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Red v Yellow Colour Gold Sovereigns - Silver v Copper Alloy Content


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@LawrenceChard I admire you for taking both the time and trouble to raise this with RM. However, as you have said in your previous posts, for them to change the composition of the sovereign now would be to admit they made a mistake.

Like many here, I prefer the true gold look of my older sovereigns.

Maybe a leopard will change its spots or maybe the RM will change the composition of the sovereign with the change of monarch.

I hope they’ve taken your advice on board, I’d love to see the 2022 sovereign in its true gold colour (alloyed with silver).

Maybe, if many don’t like the colour of the 2022 sovereign but will still buy it, they’ll be thinking like  D i c k Emery when they see it...

”Oh you are awful, but I like you.” 😂

(Now he’s wayyyy before my time)

Edited by Foster88
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5 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

Any bets?

I bet No !  It won't happen. Silver won't be used.

Reason:

Current Spot price of Silver vs Copper (per kg)

Silver 728USD Vs Copper 9.39USD 

So silver is currently over 77 times more expensive than copper.

Given that most organisations are run by "Bean Counters", a simple economics dictates that silver won't be used as it affects their bottom line.

Having said that, I would be happy to be proven wrong by RM. But then again, I'm not holding my breath!  😊

Edited by Happypanda88
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8 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

It is almost universally agreed that gold sovereigns, together with multiples and fractions would look better yellow by adding some silver to the alloy, rather than the modern coppery red colour created by using only copper in the alloy, and no silver.

I have frequently commented on it, and produced XRF alloy analysis as evidence that there was always silver in older sovereigns, and that the absence of silver, producing red gold coins is a recent (since about 1957) aberration.

There are many threads on TSF which mention this, and also infomation and blog pages on the Chards website.

On Thursday 23rd September, I wrote an e-mail to Anne Jessop and two other members of the Royal Mint management team, stating the case for adding silver, and doing so as early as in the anticipated 2022 Royal Coat of Arms sovereigns.

I was pleasantly surprised to get a response as early as the next day, but it was only from one of the recipients letting me know they had forwarded it to a more appropriate member of their team. Following that, I had been expecting a substantive response shortly afterwards, even if it was to say "no", or "thanks". It has been almost three weeks now, and a thought just occurred to me, that the delay and absence of response may just be because I have hit a proverbial nail on the head, and that they are about to issue yellow gold sovereigns with some silver content, in which case, they would not wish to pre-empt their embargo or announcement. Or perhaps they are mulling over my suggestion...

Any bets?

I hope you are right!

But no bet. I have seen the Royal Mints past couple years tactics of selling as much gold and silver possible for the cheapest possible way. I wouldn't be surprised if they have investigated the option adding Rice Krispies and Play-Doh to the alloy to lower production-cost. 

2022 Sovereign would be yellow/blue/green/red-ish if it would mean lower production costs and more profit....

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Agree completely @LawrenceChard.  I genuinely think the Bullion Sovereign would be purchased by more people if it was gold in colour and had a better strike.  
 

Best

Dicker

Edited by dicker
Typo

Not my circus, not my monkeys

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7 hours ago, Happypanda88 said:

I bet No !  It won't happen. Silver won't be used.

Reason:

Current Spot price of Silver vs Copper (per kg)

Silver 728USD Vs Copper 9.39USD 

So silver is currently over 77 times more expensive than copper.

Given that most organisations are run by "Bean Counters", a simple economics dictates that silver won't be used as it affects their bottom line.

On a macro level, this makes perfect sense. However on a silver per sovereign level, the price could be easily absorbed. I haven't done the sums, but if it wouldn't amount to more than a penny or two per coin. An extra fiver per sovereign would represent even more healthy profit for the RM and I expect we would all happily pay it. 

You could argue that RM has been missing a trick. @LawrenceChard could be on to something...

