The collapse of the coin collector market

[Foster88]

7 hours ago, Bigmarc said:

It's the other side of a sovereign that gets me, St George slaying a dragon. I always think "was it a small lie that has got out of hand". 

That’s a very good point. It probably was a lie that got out of hand.

The coin that really stands out for me as ‘hypocrite’ and I know many people love it, but it’s the 1oz gold USA Buffallo.

It depicts a Native American surrounded by the words ‘liberty’. 😬

It’s a beautiful design, well designed and executed, but the word ‘liberty’.
It’s a big insult to Native Americans, liberty is the last thing they got.

Awkward or what.

Edited July 15, 2022 by Foster88

[Bigmarc]

8 minutes ago, Foster88 said:

It’s a big insult to Native Americans, liberty is the last thing they got.

Yes a straight up contradiction of what actually happened. Kind of makes our George with his dragon look a little tame. 

[Foster88]

11 minutes ago, Bigmarc said:

Yes a straight up contradiction of what actually happened. Kind of makes our George with his dragon look a little tame. 

I wouldn’t be surprised if the US Mint dropped the design in the not too distant future.

[GoldDiggerDave]

6 hours ago, Britannia47 said:

7 hours ago, Bigmarc said:

It's the other side of a sovereign that gets me, St George slaying a dragon. I always think "was it a small lie that has got out of hand". 

Please elaborate! Pistrucci’ s design is of special interest to me.

You would find it interesting what the original meaning of St George slaying the dragon represented to a certain group of people.  Though the tail quickly morphs into good conquering  evil (who's good and who's evil is the perspective of those telling the story)  The iconography and storytelling of slaying the beast has been around for centuries before George was born.  

[Bigmarc]

18 minutes ago, GoldDiggerDave said:

You would find it interesting what the original meaning of St George slaying the dragon represented to a certain group of people.  Though the tail quickly morphs into good conquering  evil (who's good and who's evil is the perspective of those telling the story)  The iconography and storytelling of slaying the beast has been around for centuries before George was born.  

Wasn't he sacrificed for not being accepting of pagan gods? Might have something to do with it. 

I tried to have a go at reading the Bible once. Many stories seem to be in a form of exaggerated tales with some kind of meaning hidden in there somewhere. Was a difficult read.

 

[GoldDiggerDave]

On 13/07/2022 at 23:37, fiveshotdon said:

I witnessed a huge shift of negative sentiment towards royalty when on a trip abroad just recently which surprised me how this could have changed so dramatically over the last 2 years since covid.

This got me thinking about a few things, will people want to collect proofs when King Charles takes over? With the peak age of collectors between the ages of 30-65 are these going to be replaced by younger collectors or are they more interested in digital assets.

Could we be approaching a peak and permanent decline in the coin collector market?

Art, wine, whisky, jewellery, coins, have been used a vehicles to store wealth over centuries, and I'm sure that everyone who ever lived thought they were the ones living at the peak time how would they know?  Suppose it's a psychological human outlook of getting old and a fear of losing what they have, life seamed better in the past and the future looks less promising.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Roy]

38 minutes ago, Bigmarc said:

I tried to have a go at reading the Bible once. Was a difficult read.

Were you on-call stuck in a hotel room at the time?

I recall a similar experience 😁

[Bigmarc]

1 hour ago, Roy said:

Were you on-call stuck in a hotel room at the time?

I recall a similar experience 😁

Similar. 

I was in Scotland for a month working on wind turbines. The ironic thing is, if it's to windy you can't go up them so spent a lot of time in hotel. 

[Britannia47]

4 hours ago, Foster88 said:

That’s a very good point. It probably was a lie that got out of hand.

The coin that really stands out for me as ‘hypocrite’ and I know many people love it, but it’s the 1oz gold USA Buffallo.

It depicts a Native American surrounded by the words ‘liberty’. 😬

It’s a beautiful design, well designed and executed, but the word ‘liberty’.
It’s a big insult to Native Americans, liberty is the last thing they got.

Awkward or what.

Some Native Americans have become very wealthy with casino ownership on the reservations, and by now have probably forgotten the hardship of their ancestors!  What irritates me with U.S. coinage is ..’in God we trust’.  That’s OK with the Bible-bashers, but not in a secular society. There is no GOD!!!

