Great Engravers - Petition Crown (Gazette Proclamation)

[AppleZippoandMetronome]

21 hours ago, Frenchie said:

Looking at the number of posts about this new GE and the last being a few days ago, it does not seem to carry a  lot of enthusiasm...we are far from the 3G announcement. Does this bode well for the success of this release ?

Just an observation 

I think its a number of things. Lots of people were let down massively and lost money with the GCs. The release of those two was so badly done generally by the RM it really left a bad taste in the mouths of those who got into the series before the hype. This being another two coin cash grab is enough to put people off especially in light of how badly the GC release was for both coins. The Royal Mint's general inability to get coins into the hands of those that ordered them will surely be starting to annoy people and lead to loss of further sales or loss of interest.

I'm not sure where I stand on this one. I've only been collecting the 2oz silvers of the GE series. The GC release left such a bad taste in my mouth and to me was so mishandled by the RM I think I'd of preferred it if they ended the series there. I don't have any love or desire for more coins in the series at this point and if I do try to buy them it'll be purely for completionist sake. At this point I feel any further releases will only serve to bring down the reputation and values of the series so far.

[westminstrel]

 

1 hour ago, Paul said:

So do we collectively think FLOP for this release?? 

I was slightly inclined to get the 2 Oz silver, and potentially the 5 Oz silver, depending on mintage, just to have a token of this series.

However, this wasn’t a coin that appealed to me ever since it was first rumoured on here, and after seeing the Westminster Collection replica today (boring design in boring shiny silver) I’m convinced that, at least for me, this is a pass.

Flippers may indeed make a few % profit in the short term, simply because this will be marketed as part of the Great Engravers range, and those who missed out on the previous coins may try to jump on the bandwagon now. But, as we’ve seen with the Gothic Crown release, that ship has long sailed.

I personally will let this one pass in lieu of the Coronation coins, whose designs I hope will be more appealing, besides being associated with a historic occasion.

In a way I’m glad the RM picked this coin for 2023 as I can let it pass without second guessing myself and continue saving up for the Coronation coins and especially the Coronation Sovereign(s).

Edited February 21, 2023 by westminstrel

[NewCoins]

1 hour ago, Paul said:

So do we collectively think FLOP for this release?? 

The increasing mintages of the GE series has always been the major issue for me.

Beautiful coins which are hard to get was the biggest selling point in my view. Isn't that the reason why the originals are so admired ?

I agree this one doesn't have the eye appeal of the others. But bump the mintages down and it may make it a success from a collectors perspective. 

The RM seemed to prioritise short term profit by increasing the mintages, which long term for this series is probably going to hurt them.

They should be bold and go back to 3k mintage.

I am personally undecided whether to get this one, without it being two coins also adds additional stress.

I probably will though...

[Sc391]

12 hours ago, westminstrel said:

I was googling around and found that the Westminster Collection has a replica of this coin.

The Royal Mint version can’t look much different - it will of course have the “petition” as edge lettering, that being the entire point of this coin, and will also have KC III on the obverse.

So honestly, is the “Portrait” really appealing? The “Arms” perhaps has some intricacy and appeal, but the Portrait?

The silvers will just be brand new and shiny, and look like something from the British Monarchs range. Edge lettering isn’t something uber special either - lots of RM silver and BU coins have edge lettering.

Also, who would want these in gold, at a total cost of £11,000 or thereabouts?

Someone help me understand… 🫥

And at only £19.99 each from Westminster just think of how much money you will save

[jultorsk]

On 20/02/2023 at 23:16, westminstrel said:

 

So honestly, is the “Portrait” really appealing? The “Arms” perhaps has some intricacy and appeal, but the Portrait?

... and look like something from the British Monarchs range. 

This was exactly my first thought as well. 👍 

Like many others, I'm worried about these after the GC experience. 😬

 

 

[apachebleu]

On 21/02/2023 at 04:56, westminstrel said:

 

I was slightly inclined to get the 2 Oz silver, and potentially the 5 Oz silver, depending on mintage, just to have a token of this series.