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8 hours ago, Foster88 said:

@LawrenceChard I admire you for taking both the time and trouble to raise this with RM. However, as you have said in your previous posts, for them to change the composition of the sovereign now would be to admit they made a mistake.

Like many here, I prefer the true gold look of my older sovereigns. Since this broad topic was brought to my attention last year about the ‘coppery’ colour of the newer sovereigns, I looked at my older gold, when I got to access it.

I looked at the only antique 22ct gold ring that I own which I wear and it looks ‘gold’. I presume it is alloyed with silver.

Maybe a leopard will change its spots or maybe the RM will change the composition of the sovereign with the change of monarch.

I hope they’ve taken your advice on board, I’d love to see the 2022 sovereign in its true gold colour (alloyed with silver).

Maybe, if many don’t like the colour of the 2022 sovereign but will still buy it, they’ll be thinking like  D i c k Emery when they see it...

”Oh you are awful, but I like you.” 😂

(Now he’s wayyyy before my time)

Did you have to space out D i c k Emery because TSF would have censored **** Emery?

I believe he could be quite abrasive.😎

Chards

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16 hours ago, Happypanda88 said:

I bet No !  It won't happen. Silver won't be used.

Reason:

Current Spot price of Silver vs Copper (per kg)

Silver 728USD Vs Copper 9.39USD 

So silver is currently over 77 times more expensive than copper.

Given that most organisations are run by "Bean Counters", a simple economics dictates that silver won't be used as it affects their bottom line.

Having said that, I would be happy to be proven wrong by RM. But then again, I'm not holding my breath!  😊

Yes, I understand that, and have commented previously on the extra cost, but with a Gold:Silver ratio of around 75-80, even if the RM used 17 ppt of silver (0 copper), the silver cost would be 0.02266% of the value of the gold, and with gold at say £1300 per ounce, would cost about 7 pence per coin. The mode amount of silver in older sovereigns is about 3 to 4 ppt, not 17 ppt, so the extra cost would be about 1.5 pence per coin, minus the small cost of the copper it replaced.

I feel sure that most collectors would be hapy to pay 7 pence more for proof sovereigns with 17 ppt silver , and investors would not baulk at paying 1.5 pence extra per coin with 3-4 ppt silver. It might even increase RM sales and popularity, therefore paying for itself.

But, it still might not happen! 😎

I got my maths wrong, please see correction.

Edited by LawrenceChard

Chards

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3 hours ago, Jvw said:

I hope you are right!

But no bet. I have seen the Royal Mints past couple years tactics of selling as much gold and silver possible for the cheapest possible way. I wouldn't be surprised if they have investigated the option adding Rice Krispies and Play-Doh to the alloy to lower production-cost. 

2022 Sovereign would be yellow/blue/green/red-ish if it would mean lower production costs and more profit....

Doug, our almost tame photographer, sent me this a few days ago:

_FBW0356.thumb.jpg.72b9f33ce4d9889553d6fb0b22f09eb1.jpg

Perhaps he is undertaking secret research for the Royal Mint!😎

 

Chards

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9 hours ago, MickB said:

The Royal Mint could possibly make them with silver for proof coins only. Bullion just being bullion could then stay the same.

Or use 17 ppt silver in the proofs, and 3-4 ppt for the bullion ones.

Extra cost would be about 7 pence for the proofs, and 1.5 pence for the bullion versions.

I got the maths wrong, please see correction.

Edited by LawrenceChard

Chards

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5 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

Yes, I understand that, and have commented previously on the extra cost, but with a Gold:Silver ratio of around 75-80, even if the RM used 17 ppt of silver (0 copper), the silver cost would be 0.02266% of the value of the gold, and with gold at say £1300 per ounce, would cost about 7 pence per coin. The mode amount of silver in older sovereigns is about 3 to 4 ppt, not 17 ppt, so the extra cost would be about 1.5 pence per coin, minus the small cost of the copper it replaced.

