Sovereign = legal tender; why no denomination?

[FourNinesFine]

Firstly, sorry for a super-noob question.

I know that the sovereign IS legal UK tender, so not looking for clarity on that. I'm just wondering:

1) why it's allowed to be legal tender when the coin itself doesn't carry a denomination

2) is there a reason it doesn't - historically?

I thought there may some fascinating back-story. Or is it just that it's the most famous coin in the world, so why bother explaining it when everyone knows what it is?

 

[Foster88]

The ‘modern’ sovereign today dates back to 1817 so we’re a little over 200 years past the year when it first entered circulation.

Imagine how people felt in 1914 trading their gold sovereigns for bits of paper (bank notes).

I think everyone would have known what a sovereign was by eye so why say what it was. It’s a bit like a Crown, nowhere on the old Crown coins did it say the denomination. I’m not old enough to remember pre decimalisation but saying the denomination on coins is mostly a post 1971 thing. Having said that, the 1p coin and 3p coin always had ‘One Penny and Three Pence’ on them.

I’m sure @LawrenceChard will be along tomorrow to give you a more concise answer than I can.

Edited April 10, 2022 by Foster88

[FourNinesFine]

Yes, look at me with my 'new world' thinking. I never even considered that it was just the norm. I guess we just get conditioned to what we know, right? And as my personal vintage is newer than 1971 (even if just marginally), I've only ever really known coins with denomination stamped.

Thanks @Foster88. Appreciate it.

FNF.

[Foster88]

1 hour ago, FourNinesFine said:

Yes, look at me with my 'new world' thinking. I never even considered that it was just the norm. I guess we just get conditioned to what we know, right? And as my personal vintage is newer than 1971 (even if just marginally), I've only ever really known coins with denomination stamped.

Thanks @Foster88. Appreciate it.

FNF.

There’s no need to thank me as we’re a community here. 

You do raise a good question but I think the sovereign didn’t nor does need to state it’s denomination.

I’ve also only ever known coins with the denomination stated on the coin as ‘face value’.

Even with ‘new world’ thinking as you say. Every question is worth asking.

The only silly question is one that was never asked.

[ady]

Is this not why gold is the currency of kings, silver the curreny of...etc. The modern sov being a known weight, it is just a adjustment to mental calculation of worth, maybe silver as a commoner had to be stamped with value for ironically the more illiterate. Calculation of value has even been done on other threads to value of copper and nickel in coins.

[GoldDiggerDave]

It may have had to do with the literacy of the population, what would the point be  to mint coins with denominations when all the serfs can't read.  To make it harder the legend is a mix of English, Latin, abbreviated Latin and or French.  (Not the only reason why there's French language on English, then British coins)  How many people in 2022 can read the legend of a UK coin?  

Even today the Royal Mint mints coins for other nations African in this case with 2015 dates. (I have seen this and did ask this question "why are you minting coins with pervious dates")  The answer I got from the Royal Mint  they said "Most of the local population are illiterate and are familiar with the coin and the date, they are taught it's genuine and  if you change the date they think it's a fake"    Not my words and I'm in no way suggesting anyone of any nation is illiterate, just the reply I got from the Royal Mint. 

Also what others have mentioned, the coin was used for a standard weight a of precious metal.  When you think about this once all the precious metals was removed this is around the time a denomination become the norm.  Maybe trying to make an almost intrinsically worthless coin have value by stating a denomination? 

Cheers Dave. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[GoldDiggerDave]

Helpful books

 https://www.amazon.co.uk/History-Sovereign-Chief-Coin-World/dp/1869917006

https://www.royalmint.com/our-coins/ranges/historic-coins/historic-books/Objects-of-War-Currency-in-a-Time-of-Conflict/

@Foster88 The 2nd book by Dr Kevin Clancy Objects of War, is a very interesting book and talks about 1914 and run toto WW1 and the subsequent run on the banks for sovereigns and the introduction of the Bradbury £1 note.   As for what people felt they were seriously unhappy  the PR machine tried to tell British people holding sovereigns was unpatriotic.  They population knew the ruling classes took the wealth out of the currency out of the hands of the people into the hands of the few this happened in sync with many nations strange that?

We could witness something similar in our lifetime once cash vanishes, this will be another step for the wealth (whats left) out of the hands of the many into the controlling hands of the few.  

