Great Engravers - Petition Crown (Gazette Proclamation)

[westminstrel]

3 hours ago, Chrisplym said:

I may have missed something here. Is there going to be a new proof special reverse sovereign?

 

56 minutes ago, SiCole said:

Do you know where you saw that info? Only info i have seen is a 1, 2 and 5oz 999.9 fine gold coin and not a sovereign

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/notice/4277741

There is no exclusive Gazette Proclamation that confirms this. Right now it’s just info off the grapevine.

However, some indications that support the rumours…

-  The Gazette Proclamation for the Memorial Sovereign (which specifies the Coat of Arms as the reverse and KC III’s effigy as the obverse) could be used for the Coronation Sovereign. So no extra Proclamation is needed.

-  There is also no Gazette Proclamation yet specifying St. George and the Dragon as the reverse.

-  The bullion Sovereign pages mention this (and it’s more than likely they are referring to the Coronation Sovereign).

This Sovereign is dated 2022 as it was struck to memorialise the passing of Her Late Majesty Queen Elizabeth II. A further Sovereign bullion coin range will launch in 2023.

[westminstrel]

My personal thinking is, just like the Memorial Sovereign, they’ll have some limited mintage proof Coronation Sovereigns / sets / SotDs, with the rest  being sold until some cutoff date, mintage determined by sales. And an accompanying bullion range until some cutoff date.

They’ll do this (once again) to give the maximum number of people the chance to get in on this.

I assume (and hope!) the regular St. George and Dragon will return for 2024; which of course they will start selling around November / December this year. I hope they don’t also do G&D for 2023 because that’d be madness. 🫠

[Sc391]

@richatthecroft  - amen brother.  Well stated.  I think some folks get caught up more in the release and resale than in the actual coin and its history.  I think this is a great set and hope to get lucky.

[westminstrel]

5 hours ago, richatthecroft said:

In terms of the forthcoming release of the Petition Crown, I look at it this way, the original Crown was a fantastic achievement given the technological advances it brought to coin production at that time, it was only several years earlier that coins were being struck crudely by hammer- and the technological know how and detail of both the Portrait and Reverse of the Petition Crown for its time, is remarkable.

Fundamentally, I believe the problem with this release is its exposure- not many collectors of these modern coins would aspire to own a Petition Crown if they came into money, many would have likely not heard of the issue before this release but conversely, many would gladly lose a limb to own an original Una, Three Graces or Gothic Crown.

There lies the problem- the Petition Crown was a marvel of design, engraving and technological advances such as security measures with the advent of an inscribed edge, a massive leap from Hammered coins to what we now recognise as modern coinage, but unfortunately, there’s no enthusiasm, as people find it difficult to appreciate it as the marvel it was, the work of a Great Engraver- 165 years before William Wyon first started to ply his trade. 

Great points. 🙂 I’m one of those who had never heard of this coin until I heard about it here several months back as being a potential candidate for the Great Engravers series.

I don’t think anyone would really deny that the coin was an achievement for its time.

I think what many are saying is that the design isn’t really all that appealing. After all, the upcoming coin is just a modern reproduction, a replica, and most people would buy it for its design. And there are so many better candidates, design-wise, that could’ve been chosen which collectors would be 100x more excited about.

The RM should probably consider frequenting forums like TSF before they make such decisions. It can give them a good sense of what collectors like and anticipate. I know back in the day the RM had some sort of mega survey which many of us here also received. I suppose at this point the RM doesn’t really worry too much about surveying the market as almost everything sells out anyway - even their really questionable ranges. 😆

[SidS]

10 hours ago, richatthecroft said:

...unfortunately, there’s no enthusiasm, as people find it difficult to appreciate it as the marvel it was, the work of a Great Engraver- 165 years before William Wyon first started to ply his trade. 

Probably because it's a butt ugly coin.

As most of you know, I'm a massive fan of early milled coinage, it's long been an area of interest for me.