[dicker]

This is a Freakonomics type question.

I am not convinced that the collector market is collapsing or will collapse. There are a few things happening here:

- Decline of physical cash

- Ageing population

- Rise of wealth in the east

- RM is doing well creating a market for coins 

I have seen a few articles on the decline of coin collecting, but remain unconvinced that this will be the long term trend.

[Britannia47]

Decline of cash: Definitely a factor, hastened over the COVID period. Everyone using cards now.

But is the RM doing well?   Less demand for coins from home/overseas contracts. Is this the reason there’s a plethora of new  commemoratives - far too many IMO. As a collector I am not interested in artificially created themes such as Royalty birthdays, marriages, and deaths, Ageing or dead rock stars, Robin Hood, 007, Beatrice Potter, Mr men,…..

If the RM stopped all production tomorrow, it would have no affect whatsoever on my interest. There are plenty of coins left in the pot! I admit many would miss the excitement of the next issue. There’s nothing I can do about the addiction of others.😉

[Zhorro]

What I've noticed in just the past four years, is that the Royal Mint has vastly increased the number of releases and the number of variations in these releases.  Whilst some coins will be "hits", I fear a lot more will be "misses" and will lose the original premium paid and languish at scrap value.  I think collectors are becoming more selective in what they buy, and so, yes, I see a collapse in the market for some modern coins - increasingly new releases are not selling out despite the tiny mintage figures.

[harrygill111]

Agree @Zhorro there are an abundance of rarities! 

Edited July 15, 2022 by harrygill111

[SidS]

36 minutes ago, Zhorro said:

What I've noticed in just the past four years, is that the Royal Mint has vastly increased the number of releases and the number of variations in these releases.

I first noticed this in 1996.

[LawrenceChard]

19 hours ago, Foster88 said:

That’s a very good point. It probably was a lie that got out of hand.

The coin that really stands out for me as ‘hypocrite’ and I know many people love it, but it’s the 1oz gold USA Buffallo.

It depicts a Native American surrounded by the words ‘liberty’. 😬

It’s a beautiful design, well designed and executed, but the word ‘liberty’.
It’s a big insult to Native Americans, liberty is the last thing they got.

Awkward or what.

It's called propaganda!

😎

[AppleZippoandMetronome]

On 14/07/2022 at 12:21, LawrenceChard said:

There's a lot of good sense in all of that.

To misquote you slightly:

"We really do need to get back to hammering at home", or perhaps:

"We really do need to get back to hammering our own coins at home"

😎

Now thats something I'd enjoy having a go at!

[LawrenceChard]

41 minutes ago, AppleZippoandMetronome said:

Now thats something I'd enjoy having a go at!

All you need is a hammer and some coins!

😎

[Prophecy]

Mentioned this before (and haven't read this whole thread, forgive me) but I think it's only a matter of time before PM coins are seen as a 'right wing', 'colonialist' 'oppression' thing and that will put off a vast swathe of potential newcomers to both bullion and numismatic collecting. It also something that might be stoked by a non-Conservative government to add VAT and CGT to coins currently exempt. For cheap woke voter points.

also, I can't see Prince Charles lasting long as king - the establishment will get scared once countries start to pull out of the commonwealth en masse and he will abdicate for William.

also, the current and very recent wave of anti British monarchy sentiment in countries such as the Caribbean have been fomented by Russian and Chinese business interests forcing the sentiment behind the scenes and the narcissistic Megan Markle PR campaign. I can very much appreciate a native west Indian identifying more with her and her 'tales'. Whether you are for or against the monarchy in a practical sense, Britain is massively diminished on the world stage without it and that plays into the hands of those who we would all choose the monarchy over. And I for one don't care for the monarchy but happy for it to stick around until a better alternative appears...

Edited July 21, 2022 by Prophecy

[SidS]

PM coins and such probably do appeal more to the right-wing to be fair. Not necessarily in a 'Conservative' way but very much in a libertarian/individualistic freedom kind of way, which to my mind is very much at odds with socialism and 'social planning' and 'managed economy' kind of thinking - where you'll own nothing and be happy.