Edited April 10, 2022 by GoldDiggerDave

[Au79]

Sovereign has a default nomination value of one pound sterling since inception. Sovereign produce by the Royal Mint is legal tender in United Kingdom, settlement is another matter of contention. 

https://gocardless.com/guides/posts/what-is-legal-tender-uk/#:~:text=By law%2C legal tender is,to the value of 20p.

 

[ady]

1 hour ago, GoldDiggerDave said:

We could witness something similar in our lifetime once cash vanishes, this will be another step for the wealth (whats left) out of the hands of the many into the controlling hands of the few.

This I think is key, it frightens me seeing people not using coins and notes, and even more contactless (could this have something to do with covid and pushing the idea of dirty money). I do believe both an uncentralized crypto and gods money will break the back of fiat.

[Bigmarc]

1 hour ago, Au79 said:

Sovereign has a default nomination value of one pound sterling since inception. Sovereign produce by the Royal Mint is legal tender in United Kingdom, settlement is another matter of contention. 

https://gocardless.com/guides/posts/what-is-legal-tender-uk/#:~:text=By law%2C legal tender is,to the value of 20p.

 

I think before the gold standard Issac Newton valued it as 4.25lb of silver to 1 ounce of gold. It was like that for 200 years or so. So 1lb of silver to 1 sovereign sounds about right. I can't remember where I read this sorry for no links.

[Booky586]

19 minutes ago, Bigmarc said:

So 1lb of silver to 1 sovereign sounds about right.

Is this the origin of the pound sterling?

[GoldDiggerDave]

@Bigmarc thanks for that.  Did you know Newton was a psychopathic torturer? 

Something the RM does not like to talk about him when he was Master of the mint. He sought after and found coin forgers and promised them clemency if they spilled their guts on others who was in the forgery supply chain, once they fessed up he still should have them hung, drawn and quartered as as deterrent to other forgers it was brutal but very effective way to stop forgery. 
 

 

[LawrenceChard]

10 hours ago, FourNinesFine said:

Firstly, sorry for a super-noob question.

I know that the sovereign IS legal UK tender, so not looking for clarity on that. I'm just wondering:

1) why it's allowed to be legal tender when the coin itself doesn't carry a denomination

2) is there a reason it doesn't - historically?

I thought there may some fascinating back-story. Or is it just that it's the most famous coin in the world, so why bother explaining it when everyone knows what it is?

 

 

9 hours ago, Foster88 said:

The ‘modern’ sovereign today dates back to 1817 so we’re a little over 200 years past the year when it first entered circulation.

Imagine how people felt in 1914 trading their gold sovereigns for bits of paper (bank notes).

I think everyone would have known what a sovereign was by eye so why say what it was. It’s a bit like a Crown, nowhere on the old Crown coins did it say the denomination. I’m not old enough to remember pre decimalisation but saying the denomination on coins is mostly a post 1971 thing. Having said that, the 1p coin and 3p coin always had ‘One Penny and Three Pence’ on them.

I’m sure @LawrenceChard will be along tomorrow to give you a more concise answer than I can.

 

9 hours ago, FourNinesFine said:

Yes, look at me with my 'new world' thinking. I never even considered that it was just the norm. I guess we just get conditioned to what we know, right? And as my personal vintage is newer than 1971 (even if just marginally), I've only ever really known coins with denomination stamped.

Thanks @Foster88. Appreciate it.

FNF.

No need to wait until tomorrow for my input, @Foster88, same day service, even at weekend! (Although rarely concise).

Have a look at any ancient coin, for example:

Britannia, Seated on the Reverse of an As of Antoninus Pius

Notice, it does not have a denomination shown on it.

Then you could have a look at this page:

Gold Coins
Four millennia of gold coin production and use - a brief history.

ttps://taxfreegold.co.uk/goldcoinsbriefhistory.html

Although it deals with gold coins, similar principles also apply to silver coins, and base metal ones.

You might also find this page interesting:

https://www.chards.co.uk/blog/brief-history-of-british-coins/464

Some coins of Elizabeth I had "value marks" on them, for example, this shilling had a rose to distinguish it from a shilling or groat (fourpence):

Although there may be some earlier examples of denominations shown on coins, it became more important under Elizabeth I because of the huge expansion in coinage and the number of denominations.

The pages I have linked also answer a number of other points raised in this topic / thread.