I can appreciate the designs of this era more than most. However, I find the Petition Crown hard to love. The reverse is top notch. The obverse - although clearly the work of a skilled engraver - is just plain ugly.

When John Roettier won the competition to design the new milled coinage, I think the better design won. The Charles II coinages are exceptionally well produced and in spite of Charles' less than stunning appearance, the coins actually have great eye appeal.

Obviously Thomas Simon's close proximity to the Cromwellian regime was ultimately what saw him lose the competition, English coinage was better for it.

Edited February 27, 2023 by SidS

[westminstrel]

13 minutes ago, SidS said:

Probably because it's a butt ugly coin.

As most of you know, I'm a massive fan of early milled coinage, it's long been an area of interest for me.

I can appreciate the designs of this era more than most. However, I find the Petition Crown hard to love. The reverse is top notch. The obverse - although clearly the work of a skilled engraver - is just plain ugly.

When John Roettier won the competition to design the new milled coinage, I think the better design won. The Charles II coinages are exceptionally well produced and in spite of Charles' less than stunning appearance, the coins actually have great eye appeal.

Obviously Thomas Simon's close proximity to the Cromwellian regime was ultimately what saw him lose the competition, English coinage was better for it.

Thanks for your thoughts on this. It’s good to have an educated perspective on this topic, as I admit I have no knowledge at all about this early coinage, and my opinions are purely subjective, based on my personal feelings about this coin. 🙂

[westminstrel]

Regarding the production of the upcoming Petition Crown…

What will be truly exceptional and make the coin a little more worthy of a re-release will be if the Royal Mint mimics the concave / convex aspect of the original.

The Royal Mint did this recently with the Royal Albert Hall “domed” coin which they advertised as:

• The first UK coin to feature a convex surface, elevating the intricate details of the design
• Accurately recreates the unmistakable domed roof of the Royal Albert Hall within the miniature canvas of a coin

https://www.royalmint.com/our-coins/events/royal-albert-hall/the-150th-anniversary-of-the-royal-albert-hall-2021-uk-5-pound-silver-proof-domed-coin/

[SidS]

13 minutes ago, westminstrel said:

Thanks for your thoughts on this. It’s good to have an educated perspective on this topic, as I admit I have no knowledge at all about this early coinage, and my opinions are purely subjective, based on my personal feelings about this coin. 🙂

For a brief overview with pictures of the two coins - see below.

You can clearly see that Thomas Simon's engraving skills were superior. Much like Benedetto Pistrucci's designs - George IV laureate head and George III bull head - technically superior but aesthetically less flattering. Whereas the Wyon George IV bust was less realistic but certainly kinder.

https://www.money.org/money-museum/virtual-exhibits/cromwell/case11

Scroll the picture sideways to get the second pic.

Edited February 27, 2023 by SidS

[Chrisplym]

2 hours ago, westminstrel said:

Regarding the production of the upcoming Petition Crown…

What will be truly exceptional and make the coin a little more worthy of a re-release will be if the Royal Mint mimics the concave / convex aspect of the original.

The Royal Mint did this recently with the Royal Albert Hall “domed” coin which they advertised as:

• The first UK coin to feature a convex surface, elevating the intricate details of the design
• Accurately recreates the unmistakable domed roof of the Royal Albert Hall within the miniature canvas of a coin

https://www.royalmint.com/our-coins/events/royal-albert-hall/the-150th-anniversary-of-the-royal-albert-hall-2021-uk-5-pound-silver-proof-domed-coin/

Do you believe that the Royal Mint will be replicate the edge lettering on the original Petition Crown?

[westminstrel]

1 hour ago, Chrisplym said:

Do you believe that the Royal Mint will be replicate the edge lettering on the original Petition Crown?

Yes. The Gazette Proclamation states that the edge will have the lettering.

