is a call to re join the unaccountable totalitarian block.  Such a choice would be the final nail in our coffin.

Not to turn this into a politics thread. But i have to agree with everything youve said. There hasnt been one decent prime minister in my lifetime and I am nearly 50!

And if people think its goin to get better they are sadly deluded.

I only ever voted once in my life and it was the biggest mistake in my life! I shall never do it again. All clowns  different circus!

[Roy]

44 minutes ago, HerefordBullyun said:

There hasn't been one decent prime minister in my lifetime and I am nearly 50!

1979-1990?

🤔

[HerefordBullyun]

22 minutes ago, Roy said:

1979-1990?

🤔

Nope not even her!

[Groundup]

2 hours ago, Roy said:

1979-1990?

🤔

AHH...The enemy within.

This could apply to most of the PM community nowadays.

[HillWalkerDundee]

On 28/08/2021 at 20:42, HawkHybrid said:

 

1979-1990

May she be rotting in Hell.