🙂

 

[FourNinesFine]

2 minutes ago, LawrenceChard said:

It became more important under Elizabeth I because of the huge expansion in coinage and the number of denominations.

The pages I have linked also answer a number of other points raised in this topic / thread.

🙂

 

I've run out of 'reactions' so you get the full quoted response.  Thanks for this, I'll try and make my way through the links. 👍

FNF.

[LawrenceChard]

18 minutes ago, GoldDiggerDave said:

@Bigmarc thanks for that.  Did you know Newton was a psychopathic torturer? 

Something the RM does not like to talk about him when he was Master of the mint. He sought after and found coin forgers and promised them clemency if they spilled their guts on others who was in the forgery supply chain, once they fessed up he still should have them hung, drawn and quartered as as deterrent to other forgers it was brutal but very effective way to stop forgery. 
 

I had forgotten about that, but he was only continuing a tradition.

Eloye Mestrelle was a talented French Moneyer, who introduced milled coinage to England. His designs, machinery, and production quality were all superior to those at the Royal Mint at the time. In 1572 the new Warden of the Mint Richard Martin, who seems to have been a bean-counter, dismissed Mestrelle, who was later hanged for forgery, although it is not certain he was guilty.

😎

[Bigmarc]

3 hours ago, Booky586 said:

Is this the origin of the pound sterling?

I think so, before sterling I think there was a brief part of history where the silver coinage was being diluted down in order to pay for wars. In the end the soldiers refused to fight and then I think sterling was introduced and the minting moved from the money men (kind of subcontractors that made coins) to in house. All the money men subsequently became forgers as no longer needed. From that moment on sterling silver was the standard. 

Please correct me if I am wrong. Just trying to remember.

[Stuntman]

The history of coins page on the Chards website that Lawrence linked to is the sort of thing that makes people interested in collecting older UK coins.

The first UK coin that actually had its denomination written on it was the Farthing of 1799.  These are relatively easy to come by, and are a nice coin to have in a collection that has 'a bit of everything' in it.  

The modern sovereign from 1817 onwards came out after this date of course but most UK circulating coins didn't actually have their denominations written on them until the 1830s-1860s.  Some denominations even later.  Halfcrowns not until 1893 and Crowns not until 1927, I think!

So the Sovereign has probably just never needed to evolve in such a way to include its denomination, given that it is made of gold and its basic specifications have remained unchanged.  Most other coins have changed metal composition and/or size since 1817, multiple times!

[Stuntman]

Here are 3 examples of the 1799 Farthing currently for sale at the same coin dealer.  Basic, better, best...

https://www.thecoinking.co.uk/collections/farthings-and-fractionals/products/1799-farthing-george-iii-british-copper-coin-nice

https://www.thecoinking.co.uk/collections/farthings-and-fractionals/products/1799-farthing-george-iii-british-copper-coin-very-nice

https://www.thecoinking.co.uk/collections/farthings-and-fractionals/products/1799-farthing-george-iii-british-copper-coin-superb

All are nice, although I'd probably choose the middle one myself from a value perspective.

 

[ady]

21 minutes ago, Stuntman said:

Here are 3 examples of the 1799 Farthing currently for sale at the same coin dealer

Amazing the talent on here, it is almost nerdish- i'd be glad of the first!

[Britannia47]

Anyone rich enough to carry a sovereign after 1817 knew its worth - It was 20 shillings or £1 pound!  The Sovereign replaced the Guinea which was 21 shillings or £1.05p in todays money. The Napoleonic war was paid for in £s so it was an easy decision to make. Therefore, a half-sovereign would have been 10/- (Ten Shillings) and so on. However a 1/4 sovereign pattern of 1853 did have a denomination of 'Five Shillings' on the reverse! This coin was never adopted or circulated.

As an aside, re. 1lb of sterling silver, I am reminded of a 12 bore/gauge shotgun. That was the number of balls of equal size in 1 pound of lead (or 18.55mm calibre)  Don't get me started on guns!

  

 

[FourNinesFine]

37 minutes ago, Stuntman said:

The history of coins page on the Chards website that Lawrence linked to is the sort of thing that makes people interested in collecting older UK coins.

I think it's that, and in terms of the farthing you linked, the pure nostalgia of wondering how many times it's changed hands since 1799 and the amazing adventures each coin has likely been on.

[Must... not... fall...down that...rabbit hole...]

