The future of silver, VAT and import charges into the UK now a Deal has been done!?

[BackyardBullion]

If there is a similar thread or the merging of threads needs to be done, mods please just go ahead. 

So, a deal has been done (yet to be approved mind you but we will cross that bridge if/when we need to). 

The deal grants access to the Single Market and free trade. 

It is important to understand that free trade and single market IS NOT the same as the old rules. Border checks will happen much more now when importing to the UK and the golden (well actually SILVER question) is will we be able to buy goods from Europe and import them to the UK and NOT pay VAT. 

My thoughts are it will be a while before we have an answer to this - the following are some of the questions/thoughts I have about things. 

The UK has left the EU but has access to the single market and free trade. This means no Tariffs at the border. Tariffs are NOT the same as VAT. 

When a seller sells something to the UK it could/should/will be treated as a sale outside the scope of VAT. 

But the UK still has (and will have for a while because it is a huge revenue earner) a VAT system. 

VAT systems are designed to keep business in a certain country rather than having other countries undercut their ability to do business. 

When goods enter the UK they are coming from outside the UK so in theory VAT could be applied. You have not already paid VAT because in theory the seller country did not need to charge you VAT in the first place. 

I see all of this as hypothetical based on how the UK's VAT system will link or not link with the EU's system. 

So, just because there is a deal this does not mean VAT free silver still for us. 

Any thoughts/info from anyone more "in the know" would be much appreciated!

[LiX]

Well, I'm in similar boat like you, but mine is traveling in opposite direction. Want to know what happens with goods imported from UK to EU.

Yes, they all talk about tax free trade, but no one mentions anything about VAT. UK will be treated as third party country for EU with the exception of customs tax.

Right now when importing something coming from outside the EU you have to pay VAT if value of the goods is more than 15 EUR and pay customs tax if more than 150 EUR value (that's applicable to EU member state Bulgaria).

I do expect customs tax to be 0, as they are announcing tax free trade, however I do expect VAT to be added to imported goods.

 

[BackyardBullion]

5 minutes ago, LiX said:

Well, I'm in similar boat like you, but mine is traveling in opposite direction. Want to know what happens with goods imported from UK to EU.

Yes, they all talk about tax free trade, but no one mentions anything about VAT. UK will be treated as third party country for EU with the exception of customs tax.

Right now when importing something coming from outside the EU you have to pay VAT if value of the goods is more than 15 EUR and pay customs tax if more than 150 EUR value (that's applicable to EU member state Bulgaria).

I do expect customs tax to be 0, as they are announcing tax free trade, however I do expect VAT to be added to imported goods.

 

Yes, I totally agree and this is my interpretation of how it will go down too. 

[Gildeon]

In theory the seller will decrease the local VAT (if applied) since the goods will be for export. And then VAT will be paid on import (or charged on behalf of the buyer's country from companies like Ebay or Amazon). The problem is when the original seller does not charge VAT normally but this will have to be added when imported to EU (or vice versa).

Whatever happens the trading will not be as seamless as it used to be, let's see if it closer to the past or something like the US...

[SilverHoarder]

Might be slightly off topic but now that we will be free of EU regulations, maybe it's time we lobbied the UK Govt. to remove the absurd VAT element on sales of silver bullion?

[BackyardBullion]

8 minutes ago, SilverHoarder said:

Might be slightly off topic but now that we will be free of EU regulations, maybe it's time we lobbied the UK Govt. to remove the absurd VAT element on sales of silver bullion?

Yeah, I don't see that gaining any public opinion support and traction ☺️😉

[AppleZippoandMetronome]

All any of us can do is speculate at the moment because you are right - it is going to take a while before we actually know.

Some time back in one of the many EU deal/Brexit threads here I wrote that I didn't think they would apply charges at the border because of the anger that would bring to the general public facing those charges. I still think that will pan out at least in the beginning but the world is a much different place now than it was a year or two ago when I shared those thoughts. With the economic fallout from covid the government at some point is going to need to bring in every last bit of tax income it possibly can. If it turns out to be an easy way to generate tax revenue I expect we'll begin seeing such charges at some point

[Martlet]

56 minutes ago, AppleZippoandMetronome said:

All any of us can do is speculate at the moment because you are right - it is going to take a while before we actually know.

Well a week at most.  I've noted there has been nothing mentioned about VAT harmonisation, so i'm assuming there will be none.  I think we've been waiting for the deal to give new information, i'm coming to realisation its not going to and the current guidance was always going to be in place whatever the outcome.  Goods will be sold "ex"VAT and VAT applied on import. The best course of action will be to gently nudge MPs that removing VAT from investment silver would be a good idea.

Edited December 25, 2020 by Martlet

[AppleZippoandMetronome]

1 hour ago, Martlet said:

Well a week at most.  I've noted there has been nothing mentioned about VAT harmonisation, so i'm assuming there will be none.  I think we've been waiting for the deal to give new information, i'm coming to realisation its not going to and the current guidance was always going to be in place whatever the outcome.  Goods will be sold "ex"VAT and VAT applied on import. The best course of action will be to gently nudge MPs that removing VAT from investment silver would be a good idea.