However, this wasn’t a coin that appealed to me ever since it was first rumoured on here, and after seeing the Westminster Collection replica today (boring design in boring shiny silver) I’m convinced that, at least for me, this is a pass.

Flippers may indeed make a few % profit in the short term, simply because this will be marketed as part of the Great Engravers range, and those who missed out on the previous coins may try to jump on the bandwagon now. But, as we’ve seen with the Gothic Crown release, that ship has long sailed.

I personally will let this one pass in lieu of the Coronation coins, whose designs I hope will be more appealing, besides being associated with a historic occasion.

In a way I’m glad the RM picked this coin for 2023 as I can let it pass without second guessing myself and continue saving up for the Coronation coins and especially the Coronation Sovereign(s).

 I agree, I don't think it's anything special at all and the 2 coin set is nonsense. 

 I like the idea of the great engraver coins but they have to be truly special and beautiful to justify the prices. To my eye, and it seems I'm not alone, these just are not. 

 I also think una was a unicorn coin with its values going crazy, the 3 graces did well on the back of it but I think it was expected that calling something great engraver was a guarantee it would go up in price. Its pretty safe to say after the gothic that's not the case and when the follow up to a relative flop like the gothic is an uglier version of the same coin I can't see this being worth it as an investment or an ornament.

 But of course, like the rest of us here saying we don't like it I'll probably be in the launch day queue...I disgust myself  sometimes

[Sc391]

Does anyone have any update/confirmation of the release date and time?  I’m probably jumping in, although it’s always a plain old dumb luck chance of getting anything 

[SidS]

When are they doing a version of the Churchill Crown? Surely that's something they can't muck up? 😉

[westminstrel]

2 hours ago, apachebleu said:

But of course, like the rest of us here saying we don't like it I'll probably be in the launch day queue...I disgust myself  sometimes

😆😆😆 I totally feel you! 🫠

[GoldDiggerDave]

Any ideas on release dates? 

[GoldDiggerDave]

On 21/02/2023 at 08:04, AppleZippoandMetronome said:

I think its a number of things. Lots of people were let down massively and lost money with the GCs. The release of those two was so badly done generally by the RM it really left a bad taste in the mouths of those who got into the series before the hype. This being another two coin cash grab is enough to put people off especially in light of how badly the GC release was for both coins. The Royal Mint's general inability to get coins into the hands of those that ordered them will surely be starting to annoy people and lead to loss of further sales or loss of interest.

I'm not sure where I stand on this one. I've only been collecting the 2oz silvers of the GE series. The GC release left such a bad taste in my mouth and to me was so mishandled by the RM I think I'd of preferred it if they ended the series there. I don't have any love or desire for more coins in the series at this point and if I do try to buy them it'll be purely for completionist sake. At this point I feel any further releases will only serve to bring down the reputation and values of the series so far.

I agree with what you said about the horrid release of the GC, this coin IMO is the best of the bunch the split launch was a joke.  The PC should be sold as a 2 coin set straight off the bat to stop the messing around trying to get the other coin especially if you bought them on the secondary market.     

Mintage figures!!!!!!!!   this is the only thing that could put the coins back on track, they need to lower them dramatically to make them more exclusive, if they keep on wanging up the mintage like they are doing it will be the death-nail for the series.   We need to see circa 225-250 max for the 2oz golds anything more than 300 then I'm not touching them unless the coin really floats my boat. 

 

[westminstrel]

2 minutes ago, GoldDiggerDave said:

I agree with what you said about the horrid release of the GC, this coin IMO is the best of the bunch the split launch was a joke.  The PC should be sold as a 2 coin set straight off the bat to stop the messing around trying to get the other coin especially if you bought them on the secondary market.     

Mintage figures!!!!!!!!   this is the only thing that could put the coins back on track, they need to lower them dramatically to make them more exclusive, if they keep on wanging up the mintage like they are doing it will be the death-nail for the series.   We need to see circa 225-250 max for the 2oz golds anything more than 300 then I'm not touching them unless the coin really floats my boat. 