Edited July 21, 2022 by SidS

[Piperscoins]

I'm a swing voter, I would say it would be a massive mistake for a goverenment to Tax gold buying.  The Bank of England has only a small amount of Gold of its own though it holds a lot of gold,  With private individuals holding Gold, the UK has more Gold than other countries beleive.  The same happened with silver every time the silver price goes high massive amounts of sterling silver come onto the market.  

The population should be encouraged to hold Gold.  Its good for the individual and the Country. 

[LemmyMcGregor]

10 minutes ago, Piperscoins said:

I'm a swing voter, I would say it would be a massive mistake for a goverenment to Tax gold buying.  The Bank of England has only a small amount of Gold of its own though it holds a lot of gold,  With private individuals holding Gold, the UK has more Gold than other countries beleive.  The same happened with silver every time the silver price goes high massive amounts of sterling silver come onto the market.  

The population should be encouraged to hold Gold.  Its good for the individual and the Country. 

You are assuming that the government does what's best for us, or the nation.

[Piperscoins]

6 minutes ago, LemmyMcGregor said:

You are assuming that the government does what's best for us, or the nation.

Well yes.  But your sentence makes perfect sense.  

When did a government take the good of the population or nation into account rather than the voters.    

[LemmyMcGregor]

6 minutes ago, Piperscoins said:

Well yes.  But your sentence makes perfect sense.  

When did a government take the good of the population or nation into account rather than the voters.    

Not even that, hence me highlighting in the specific "Its good for the individual". What we have observed in recent year is a raise in socialist policies putting the collective above the individual, as such, one could assume that their goal is not the good of the individual, as usual when you do things "for the greater good" individuals end up sacrificed, take Covid policies and how our own liberties were sacrificed to save a Statal entity, the NHS.

More so, many policies have made Britain completely dependant on foreign goods, for example, agricultural policies made us dependant on foreign food, green policies made us dependant on foreign industrial production and energy policies have made dependant on foreign energy, you can't be a sovereign country when you are dependant on external supplies, as the moment you attempt to hold a position your dependance could be used against you, meaning that I disagree also with them doing what's best for the country.

Put it this way, I agree with what you said, my argument is that this government doesn't seem to hold the same values you suggest.

[apachebleu]

On 20/07/2022 at 21:04, Prophecy said:

Mentioned this before (and haven't read this whole thread, forgive me) but I think it's only a matter of time before PM coins are seen as a 'right wing', 'colonialist' 'oppression' thing and that will put off a vast swathe of potential newcomers to both bullion and numismatic collecting. It also something that might be stoked by a non-Conservative government to add VAT and CGT to coins currently exempt. For cheap woke voter points.

also, I can't see Prince Charles lasting long as king - the establishment will get scared once countries start to pull out of the commonwealth en masse and he will abdicate for William.

also, the current and very recent wave of anti British monarchy sentiment in countries such as the Caribbean have been fomented by Russian and Chinese business interests forcing the sentiment behind the scenes and the narcissistic Megan Markle PR campaign. I can very much appreciate a native west Indian identifying more with her and her 'tales'. Whether you are for or against the monarchy in a practical sense, Britain is massively diminished on the world stage without it and that plays into the hands of those who we would all choose the monarchy over. And I for one don't care for the monarchy but happy for it to stick around until a better alternative appears...

I'm not sure about all of that however I have held similar views for a while on your first point I.e. stigmatising holding PMs. With the push to cashless societies and digital currencies with the associated ability to monitor people and delete their wealth at a stroke holding metals is inconvenient.

 It would also be an easy way to generate tax by slapping vat on gold.

 What's scary is that all you need to do is remind people it's only the filthy rich that have gold and we can't be letting them dodge more taxes....of course that's garbage as evidenced on this forum however the average person on the street generally can't see past a headline in the sun and (especially in these times) would like to stick a blow against the wealthy.

 Obviously the whole time the really wealthy and decision makers will be immune to this sentiment and laughing at us all acting like crabs in a bucket

[SidS]

2 hours ago, apachebleu said:

...and laughing at us all acting like crabs in a bucket

I did wonder why I've been walking sideways of late.