The future of silver, VAT and import charges into the UK now a Deal has been done!?

[silversky]

1 hour ago, juansanto7 said:

We voted to come out of the EU, and as as we are no longer part of the EU, we have to pay VAT (and handling fees to the courier, RM) for goods imported from the EU to HMRC. And yes, we voted for this. It comes with the territory. Otherwise if we would have still been part of the EU, this thread would simply not exist.

You misunderstand me.   Of course we voted to come out of the EU and of course now that we're out of the EU we must apply UK tax rules to imports from abroad.

But what we did NOT vote for is the NEW tax rules which were introduced on Brexit day which include a change where foreign business must now register with and effectively act as an agent of HMRC, collecting tax on their behalf for any exports to the UK of BELOW £135 in value.

Small sales come from small businesses and it's clearly an incredibly onerous system to place the burden of UK tax collection onto the shoulders of small foreign businesses at point of sale.  Only a bureaucrat or someone deliberately trying to reduce small value sales imports could think this is a sensible idea (Hmmm, I wonder who might have insisted on this as part of the Brexit deal?).  Why should small businesses have to fill in this type of paperwork for a small sale to the UK when a large sale (above £135) will just be posted and assessed on arrival as per the standard international rules?  It's total madness and it affects all small sales from all across the world and has nothing to do with silver specifically.

[Stacktastic]

I bought some printing from poland last week. They wanted my number thing from the HMRC, fine. 

Then the courier required a VAT number as I am business!
I am not VAT registered as I deal with private clients & dont buy goods. 
Flipping ridiculous really as so many people are also in the same boat. 

The printer changed it to personal in the end after suggesting I borrow a VAT number from a friend.
I dont know anyone, and surely thats fraud isnt it? 

[silversky]

2 minutes ago, Stacktastic said:

I bought some printing from poland last week. They wanted my number thing from the HMRC, fine. 

Then the courier required a VAT number as I am business!
I am not VAT registered as I deal with private clients & dont buy goods. 
Flipping ridiculous really as so many people are also in the same boat. 

The printer changed it to personal in the end after suggesting I borrow a VAT number from a friend.
I dont know anyone, and surely thats fraud isnt it? 

Sounds grim! 

It's going to get worse when the EU finally get round to implementing this on their side as well (they still haven't found the time to sign off the Brexit deal yet!!!).  I forget when it's due in the EU but I think I heard that it'll be later this year or early next.  It's a protection racket ultimately.  It's designed to raise the bar on small foreign businesses doing business inside the common market, without it actually being a tariff which would draw condemnation.  It's better described as a trade deterrent instead which of course flies under the radar whilst achieving a similar outcome.  Possibly it will achieve more internal spending inside the EU bloc as a whole, but the UK is much smaller and as such its wholly unsuitable for the UK to be actively deterring small foreign imports through red tape.  I strongly suspect that the agreement over this regulatory alignment with the EU (not even present ffs!!!) is more about doing damage to the UK than protecting themselves.  A bit of both possibly.  

In my opinion this government has has failed us miserably.  It has been the worst in my lifetime.

[Stacktastic]

19 minutes ago, silversky said:

Sounds grim! 

It's going to get worse when the EU finally get round to implementing this on their side as well (they still haven't found the time to sign off the Brexit deal yet!!!).  I forget when it's due in the EU but I think I heard that it'll be later this year or early next.  It's a protection racket ultimately.  It's designed to raise the bar on small foreign businesses doing business inside the common market, without it actually being a tariff which would draw condemnation.  It's better described as a trade deterrent instead which of course flies under the radar whilst achieving a similar outcome.  Possibly it will achieve more internal spending inside the EU bloc as a whole, but the UK is much smaller and as such its wholly unsuitable for the UK to be actively deterring small foreign imports through red tape.  I strongly suspect that the agreement over this regulatory alignment with the EU (not even present ffs!!!) is more about doing damage to the UK than protecting themselves.  A bit of both possibly.  

In my opinion this government has has failed us miserably.  It has been the worst in my lifetime.