The coin shall have a plain edge and in raised letters the inscription “THOMAS SIMON · MOST · HVMBLY · PRAYS · YOVR MAJESTY TO · COMPARE · THIS · HIS · TRYALL · PIECE · WITH · THE · DVTCH · AND · IF · MORE TRVLY · DRAWN & EMBOSS’D · MORE · GRACE: FVLLY · ORDER’D · AND · MORE · ACCVRATELY · ENGRAVEN · TO · RELEIVE · HIM ·”’.

[westminstrel]

I hope they stay 100% true to the original style - font, motifs, etc. - and don’t cut corners.

[westminstrel]

There’s some cool styling of the lettering and Charles II’s cypher amid the text. 

[Sc391]

Feb 27, the rumored release date of the next Great engravers coin, came and went.  Any speculation on a new date?

[Alz111]

[Simmoleon]

As I said a while back on one of the previous Great Engravers threads, this coin has a wonderful back story if you like engraver history, is a masterpiece for its day, has the rarity and is hugely historically important for British coin design but do I think it’s the right coin for this series, probably not. Una and The Three Graces have mythology and legendary design, this seems to be the sweet spot in my opinion. Also I think the Gothic first coin was stunning but the feeding frenzy off the Graces burnt too many fingers and many lesson were learnt which dampened the Gothics.

I’ll try and buy the 2oz silvers just so I have them but if I don’t get them I doubt I’ll be losing sleep.

[westminstrel]

 

5 hours ago, Sc391 said:

Feb 27, the rumored release date of the next Great engravers coin, came and went.  Any speculation on a new date?

It was never going to be released without them teasing and advertising it first. And having that page to “sign up” if you’re interested. 

[westminstrel]

25 minutes ago, Alz111 said:

I think most people are going to be wondering how exclusive and whether there 2-coin set means both sold  together or as a split release.

The latter is a double edged sword for the larger denominations.

The ideal approach would be a split release with a “subscription” for the second coin so those who get the first one are guaranteed the second.

[Paul]

If they are promoting in emails / web site 

Launch is not far away . .  . . . . 

Time to hoover down the sofa for last £1 coins  I still think I'm just going to buy the one side in gold. Can't stomach £10k + at the mo. Thank god for royal mint interest free tick 

[AndrewSL76]

The grading companies will have a headache on this one as the most important aspect is the edge. Handling a proof with this level of details on the edge also causes issues. Good luck to anyone grading these. For me they absolutely have to stay in their (expecting highly new designed capsule) capsules from the Mint. 

[apachebleu]

53 minutes ago, AndrewSL76 said:

The grading companies will have a headache on this one as the most important aspect is the edge. Handling a proof with this level of details on the edge also causes issues. Good luck to anyone grading these. For me they absolutely have to stay in their (expecting highly new designed capsule) capsules from the Mint. 

 

 Great point, also good luck appreciating the side engraving on a slabbed coin

[NumismaticNI]

20 hours ago, westminstrel said:

I think most people are going to be wondering how exclusive and whether there 2-coin set means both sold  together or as a split release.

The latter is a double edged sword for the larger denominations.

The ideal approach would be a split release with a “subscription” for the second coin so those who get the first one are guaranteed the second.

Both sold together in one Presentation box Is what I have been told by my account manager, £5500 say for the 2oz, that's now £11000 it'll cost anyone wishing to buy, £550 for the 5oz Silver there's £1100 will not cost anyone wishing to buy. It's a hefty wallet needed for this one. I would'nt like to be buying any bigger in the Gold range. 

[NumismaticNI]

I would expect 06th to be the release date, speculation only, not confirmed. 

[NumismaticNI]

It's going to break alot people collecting the set, with the double money hit with this one.

Positives, buyers will have no stress wondering if you'll get the second. Peace of mind the worse is over and another year to build the bank again. 

Negative, empty wallet after purchase, no dinner on the table when get home. 

 

[NumismaticNI]

Anyone willing the share the mintage numbers yet??

[westminstrel]

Question for the knowledgeable while we wait for more details…

Was the original Petition Crown ever struck in gold?