Definitely possible we will find out in a week but I wouldn't put any money on them being ready and having systems in place to start levying the charges right away. I still think it'll take some time.

[Jkm1988]

So is this gonna be like from usa to uk. Where we have to pay vat before we receive the package and the carriers on sh$t charges

[sixgun]

VAT is an EU tax. There was no VAT in the UK before it joined the Common Market. Gold is VAT free b/c of an EU directive. 

The UK is free to do whatever it likes b/c VAT will no longer exist. and we go ought to go back to Purchase Tax. i expect everything will stay much the same as far as rates go, at least for the near future. There are too many things in motion to start fiddling and make the situation even more confusing.

The rates will likely stay the same. Tariffs are not VAT. So tariff free trading with the EU makes no difference. This is VAT/Purchase tax levied at the border. The low VAT and VAT free rates all relied on various dodges applied by dealers in the EU which they managed to get away with. None of this will apply now the UK has actually left the EU. That will mean normal 'VAT' is applied to silver in the UK. So 20% VAT. It will only be some sort of dodge and inventiveness that will enable low VAT silver to be available again. That or a bit of smuggling.

[richatthecroft]

43 minutes ago, sixgun said:

The rates will likely stay the same.

This is a given, as in the scheme of things, bullion Silver rakes in a tiny amount of revenue for the exchequer- I would wager perhaps equaling  an hour or less per year of say, fuel VAT revenue per year.

Pity the government won’t have the removal of VAT on Silver on the agenda anytime soon, as it might help more of the populous save rather than consume s****. 

[sixgun]

Just now, richatthecroft said:

This is a given, as in the scheme of things, bullion Silver rakes in a tiny amount of revenue for the exchequer- I would wager perhaps equaling  an hour or less per year of say, fuel VAT revenue per year.

Pity the government won’t have the removal of VAT on Silver on the agenda anytime soon, as it might help more of the populous save rather than consume s****. 

The potential issue is gold - Gold went VAT free b/c of an EU directive. 

[Coolsmp]

Why is there no VAT to pay on investment gold?

The European Union voted in 1999 to abolish VAT on investment gold. Many countries offered minimal levels of VAT as an incentive to buy in their nation. The UK, which did charge VAT, was losing out because of this, as were other nations. To combat this disparity the EU moved make Europe an equal playing field and scrap VAT on investment gold. This change came into effect on January 1st, 2000.

Gold was VAT free in the UK until 1973, so a return to this state isn't too big a change, but it does occasionally frustrate people due to the fact other precious metal investment bullion isn't exempt.

Source: Bullion by Post

Edited December 25, 2020 by Coolsmp

[richatthecroft]

57 minutes ago, sixgun said:

The potential issue is gold - Gold went VAT free b/c of an EU directive. 

Yes,and it would be a travesty to reinstate VAT on Gold.  I guess we’ll have to wait and see. 

[Pete]

We always treat the Channel Isles as part of the UK but they are outside the EU.
Anything being shipped from the Channel Isles below a value ( around £12 I think ?? ) is subject to VAT and packages have always had to have a customs declaration, or if postage paid electronically a declaration filed on-line. So now that the transition period is ending, all goods arriving from the EU will be subject to VAT but not duty or quotas as that's in the agreement. Buying from GS.be or the European Mint for example will be invoiced VAT free but subject to UK VAT on arrival. Freedom of movement of goods has come to an end.

[Pete]

I thought to quickly check the new rules for buying silver from the EU.

Firstly in person you need to note the value of tax free goods -

Then buying on-line and having goods shipped there is an additional import declaration the needs to be made if the value exceeds £900 which was often the case purchasing from the European Mint or GS.be. I haven't invested any time in checking all the regulations and small print but on first glance it adds yet another obstacle.

[BackyardBullion]

Basically, HMRC is going to be swimming in extra cash (comparatively) because now HMRC will collect all VAT on any purchase wherever the item is based - unlike before where say if you bought a camera from Germany you paid the VAT to the German tax authority, now HMRC get it. I cannot see this changing because it will be a mega money earner. 

Free movement of goods and "free trade" has gone completely and will very unlikely return. 

[silversky]

One of the purposes of leaving the EU was to regain the ability to adjust our own taxes such as VAT.  It's all well and good to finally regain this ability (if we actually have) but it does also require a vision for the future to go along with it.  Sadly I don't see the Tory party as having any actual vision or energy left.  They're acting like a tired and half dead party at the end of a very long term in power.  They certainly don't look like they've just won a historic majority.

I haven't heard much talk of any vision to abolish VAT for a very long time now.  Basically they gave up on all of the benefits of Brexit in the quest for a deal.  VAT is an insidious and damaging EU tax and there is certainly a case at least to be argued for abolishing or reducing it.  Instead, I imagine that the same dismal and prohibitive system that's currently in place when trading with the USA now will just end up being the norm with the EU as well.  It was always sold as a benefit that once we were out we could do what we wanted with our tariffs and taxes.  But the EU have been adamant all along about a level playing field and I suspect that buried deep in this deal is some provision to stop us from making any radical changes.  I hope I'm wrong of course and no doubt when the thousands of pages have been carefully cross referenced we'll find out the situation.