Im lucky as I can send stuff to Poland (mother in laws) and then have it brought by a man with a van in a suit case for £20.
we do it quite a bit with just clothes and stuff like that, so thats one way to get around it. Might try it with a tube of Brits LOL. 

[juansanto7]

On 12/01/2021 at 11:14, savoyard said:

TL/TR: yes, the party is over.

The party is not over yet. Wait for the afterparty. Buy a second home in the EU and buy your silver and post it there. Go and spend your holidays there and when you travel back to the UK you bring your silver with you.

Edited March 13, 2021 by juansanto7

[silversky]

34 minutes ago, juansanto7 said:

The party is not over yet. Wait for the afterparty. Buy a second home in the EU and buy your silver and post it there. Go and spend your holidays there and when you travel back to the UK you bring your silver with you.

I would not advise that.  Arriving at a port of entry as a traveller allows you an allowance of only £390 total value for your accompanied personal possessions free of duty or VAT. 

If you plan on moving home internationally, this will also not allow you to declare bullion as a household possession (such as furniture, tv's, fridges etc.) to avoid paying tax on it.  It will not be classed as a monetary instrument that you can declare either.  It will be classed as commercial goods and taxed.  If you are searched and found with commercial goods you will be charged as a smuggler.

The only solution is for the UK government to abolish unreasonable VAT on legal tender.  Unfortunately, now that the government is short of cash from all this recent spending, there is next to no chance of it.

If you've gone to the trouble of purchasing property in the EU, then it would be better to keep your physical silver there.  Period.

[NomadicBacon]

Dear all, first time poster, but I have been lurking around for a while.

In the life before Brexit, life was simple. You paid VAT at the going rate anywhere in the EU, and then brought the goods back in, possibly using the two stage delivery method if ordering from Estonia, or if you had them in person, no issues. Gold of course is VAT free everywhere and remains VAT free, but silver and platinum, have always had VAT added on, but this is where it gets interesting. I remember being offered some "second hand" britannias in London for the first time and saying "Why are they 10% more than the brand new ones?" and then discovering that they were VAT free, so for me, they were 10% cheaper. As my knowledge grew about the use of marginal schemes, I discovered that various countries had some very compelling marginal VAT schemes for second hand bullion, and I had much joy with goldsilver in Belgium (although note that some buyers had issues).

So I am the sort of person who believes "Tax Avoidance is fine, Tax Evasion is illegal, so don't do it" and I was looking to clarify how everything actually works post brexit with respect to importing. It's slightly more fun as my brother lives in Germany, so can collect and hold goods for me, but both of us have jobs where it would be very bad if we were found to be breaking the law, and we wouldn't want to either. The question is, just what is the law now? And this is where I have got to in getting to chapter and verse from HMRC ... and how they are avoiding answering my direct questions.

I have spent many hours on the phone to HMRC and written many versions of the email below. To date, I have not got a straight answer. The email below is one such example and that response took 6 weeks.

So here is the problem: Before Brexit, I could visit my brother in Germany, we would go to coin fairs and buy some interesting collectible coins in Silver and Platinum (Gold is not worth mentioning - it's VAT free - end of story). So the first place you need to go is to HMRC and discover the classification code for these items. Precious metal coins are covered by code 7118900000. There is no duty to pay, but it gets slightly interesting in that this states that the VAT rate is either 0% or 20%. Hmmm .... one of those I like, and one of those I don't.

So your next stage is to work out which rate applies and when and the advice page for the commodity is here https://www.trade-tariff.service.gov.uk/commodities/7118900000?country=FR&currency=EUR

That isn't much use, but it refers you to additional guidance here: https://www.gov.uk/guidance/rates-of-vat-on-different-goods-and-services#introduction

And there is no killer paragraph in it which says "UK silver/platinum bullion coins that are legal tender are subject to VAT at the rate of 0% or 20%"

However, the most relevant notice is probably https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/vat-notice-70149-finance/vat-notice-70149-finance which sits alongside the exceptional note on Gold Coins - so by inference (which is dangerous); Gold Coins are the exception and so Silver and Platinum coins would be covered by the rule.