 

I know right!? Ever since the series was first announced, the Gothic Crown was the most hotly anticipated coin… and it flopped spectacularly.

Indeed, the only things that its failure can be attributed to are the higher mintages and the split release. 

[foinikas]

In my opinion, Royal Mint killed this series with GC. Two coins sets with Large mintage and then plain edge variant… heavy price increases on top of all that.

Even with v.low mintages, again a two set which will be around £11k, i can not see why someone will buy this (unless multimillionaire collector who buys everything).

i’d rather save my money for the new proof special reverse sovereign and perhaps the coronation set.

[Sc391]

I will agree the release was anxiety ridden, but I love the coin design.  I got ‘em both in 2oz and even a 5 ounce silver quartered arms because I thought the design was classic.  
 

just have to wait and see what the RM comes up with 

[westminstrel]

1 hour ago, foinikas said:

Two coins sets with Large mintage and then plain edge variant… heavy price increases on top of all that.

Oh yes I forgot about the plain edge variants of the gold coins.

Luckily there’s zero chance of the Petition Crown having a plain edge variant. 😜

[SidS]

12 hours ago, westminstrel said:

Luckily there’s zero chance of the Petition Crown having a plain edge variant. 

You've heard of the Godless Florin, now we have the Petitionless Petition Crown.

[Paul]

On 25/02/2023 at 10:33, westminstrel said:

the Gothic Crown was the most hotly anticipated coin… and it flopped spectacularly.

Long term holders 10+ years i think will all still do OK with this series i hope.

As and when they disappear into tight collectors hands over the years and less come to market, the true value will begin to shine i feel.   

Sadly the market of coins these days is littered with grading to resell for profit and habitual flippers happy to get any profits

If all the coins had all gone into tight hands from day 1 and very few come to market it may be a very different story

Im not parting with any of my GE gold anytime soon  

[westminstrel]

28 minutes ago, Paul said:

Long term holders 10+ years i think will all still do OK with this series i hope.

As and when they disappear into tight collectors hands over the years and less come to market, the true value will begin to shine i feel.   

Sadly the market of coins these days is littered with grading to resell for profit and habitual flippers happy to get any profits

If all the coins had all gone into tight hands from day 1 and very few come to market it may be a very different story

Im not parting with any of my GE gold anytime soon  

Yes I believe you’re right about this.

Numismatics, in recent years, has become more about making a quick buck than actually collecting coins. The hobby, the act, of “collecting”, seems to have been lost somewhere.

We’ve had debates here on the forums about flipping, and how everyone can be called a flipper since we all buy with the intent to sell sooner or later, even if it is the next generation who does the selling, but I do feel like we gauge the success of a coin based on its short term flip-potential.

You’re right about the long term potential of the gold Gothic Crown coins. Especially the plain edge version (which has an even smaller mintage than the milled edge version, if I remember correctly).

I think the entire Gothic Crown range is mistakenly being judged with the same broad brushstroke - but the rarer gold versions, and the higher denomination silver versions, will definitely be classics in years to come.

[SidS]

49 minutes ago, westminstrel said:

Numismatics, in recent years, has become more about making a quick buck than actually collecting coins. The hobby, the act, of “collecting”, seems to have been lost somewhere.

There are still some of us old style collectors around.

Long term holding can result in some nice profits once in a while. If profits is what your after. Although collecting for its own sake can be equally enjoyable.

[westminstrel]

1 hour ago, SidS said:

There are still some of us old style collectors around.

Long term holding can result in some nice profits once in a while. If profits is what you’re after. Although collecting for its own sake can be equally enjoyable.

Yes! I’ve always been a collector of all sorts of things ever since I was a kid. It’s the pleasure of owning something that appeals to me. Whether it appreciates or depreciates in value is secondary.