Given the eyewatering cost of all the lockdowns this year I can't see any breaks coming from HMRC for the rest of my life.  The grand socialist-style employment scheme for a lucky group of people who got to stay at home and be paid will need to be paid back or hyper inflated away.  This payment will come not only from those who were lucky enough to be paid to sit at home but by everyone else as well who actually had to keep working or spending their savings this year.  The greatest wealth transfer in human history has taken place in the shadows and we're all going to be expected to cough up for it for the foreseeable future.  It is this disastrous financial reality that has derailed any vision of a free UK that the government had before the coof.  It was originally UKIP who had all the vision anyway and this Tory party just stole it to win power.  Their hearts were never into it really and now that times are tough I see them turning their backs on any bold moves.  I don't see them finding new vision to reduce taxes such as VAT but who knows.  

I heard in the local off licence that talk amongst the alcohol traders is that VAT is going to go up to 25% in the new year!  Clearly they're nervous about it and they've good reason to be.  Rather than a cash strapped HMRC abandoning VAT entirely (which would be an incredible shot in the arm for the UK) they're far more likely to be increasing it on goods which can be publicly attacked as being owned by "the rich".  If it turns out to be true that alcohol and other products suffer an increase in VAT, it's highly likely that Silver will find itself under pressure as well in my opinion.  As we all know, the silver market barely exists in the UK because of the VAT.  And we all know that if they abolished VAT, the Royal Mint and other bullion dealers would actually become competitive again here in the UK.  The industry would be reborn, generating at least some tax on profit and wages which would surely be more than the pittance they take now.  Sadly it's more likely that they're planning to hire armies of staff to open packages from the EU and charge VAT on everything.  This will be seen as a much needed windfall in the short term and it's likely that everything possible will be clubbed.

Just have to wait and see, but given this governments insane authoritarian bent of late, I have absolutely no confidence in them to do anything rational.  I can only hope that I'm wrong.

[Realwealthuprising]

With public debt levels were they are and even worse will be come 2021-2022 after the next god knows how many waves of mmt, I think labour or tory, they’ll tax everything they can think of. 

I wouldn’t be surpised if gold was taxed in the future, it would do two favours for government as it would steal money from investors which will be there goal, and it will be a way of coaxing people from divesting from £££’s

[bluemoon]

Yes I think it's more likely that gold will have VAT slapped on it that silver getting VAT removed. If I was an alien who just landed in Britain without knowing any of it's history, I'd see the country as very socialist and moving towards communism.

[billysilver]

22 minutes ago, bluemoon said:

Yes I think it's more likely that gold will have VAT slapped on it that silver getting VAT removed. If I was an alien who just landed in Britain without knowing any of it's history, I'd see the country as very socialist and moving towards communism.

Agreed, if you were an alien you would see it as such because it is the case. I went to the dentist couple months back and he is a South African and during conversation regarding The Boer War, The British and World perception of us I asked, did he see us as a "free democracy" or a socialist/communist state? He saw the country as socialist. We are certainly not as "free" as we are led to believe.

[Realwealthuprising]

21 minutes ago, billysilver said:

Agreed, if you were an alien you would see it as such because it is the case. I went to the dentist couple months back and he is a South African and during conversation regarding The Boer War, The British and World perception of us I asked, did he see us as a "free democracy" or a socialist/communist state? He saw the country as socialist. We are certainly not as "free" as we are led to believe.

England is so done, all thats left are the few remaining crumbs of a democracy.

Now it becomes something new. It will be great if your a neo marxist environmentalist who doesn’t want to work and hates free speech, free movement and logic....but for the rest of Britain it will be a survaillance state dystopia in which all aspects of life are dictated by the state. 2021 post brexit and under the guise of covid it will be ramped up big style, there is no escape now and I think history will increasingly come see that Brexit served not to keep others out but to trap Brits in during this phase of history.

Edited December 26, 2020 by Realwealthuprising

[vacancies]

57 minutes ago, Realwealthuprising said:

England is so done, all thats left are the few remaining crumbs of a democracy.

Now it becomes something new. It will be great if your a neo marxist environmentalist who doesn’t want to work and hates free speech, free movement and logic....but for the rest of Britain it will be a survaillance state dystopia in which all aspects of life are dictated by the state. 2021 post brexit and under the guise of covid it will be ramped up big style, there is no escape now and I think history will increasingly come see that Brexit served not to keep others out but to trap Brits in during this phase of history.

Merry Christmas everyone 😂

[Michal]

11 hours ago, Pete said:

I thought to quickly check the new rules for buying silver from the EU.

Firstly in person you need to note the value of tax free goods -

Then buying on-line and having goods shipped there is an additional import declaration the needs to be made if the value exceeds £900 which was often the case purchasing from the European Mint or GS.be. I haven't invested any time in checking all the regulations and small print but on first glance it adds yet another obstacle.

Wait so even on goods worth under £270 you have to pay VAT ?

Edited December 27, 2020 by Michal
Not tax but VAT