In this impenetrable tome, section 2 reads “References to money in this notice include currency, bank notes and coins, in sterling or any other currency used as legal tender in a financial transaction, but not, with effect from 1 July 2006, platinum nobles.”

Now, this is really interesting because it explicitly excludes the Isle of Man's platinum noble, which then by inference would include a platinum/silver britannia . No further mention is made as to why the noble is excluded, but it's probably because in the IoM they were doing good business selling said coins VAT free and us main landers were splitting the difference with the local mint (who chipped into the IoM treasury for their rights to do this business and HMRC to exception). In section 2.6, it refers to a business buying and selling and the marginal scheme. However I am not a business, and do not actively buy or sell aside from collecting and so this does not apply. 

If they are classed as cash as section 2 implies, then I would not even have to declare them, but then some coins do have VAT on them. But if I as a buyer have paid VAT, either at 20% in most of Europe and the UK for new items, or at effectively 0% under the marginal scheme, would I be asked to pay again at the border, and if I purchased the item in the UK under the marginal scheme rules, in effect it is still VAT free even today (follow Chard's second hand bullion for the odd gem cropping up - and plenty of overpriced nonsense)

So I phoned HMRC and literally got passed around for 3 hours before they cut me off. It was interesting, I could not get a straight answer. Then I used the various email routes that are supposed to respond within 14 days, and in reality take 6-12 weeks. They also fobbed me off with a specific clear answer.

My question is: What happens if I buy new or second-hand silver and platinum coins in the EU and bring them back to the UK? 

• Worst case: Buy a coin for £1,000 in Germany new, pay 20%, net outgoings, £1,200. Arrive at UK customs … “Ello ello, that’s a fine coin, I must add 20% VAT to it.”. I have now spent £1440 in total on something that would have cost me £1,200 in the UK. Clearly a poor proposition, especially if there is a fine for not declaring this – and the rules for this are also vague.
• Bad case: I could reclaim the 0% VAT paid on say a margin scheme in Belgium, but my revenue officer in Calais says "Hmm, nice coins, 20% VAT please"
• Best case: Buy a second hand coin in Belgium for £1,000 under the marginal scheme, I arrive at UK customs … “Ello ello, that’s a fine proof UK legal tender coin, no need to VAT, so on your way, and by the way, as it's legal tender and cash - you didn't even have to declare it to me.”

Once COVID is done, I will drive to Berlin, and visit my brother. On the way back, I want to stop in Belgium and pick up in effect VAT free UK CGT exempt second hand platinum coins (and 2 bottles of wine and a bottle of JD). HMRC are however unable to tell me if I even need to make a declaration at the border (as if it is cash, I do not); and how to decide whether the 0% rate or 20% rate in their own guidance will apply.

To be honest, HMRC have very complex rules and you can’t be intuitive and hope. For example, I love that VAT on prawn crackers made from tapioca is applied at a 0% rate, and yet when they are made from potato starch, they are 20% rated. Unless of course you serve your prawn crackers hot, and in which case, they attract 20% regardless of whether they are tapioca or potato derived, but if you buy them fresh and hot, and they then are likely to go cold before eating at home or at another place, they are rated at 0%. With rules like that, how can anyone make sense of the impenetrable silver and platinum VAT guidance for people who are not in business (the business rules are actually quite clear).

So, I have a) written to HMRC's complaints department as they have not answered a very specific question and in effect referred me back to the generic advice that is ambiguous; and b) escalated to my MP, who I know quite well ... and wait for an answer.

I am not a betting man, but I think that HMRC's guidance as it stands will lead to a similar situation that applied when buying tobacco and wine pre-Brexit. Here, if you buy it at arms length and send it via a courier or use an agent then you get into a lot of trouble. However as second hand silver and platinum in both the UK and EU is covered by VAT under a marginal scheme where this is only on the profit, and the amount paid is hidden from you as a consumer, you are unable to make an reclaim of that from the EU, and if HMRC were to tax you, it should be on that basis - and I predict that "If I drive to Belgium, buy some silver/platinum, then bring it back myself, I don't have to declare it (HMRC cash rule); there is no VAT due (HMRC 0% rate applied on second hand item or marginal scheme applies) and finally, I will have to "not sell or distribute said coins to other people for a period of 12 months" as this is what happens when you are an expat and return to the UK with a bunch of second hand items you've acquired during your time overseas (Form TOR01) and relocate to the UK.