I feel sure that most collectors would be hapy to pay 7 pence more for proof sovereigns with 17 ppt silver , and investors would not baulk at paying 1.5 pence extra per coin with 3-4 ppt silver. It might even increase RM sales and popularity, therefore paying for itself.

But, it still might not happen! 😎

The figure I have is an extra 35 pence per sovereign at today's spot price.

My calculation is based on weight of a sovereign at 7.98g, with pure gold content of 7.32g which gives the remaining 0.66g as other metal(s). 

Assuming that 0.66g of silver is used for new sovereigns, then that's around 35 pence at today's spot price of silver.

The extra cost and amount of silver used per coin may not sound a lot.  But a mintage of 500,000 sovereigns (including halves, 2 pounds and 5 pounds) would mean an extra 300kg of silver. (The most recent sovereign mintage figures are not available so I'm plucking a figure based on a popular year i.e. 2012 which had a mintage exceeding half a million).

I think the RM management would rather used those extra kilos of silver for special editions / proofs where they can yield upto 7-9 times the value instead of charging a couple of quid extra per sovereign. 

At the end of the day, RM is a business so I wouldn't blame them for wanting to maximise their profits. Besides, have we not seen them cut corners on quality control of bullion coins lately !   LOL  !!! 😁

Afterall, there aren't a limitless supply of silver above or below ground which is why I believe RM won't be using silver for sovereigns.

 

 

Edited by Happypanda88
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50 minutes ago, Happypanda88 said:

The figure I have is an extra 35 pence per sovereign at today's spot price.

My calculation is based on weight of a sovereign at 7.98g, with pure gold content of 7.32g which gives the remaining 0.66g as other metal(s). 

Assuming that 0.66g of silver is used for new sovereigns, then that's around 35 pence at today's spot price of silver.

The extra cost and amount of silver used per coin may not sound a lot.  But a mintage of 500,000 sovereigns (including halves, 2 pounds and 5 pounds) would mean an extra 300kg of silver. (The most recent sovereign mintage figures are not available so I'm plucking a figure based on a popular year i.e. 2012 which had a mintage exceeding half a million).

I think the RM management would rather used those extra kilos of silver for special editions / proofs where they can yield upto 7-9 times the value instead of charging a couple of quid extra per sovereign. 

At the end of the day, RM is a business so I wouldn't blame them for wanting to maximise their profits. Besides, have we not seen them cut corners on quality control of bullion coins lately !   LOL  !!! 😁

Afterall, there aren't a limitless supply of silver above or below ground which is why I believe RM won't be using silver for sovereigns.

 

 

You don't have to put .66g of silver into a sovereign to get a nice yellow gold, it can be much less. Take a look at the yellow gold £5 coin and it's alloy composition in the link:

There's only 1.2% (12ppt) silver in this alloy, so a similar composition for a sovereign is 7.98g x 0.012 = 0.096g of silver. That's about 5p worth of silver per sovereign, the rest of the non gold content can be made up with copper. And you don't have to use so much silver:

6 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

The mode amount of silver in older sovereigns is about 3 to 4 ppt, not 17 ppt, so the extra cost would be about 1.5 pence per coin

 

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8 hours ago, Thelonerangershorse said:

At the risk of being completly banned from the Forum, can I just say, I happen to like the current colour.

Actually I agree 100%. However it's sad to hear about the poor quality strike. I will probably still purchase a modern one to add to my modest collection.

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2 hours ago, Happypanda88 said:

The figure I have is an extra 35 pence per sovereign at today's spot price.

My calculation is based on weight of a sovereign at 7.98g, with pure gold content of 7.32g which gives the remaining 0.66g as other metal(s). 

Assuming that 0.66g of silver is used for new sovereigns, then that's around 35 pence at today's spot price of silver.

The extra cost and amount of silver used per coin may not sound a lot.  But a mintage of 500,000 sovereigns (including halves, 2 pounds and 5 pounds) would mean an extra 300kg of silver. (The most recent sovereign mintage figures are not available so I'm plucking a figure based on a popular year i.e. 2012 which had a mintage exceeding half a million).