As my father told me many years back when we talked about collecting (and  I’m paraphrasing):

”In life, you win some, you lose some. If it’s brought you pleasure while you owned it, that’s all that should matter. You can’t put a price on that.”

Glad to know you’re an old style collector too, @SidS. 🙂 

Edit: On the other hand my mom thought my dad and I were both mad. 😆

Edited February 26, 2023 by westminstrel

[SidS]

57 minutes ago, westminstrel said:

Yes! I’ve always been a collector of all sorts of things ever since I was a kid. It’s the pleasure of owning something that appeals to me. Whether it appreciates or depreciates in value is secondary.

As my father told me many years back when we talked about collecting (and  I’m paraphrasing):

”In life, you win some, you lose some. If it’s brought you pleasure while you owned it, that’s all that should matter. You can’t put a price on that.”

Glad to know you’re an old style collector too, @SidS. 🙂 

Edit: On the other hand my mom thought my dad and I were both mad. 😆

Couldn't agree more.

You can spend all your life chasing the next thing, always wanting more. I've met many people like this. Great for them if they enjoy it. If they end up feeling disappointed, more often than not, then that's not such a good feeling.

One of life's great lessons for me was to learn to appreciate what I have. I've got better at this with age. There's nothing wrong with seeking contentment.

[Chrisplym]

21 hours ago, foinikas said:

In my opinion, Royal Mint killed this series with GC. Two coins sets with Large mintage and then plain edge variant… heavy price increases on top of all that.

Even with v.low mintages, again a two set which will be around £11k, i can not see why someone will buy this (unless multimillionaire collector who buys everything).

i’d rather save my money for the new proof special reverse sovereign and perhaps the coronation set.

I may have missed something here. Is there going to be a new proof special reverse sovereign?

[foinikas]

2 hours ago, Chrisplym said:

I may have missed something here. Is there going to be a new proof special reverse sovereign?

Yes, coronation sovereign. No more info are known at the moment, except that it should be out before 5th May..

[SiCole]

36 minutes ago, foinikas said:

Yes, coronation sovereign. No more info are known at the moment, except that it should be out before 5th May..

Do you know where you saw that info? Only info i have seen is a 1, 2 and 5oz 999.9 fine gold coin and not a sovereign

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/notice/4277741

[richatthecroft]

Any enthusiasm for the Petition Crown release will inevitably be dampened by the potential of QC issues and the prospect of a long wait for the despatch.

I still think the Great Engravers series stands up, particularly the Una, but also the Three Graces and the Gothic pair- the Gothic's have attracted unnecessary criticism, the release was the most hotly anticipated of 2021 and oversubscribed despite the mintages being upped so much- but ultimately, it was the quality, the wait for the coins and an overly- expectant coin community who thought another immediate multi bagger of premium was in the offing just for a quick flip.

Other reasons have also been suggested above, but I guess the economic climate is also a lot to do with the ‘flop’ of the Gothic's- but regardless of how they are perceived now, the Gothic Arms and Portrait remain beautiful coins, that will continue to give a collector many years of enjoyment. 

In terms of the forthcoming release of the Petition Crown, I look at it this way, the original Crown was a fantastic achievement given the technological advances it brought to coin production at that time, it was only several years earlier that coins were being struck crudely by hammer- and the technological know how and detail of both the Portrait and Reverse of the Petition Crown for its time, is remarkable.

Fundamentally, I believe the problem with this release is its exposure- not many collectors of these modern coins would aspire to own a Petition Crown if they came into money, many would have likely not heard of the issue before this release but conversely, many would gladly lose a limb to own an original Una, Three Graces or Gothic Crown.

There lies the problem- the Petition Crown was a marvel of design, engraving and technological advances such as security measures with the advent of an inscribed edge, a massive leap from Hammered coins to what we now recognise as modern coinage, but unfortunately, there’s no enthusiasm, as people find it difficult to appreciate it as the marvel it was, the work of a Great Engraver- 165 years before William Wyon first started to ply his trade.