I think the answer is already in all of the HMRC guidance notes, but you have to use the exceptions to validate the rules, and the thought of banter with a customs office at 3AM with my wife and children in the car on the finer points of what is money, legal tender, commodity bullion and so on fills me with dread, and I am not the kind of person to be found on the wrong side of the law and smuggling.

Who wants me to post my answer when I get it? (I've been at this now for 12 weeks and I think I know how to eventually burst this bubble for once and for all - but if you read stuff on bulletin boards like this, I just see it as ideas for testing with the competent authorities as it is your reputation that is on the line, not this boards)

[TringSilver]

@NomadicBacon

Interesting read, thanks for this. 

The best thing I found on my trawls, although from 2013 and more in regards to parcels was the below email to someone:

 

 

complaintsteamwales@hmce.gsi.gov.uk

Sent: 17 May 2013 13:53:21

To: (name removed)@hotmail.co.uk

Dear Mr (name removed)

To clarify my earlier e-mail regarding the VAT applicable on the import

of coins from the Channel Islands or from outside the EU.

Coins which are of numismatic interest are classed as collectors' items.

Such items are classified within the harmonised system with commodity

code 9705 00 00 00.

The effective VAT applicable to these coins at import is 5%.

I would class coins as of numismatic interest where they are traded at a

value greater than the face-value as legal tender with the price

dependant on factors such as condition and year of manufacture amongst

others things.

Coins such the Britannia Silver Coin, Canadian Silver Maple Leaf and US

Silver Eagle Coin recently imported by you are collectors' pieces and as

such VAT at import would be 5%

Apologies if this information was unclear in my earlier email

Regards

[GoldStandardPartyUK]

23 hours ago, NomadicBacon said:

 Who wants me to post my answer when I get it? 

Yes please. 

[NomadicBacon]

On 18/03/2021 at 17:14, TringSilver said:

@NomadicBacon

Interesting read, thanks for this. 

The best thing I found on my trawls, although from 2013 and more in regards to parcels was the below email to someone:

 

 

complaintsteamwales@hmce.gsi.gov.uk

Sent: 17 May 2013 13:53:21

To: (name removed)@hotmail.co.uk

Dear Mr (name removed)

To clarify my earlier e-mail regarding the VAT applicable on the import

of coins from the Channel Islands or from outside the EU.

Coins which are of numismatic interest are classed as collectors' items.

Such items are classified within the harmonised system with commodity

code 9705 00 00 00.

The effective VAT applicable to these coins at import is 5%.

I would class coins as of numismatic interest where they are traded at a

value greater than the face-value as legal tender with the price

dependant on factors such as condition and year of manufacture amongst

others things.

Coins such the Britannia Silver Coin, Canadian Silver Maple Leaf and US

Silver Eagle Coin recently imported by you are collectors' pieces and as

such VAT at import would be 5%

Apologies if this information was unclear in my earlier email

Regards

Numisatic interest is a subjective description. The classification 7118900000 was given to me by HMRC following a similar correspondence and also their classification advice service. You can see why: 

It includes:  precious metals, metals and coins - both of which apply. This is a matter of fact. Numismatic interest is also a subjective description and we do not have the full information as to whether these are regular Britannias, or there is some facet such as the strike type, year, rarity that led your pieces to be classed as of numismatic interest. One senses that the HMRC person is looking at say "One of those 50p coins that sells for £40" where the value is driven by the numismatic interest, versus the value provided by the intrinsic value, i.e. a britannia that is worth say 10% above spot is not of numismatic interest, and yet one that is worth 100% above spot may well be.

If true though, you could argue that there are now three possible rates. 0%, 5% and 20% to tease out. I am more comfortable with HMRC when dealing with facts rather than subjective views, as I know that my view is irrelevant, its the view my customs officer is holding in his head at that moment that matters and once formed, no amount of reasoning will shift it.