I think the RM management would rather used those extra kilos of silver for special editions / proofs where they can yield upto 7-9 times the value instead of charging a couple of quid extra per sovereign. 

At the end of the day, RM is a business so I wouldn't blame them for wanting to maximise their profits. Besides, have we not seen them cut corners on quality control of bullion coins lately !   LOL  !!! 😁

Afterall, there aren't a limitless supply of silver above or below ground which is why I believe RM won't be using silver for sovereigns.

 

Thank you for spotting my maths error. I was being lazy, and didn't check it, probably because my maths is usually good.

Re-working it, I more or less agree with you, and get 36 pence per coin for 17 ppt silver, therefore about 7 pence for 3-4 ppt silver.

The weight of a gold sovereign is closer to 7.99 than 7.98 (don't rely on Royal Mint information).

Even at these corrected figures. it should still be well worth the Mint adding some silver.

Perth Mint use 17 ppt silver in their sovereigns, but the (mode) average figure for older (pre QEII) British sovereigns is about 3 to 4 parts per thousand, so I would suggest:

Use 17 ppt silver for the proofs, and 3-4 ppt for the bullion coins.

The amount of silver above ground would be more than sufficient to deal with this very slight increase. I don't believe most of the silver shortage hype and propaganda.

 

Edited by LawrenceChard

Chards

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9 hours ago, TheShinyStuff said:

On a macro level, this makes perfect sense. However on a silver per sovereign level, the price could be easily absorbed. I haven't done the sums, but if it wouldn't amount to more than a penny or two per coin. An extra fiver per sovereign would represent even more healthy profit for the RM and I expect we would all happily pay it. 

You could argue that RM has been missing a trick. @LawrenceChard could be on to something...

 

Chards

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8 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

Yes, I understand that, and have commented previously on the extra cost, but with a Gold:Silver ratio of around 75-80, even if the RM used 17 ppt of silver (0 copper), the silver cost would be 0.02266% of the value of the gold, and with gold at say £1300 per ounce, would cost about 7 pence per coin. The mode amount of silver in older sovereigns is about 3 to 4 ppt, not 17 ppt, so the extra cost would be about 1.5 pence per coin, minus the small cost of the copper it replaced.

I feel sure that most collectors would be hapy to pay 7 pence more for proof sovereigns with 17 ppt silver , and investors would not baulk at paying 1.5 pence extra per coin with 3-4 ppt silver. It might even increase RM sales and popularity, therefore paying for itself.

But, it still might not happen! 😎

Correction:

 

Chards

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2 hours ago, Booky586 said:

You don't have to put .66g of silver into a sovereign to get a nice yellow gold, it can be much less. Take a look at the yellow gold £5 coin and it's alloy composition in the link:

There's only 1.2% (12ppt) silver in this alloy, so a similar composition for a sovereign is 7.98g x 0.012 = 0.096g of silver. That's about 5p worth of silver per sovereign, the rest of the non gold content can be made up with copper. And you don't have to use so much silver:

 

I got my maths wrong, see correction, should be about 7 pence, or 36 pence for 83 ppt silver.

Edited by LawrenceChard

Chards

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5 minutes ago, LawrenceChard said:

I got my maths wrong, see correction, should be about 7 pence, or 36 pence for 17 ppt silver.

I think you got it right first time.

The calculation I've used for the cost of silver content at 17ppt (parts per thousand):

Weight of full sovereign is 7.98g x .017 (17ppt) = 0.136g of silver

Todays spot price is £0.54/g

total cost of silver per sovereign is .54 x .136 = £0.073, say 7p.

I don't know how you're arriving at 36p, are you calculating the copper content as silver too? Please correct me if I've got my maths wrong too 😀

Edited by Booky586
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1 hour ago, Booky586 said:

I think you got it right first time.