[LawrenceChard]

1 hour ago, Stuntman said:

The history of coins page on the Chards website that Lawrence linked to is the sort of thing that makes people interested in collecting older UK coins.

The first UK coin that actually had its denomination written on it was the Farthing of 1799.  These are relatively easy to come by, and are a nice coin to have in a collection that has 'a bit of everything' in it.  

The modern sovereign from 1817 onwards came out after this date of course but most UK circulating coins didn't actually have their denominations written on them until the 1830s-1860s.  Some denominations even later.  Halfcrowns not until 1893 and Crowns not until 1927, I think!

So the Sovereign has probably just never needed to evolve in such a way to include its denomination, given that it is made of gold and its basic specifications have remained unchanged.  Most other coins have changed metal composition and/or size since 1817, multiple times!

Thanks, @Stuntman, for the comment.

When I read your mention that the 1799 farthing was the first UK coin to feature its denomination, I thought "Why didn't I know that?", so I Googled "1799 farthing", and found an old familiar page:

https://24carat.co.uk/frame.php?url=1799farthing.html

A quick glance at the photos explained why:

By the time I got to replying, I had an enlightenment, but see later...

I might be wrong (again), but I think the first UK coin to bear its denomination was the 1668 silver twopence of Charles II, although this was in the form of two interlinked letter "C"s, so it could be argued that the 1685 silver penny and threepence of James II were the first, as they had the Roman numerals "I" and "III" on their reverse.

Now back to the enlightenment:

On checking the images on our old 1799 Farthing web page, I noticed we had used photos of copper halfpennies for some reason. As these do not have their denomination on them, it is not instantly obvious that we screwed up. It would also mislead anyone looking on our site for information. The page was probably created in about 2000, and I can't remember whether I wrote the page (I hope not), or whether I can pass the buck to anyone else.

We had used the same photos correctly on this page about 1799 Halfpennies:

https://24carat.co.uk/frame.php?url=1799halfpenny.html

So Stuntman was probably more correct, or less wrong, than I was, but neither of us got it right.

Now I have discovered our "boob", I will need to find an actual 1799 farthing, get a decent photo, and correct the incorrect page. I am not sure we have a minty one to photograph.

Also, it's now too late for anyone to claim their free pint for spotting our "deliberate error".

😎

Edited April 10, 2022 by LawrenceChard

[LawrenceChard]

21 minutes ago, Britannia47 said:

As an aside, re. 1lb of sterling silver, I am reminded of a 12 bore/gauge shotgun. That was the number of balls of equal size in 1 pound of lead (or 18.55mm calibre)  Don't get me started on guns!

  

Although this risks yet another digression off topic, I feel that @HerefordBullyun might have some insights into "balls of equal size"!

😎

[HerefordBullyun]

Just now, LawrenceChard said:

Although this risks yet another digression off topic, I feel that @HerefordBullyun might have some insights into "balls of equal size"!

😎

I actually know more about guns to be fair....

[SidS]

Denominations stated on 'British' coins is an interesting one. I say British but actually mean English before 1707. Scottish coins etc. might have their own examples but I know nothing about those.

The first English coins I can think of with denominations stated are James I coins from the 1603-25 era. The silver/gold coins often have the denomination stated in Roman numerals - VI for sixpence, XX for the Pound coin (20 shillings, which went by many names), XXX for half crown (30 pence).

This continued through to the end of hammered in 1662.

Then stated denominations were mostly scrapped, except for Maundy coinage which stated the value in a variety of ways. Interlinked C's during Charles II's reign, Roman numerals (actually I for Iacobus) during James II's reign, giving way to Arabic numerals onwards from 1689.

The farthing joined the value stated club in 1799, the Sixpence and Shilling joined in 1831-4, although had a brief spell out of it again during 1887-1892. The Britannia groat hit the ground running in 1836 with denomination stated.

The florin debuted in 1849 with two denominations 'one florin' and 'one tenth of a pound' stated proudly.

The bronze coinage of 1860s onwards started with denominations.

Realistically there was a slow shift to full denominations stated from the 1830s onwards. Up until 1887, when there was a blip backwards to no denominations stated throughout the jubilee era (except denominations 6d downwards, which kept them).

By the old head era the denominations started up again. The crown upwards though didn't, as stated in other posters' replies.

So it's way more complex than at first glance.