Oddly, another oddity cropped up this week. I am in Saudi at the moment, and they have a coin called the Saudi Guinea that is identical in specification to the British Sovereign. I was going to pick up a few, and then I discovered that in the last couple of years, they've not only introduced VAT, here but gone from 5% to 15% and it applies to gold.  I won't be rushing to buy those. If only I could visit Dubai.

Edited March 21, 2021 by NomadicBacon

[NomadicBacon]

On 13/03/2021 at 18:08, silversky said:

I would not advise that.  Arriving at a port of entry as a traveller allows you an allowance of only £390 total value for your accompanied personal possessions free of duty or VAT. 

If you plan on moving home internationally, this will also not allow you to declare bullion as a household possession (such as furniture, tv's, fridges etc.) to avoid paying tax on it.  It will not be classed as a monetary instrument that you can declare either.  It will be classed as commercial goods and taxed.  If you are searched and found with commercial goods you will be charged as a smuggler.

The only solution is for the UK government to abolish unreasonable VAT on legal tender.  Unfortunately, now that the government is short of cash from all this recent spending, there is next to no chance of it.

If you've gone to the trouble of purchasing property in the EU, then it would be better to keep your physical silver there.  Period.

If you move your residence from one country to another, you are not subject to VAT on your personal effects. The method of moving your goods requires completion of the TOR01 HMRC form, which includes very light reporting too. The main restrictions are "You must pay VAT on new goods, or goods that are less than 6 months old, and pledge not to sell them for 12 months". Point being, depending on how long you've been abroad and why, there are some ways to move it to the UK.  The rules regarding residence are set out in the HMRC Statutory Residence Tests (SRT).  Maybe a year in provence could prove profitable.

[ZigZag]

On 09/01/2021 at 08:46, Connor said:

I know there are a few big hitters on here. Lawrence chard, baird mint, etc. Between them and the silver forum, is it out of scope to start petitioning government on this? I'm sure if each respective website (here, atkinsons, chard's, BYB etc) all had a link to sign a petition it would get some movement? Or is this a bit of a whacky idea?

IF you really want to, it already exists; just happened to notice it posted elsewhere online.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/575122

[TommyTwoShots]

On 31/03/2021 at 05:13, ZigZag said:

IF you really want to, it already exists; just happened to notice it posted elsewhere online.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/575122

Only 85 people in the UK care about silver! Amazing 

[ZigZag]

2 hours ago, TommyTwoShots said:

Only 85 people in the UK care about silver! Amazing 

Or look at it another way, do YOU want to sign a petition telling government agencies by your confirmed NAME and email address about YOUR “interest” in Silver 😉

Which is why I put in bold IF! My names not on that list, just thought I’d highlight that a petition already exists. To be fair, the day I put it up on TSF it was around 68, so I consider that doing my bit 😂

[Stacktastic]

Exactly - looking at what has been happening this year, especially with the freedom of speech & out in the open control of a lot of tech companies (FB and YT especially), keeping a low profile is a very savvy thing going forward (not to mention protecting online movements). Signing a petition is like doing a naked truffle shuffle on top of the WW2 trenches midday - "hey government I think this stick me on that list for the rest of my life". Im even not really wanting to do this census thing, but I feel I would attract more attention if I dont (I had a girl at my door telling me I am breaking the law today). 

Edited April 1, 2021 by Stacktastic

[Derv]

11 minutes ago, Stacktastic said:

Exactly - looking at what has been happening this year, especially with the freedom of speech & out in the open control of a lot of tech companies (FB and YT especially), keeping a low profile is a very savvy thing going forward (not to mention protecting online movements). Signing a petition is like doing a naked truffle shuffle on top of the WW2 trenches midday - "hey government I think this stick me on that list for the rest of my life". Im even not really wanting to do this census thing, but I feel I would attract more attention if I dont (I had a girl at my door telling me I am breaking the law today). 