The calculation I've used for the cost of silver content at 17ppt (parts per thousand):

Weight of full sovereign is 7.98g x .017 (17ppt) = 0.136g of silver

Todays spot price is £0.54/g

total cost of silver per sovereign is .54 x .136 = £0.073, say 7p.

I don't know how you're arriving at 36p, are you calculating the copper content as silver too? Please correct me if I've got my maths wrong too 😀

OK, I'd better start again, third time lucky?:

Sovereign gross weight approx 7.99 grams (7.98805182664527 to be precise, not 7.98 which the RM quotes)

22ct = 22/24 gold, therefore balance = 2/24 = 1/12 = 0.66583333 grams.

Spot silver = £0.5342 per gram

0.66583333 x £0.5342 = 0.35568816

The above assumes 91.66% gold 8.34% silver.

(For some reason, I have been quoting 17 ppt silver/copper, and where I got that from I don't know!)

I have ignored copper value and cost thoughout, as I think it is insignificant. If I am wrong, then anyone is welcome to further correct me.

But for 3 to 4 parts per thousand silver (0.3% to 0.4%) , the silver cost works out about 1.5 to 2 pence per coin. This proportion of silver is enough to give a pleasant yellow colour rather than the modern 8.34% copper givng a red colour.

For the bullion version, 3 to 4 ppt of silver would be more than good enough.

The 1887-L London Mint Victoria Jubilee sovereigns contained about 12 ppt (1.2%) of silver, and they are noticeably yellow, so even those would only cost about 5 pence per coin extra.

 


 

 

Edited by LawrenceChard

Chards

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10 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

The amount of silver above ground would be more than sufficient to deal with this very slight increase.

I do not disagree with you on this. To put it simply, is there a business case as to whether RM should use silver in sovereigns ? I trust they would have evaluated this 🤔

Bear in mind that RM has an alternative product offering in 1/4 oz 999.9 Gold Britannia which is similar in price and dimensions.

 

10 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

I don't believe most of the silver shortage hype and propaganda.

Just think how much more business and revenue you could have generated for all those years had you hyped up PMs and sold it to punters !  😬🤗

Edited by Happypanda88
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5 hours ago, Happypanda88 said:

I do not disagree with you on this. To put it simply, is there a business case as to whether RM should use silver in sovereigns ? I trust they would have evaluated this 🤔

Bear in mind that RM has an alternative product offering in 1/4 oz 999.9 Gold Britannia which is similar in price and dimensions.

 

Just think how much more business and revenue you could have generated for all those years had you hyped up PMs and sold it to punters !  😬🤗

I suspect that the RM are not aware that sovereigns were normally yellow because they contained some silver, and when production of them restarted in 1957, nobody thought about it. Since then they have just blindly followed the example set in 1957.

I'm sure you are right, and many of our competitors do that. It is very common practice by American dealers, but I prefer to give sound honest advice, repeat business, and a good reputation for honesty and integrity.

I do notice many examples of not just hype, but dishonesty, misleading advertising and practises, and cynical marketing, which I do comment on, but try to do so with some caution, for various reasons.

😎

Chards

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@LawrenceChard

Does my memory fail me (again!) or have I seen you post a comparison of the XRF results of different eras of sovereigns?

You have stated that the mint started producing only gold/copper alloys in 1957, ba'ht any silver, but George v sovs seem equally "red" to my eyes. Any data?

Profile picture with thanks to Carl Vernon

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43 minutes ago, sovereignsteve said:

@LawrenceChard

Does my memory fail me (again!) or have I seen you post a comparison of the XRF results of different eras of sovereigns?

You have stated that the mint started producing only gold/copper alloys in 1957, ba'ht any silver, but George v sovs seem equally "red" to my eyes. Any data?

Sure!

By request: https://www.chards.co.uk/blog/analysis-of-alloy-content-of-gold-sovereigns/180

Specsavers! 😎

Chards

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