Which law , civil or criminal !?   😉

[TommyTwoShots]

22 minutes ago, ZigZag said:

Or look at it another way, do YOU want to sign a petition telling government agencies by your confirmed NAME and email address about YOUR “interest” in Silver 😉

Which is why I put in bold IF! My names not on that list, just thought I’d highlight that a petition already exists. To be fair, the day I put it up on TSF it was around 68, so I consider that doing my bit 😂

What silver? I lost mine in a boating accident last year 😔

[Stacktastic]

1 minute ago, Derv said:

Which law , civil or criminal !?   😉

Dont know really I have not looked into it, but I had a women saying the same thing the last time they did it. 
Im wondering if they will prosecute, especially as they dont know my name? 

Gonna look tomorrow & ignore the chavvy TV licence type people and look at how the data is used mainly. 

[TommyTwoShots]

15 minutes ago, Stacktastic said:

Exactly - looking at what has been happening this year, especially with the freedom of speech & out in the open control of a lot of tech companies (FB and YT especially), keeping a low profile is a very savvy thing going forward (not to mention protecting online movements). Signing a petition is like doing a naked truffle shuffle on top of the WW2 trenches midday - "hey government I think this stick me on that list for the rest of my life". Im even not really wanting to do this census thing, but I feel I would attract more attention if I dont (I had a girl at my door telling me I am breaking the law today). 

Oh I live in a house of non binary Jedi 

[Martlet]

11 minutes ago, Derv said:

Which law , civil or criminal !?   😉

Criminal. 

Just complete the census, its no big deal, the authorities know all about you in a day if you ever become a person of interest.

[TringSilver]

11 minutes ago, Martlet said:

Criminal. 

Just complete the census, its no big deal, the authorities know all about you in a day if you ever become a person of interest.

You'll be saying that smartphones know more about us than the census ever will too next 😁

[Derv]

36 minutes ago, Martlet said:

Criminal. 

Just complete the census, its no big deal, the authorities know all about you in a day if you ever become a person of interest.

A crime not to answer a question , jeezo what next

I can't remember being prosecuted last time. I must check my rap' sheet...

Just now, Derv said:

A crime not to answer a question , jeezo what next

I can't remember being prosecuted last time. I must check my rap' sheets...

 

[Derv]

57 minutes ago, Stacktastic said:

Dont know really I have not looked into it, but I had a women saying the same thing the last time they did it. 
Im wondering if they will prosecute, especially as they dont know my name? 

Gonna look tomorrow & ignore the chavvy TV licence type people and look at how the data is used mainly. 

If you don't want to answer it , don't . I personally don't see it as a crime. What contract do you have with them other than being a citizen , none. No contract - return to sender. 

If I remember correct they were pretty full on the last time around, 10 yrs ago. It wouldn't surprise me if there even worse now in terms of trying to force compliance.  Data is the big ticket after all 

[TutoredSoup232]

Can someone help me understand this please? So if I order silver coins from EU lets say £150 worth and the shipping is £15, will I pay £30 VAT or £33 VAT. Also will there be extra charges from the post office/DHL etc. for handling this for me? 

I've always found HMRC's regs confusing and it's been a long time since I've ordered internationally 

Also if it's gold do I ever pay any charges? 

A

Has anyone actually tried ordering under the new regulations? 

Edited April 2, 2021 by TutoredSoup232

[silversky]

5 minutes ago, TutoredSoup232 said:

Can someone help me understand this please? So if I order silver coins from EU lets say £150 worth and the shipping is £15, will I pay £30 VAT or £33 VAT. Also will there be extra charges from the post office/DHL etc. for handling this for me? 

I've always found HMRC's regs confusing and it's been a long time since I've ordered internationally 

Also if it's gold do I ever pay any charges? 

£33

I'm not sure what the fee will be to be honest.  Previously the courier would charge the fee on small value items because unless customs wanted to open them they would make the assessment themselves based on the paperwork and collect the money.  Royal mail traditionally charged £8 for this on top of the duty/vat etc.  But above £135 I don't know if they are still charging just the £8 or how it's worked out.  Fedex charges a little more from memory but they deliver it straight away with their bill attached.  You then pay online rather than having to wait a week for the post office to notify you that it's arrived and go in person to make payment.