NEW St. George and the Dragon coin with Garter inscription

[westminstrel]

Sexy new coin but not sure what it really is.

PROCLAMATION:

For the obverse impression Our effigy with the inscription “· CHARLES III · D · G · REX · F · D · 10 POUNDS ·” and the date of the year,

and for the reverse a depiction of St George, armed, sitting on horseback, attacking a dragon with a sword, and a broken spear upon the ground with the inscription “HONI · SOIT · QUI · MAL · Y · PENSE”. The coin shall have a plain edge and in excuse letters the inscription “DECUS ET TUTAMEN · ANNO REGNI II ·”.’

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/notice/4503115

DENOMINATIONS:

- Gold 5kg, 2kg, 1kg, 5oz, 2oz

- Silver 1kg, 5oz, 2oz and 10oz piedfort

 

MY COMMENTS:

Can’t be a Sovereign because of the specification of the denomination in the coins, their weights, and the variations in metal.

Also not sure if it is part of the Great Engravers series, because William Wyon’s St. George and the Dragon does not have the garter inscription (the circumscription is TREU UND FEST), nor does it have the edge inscription, as far as I know. The Garter design is by Benedetto Pistrucci (more below).

Finally, ANNO REGNI II means the Second Year of the Monarch’s Reign, meaning (to be very literal) September 2023 to August 2024 of King Charles’ reign.

Benedetto Pistrucci’s 1820 £2 pattern Sovereign does have an edge inscription of DECUS ET TUTAMEN • ANNO REGNI LX which was the 60th year of the Reign of King George III in 1820; however to complicate matters, this pattern coin does NOT have the Garter inscription. The 1819/19 Crown by Benedetto Pistrucci does have both the Garter and edge inscriptions.

So, my deduction is perhaps that this coin does after all continue the Great Engravers series (or maybe the Royal Mint finally caught on to my idea and is doing a series of St. George and the Dragon designs!), and they’ve combined the £1 Sovereign’s Garter design with the edge inscription from the £2 Sovereign to come up with a representative sample of Benedetto Pistrucci’s work. 

Edited December 23, 2023 by westminstrel

[paulmerton]

Very interesting  

[Britannia47]

4 hours ago, paulmerton said:

Very interesting  

Exactly what I was thinking!

The Pistrucci ‘George & Dragon’ has never been seen on a gold coin other than a sovereign!  So is this the beginning of the end of this awful 22ct gold used on todays sovereigns?

Probably not, because the proposed sizes and specs are in excess of the current 5 sizes. However, I see this as a step in the right direction to use 9999 gold throughout. I personally don’t care about ‘tradition’ in this case. The RM departed from tradition itself by using ‘red gold’ after the Gillicks. Today, durability for circulation is not an issue. I would really like to see a sovereign minted in 9999 gold, looking very similar to a 1/4 oz Brit. or QB perhaps. A few years ago I was shot down on TSF for daring to suggest it!  Feel free to add more ‘flak’ in my general direction…..a great supporter of the Sovereign.😢

Edited December 23, 2023 by Britannia47

[JamesH]

Size of those gold coins 😱

[AgCoyote]

I thought these were going to be in 1/4 and 1 ounce for gold. Seems like they'll be much larger.

[SeverinDigsSovereigns]

Sounds like ouncer versions of the 2017

[SeverinDigsSovereigns]

7 hours ago, Britannia47 said:

Exactly what I was thinking!

The Pistrucci ‘George & Dragon’ has never been seen on a gold coin other than a sovereign!  So is this the beginning of the end of this awful 22ct gold used on todays sovereigns?

Probably not, because the proposed sizes and specs are in excess of the current 5 sizes. However, I see this as a step in the right direction to use 9999 gold throughout. I personally don’t care about ‘tradition’ in this case. The RM departed from tradition itself by using ‘red gold’ after the Gillicks. Today, durability for circulation is not an issue. I would really like to see a sovereign minted in 9999 gold, looking very similar to a 1/4 oz Brit. or QB perhaps. A few years ago I was shot down on TSF for daring to suggest it!  Feel free to add more ‘flak’ in my general direction…..a great supporter of the Sovereign.😢

I suggest bringing back silky 22ct yellow gold.... they just won't listen though

[westminstrel]

1 hour ago, SeverinDigsSovereigns said:

Sounds like ouncer versions of the 2017

Yes pretty much; with the addition of the edge inscription.

[westminstrel]

@ChrisSilverThis could be moved to GPM. Didn’t realize I posted it under Gold. 🙂

[ChrisSilver]

29 minutes ago, westminstrel said:

@ChrisSilverThis could be moved to GPM. Didn’t realize I posted it under Gold. 🙂

Sure, topic moved. Next time please use the 3 dots and report so that it can be seen by all moderators etc and can be moved asap if I’m not around.  

[westminstrel]

1 hour ago, ChrisSilver said:

Sure, topic moved. Next time please use the 3 dots and report so that it can be seen by all moderators etc and can be moved asap if I’m not around.  

Oh thanks for the housekeeping and that bit of guidance. I’ve never used the report feature before so didn’t relaize it could be used for this purpose. Thanks! 🙂

[Allgoldcoins]

On 23/12/2023 at 14:55, westminstrel said:

Sexy new coin but not sure what it really is.

PROCLAMATION:

For the obverse impression Our effigy with the inscription “· CHARLES III · D · G · REX · F · D · 10 POUNDS ·” and the date of the year,

and for the reverse a depiction of St George, armed, sitting on horseback, attacking a dragon with a sword, and a broken spear upon the ground with the inscription “HONI · SOIT · QUI · MAL · Y · PENSE”. The coin shall have a plain edge and in excuse letters the inscription “DECUS ET TUTAMEN · ANNO REGNI II ·”.’

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/notice/4503115

DENOMINATIONS:

- Gold 5kg, 2kg, 1kg, 5oz, 2oz

- Silver 1kg, 5oz, 2oz and 10oz piedfort

 

MY COMMENTS:

Can’t be a Sovereign because of the specification of the denomination in the coins, their weights, and the variations in metal.

Also not sure if it is part of the Great Engravers series, because William Wyon’s St. George and the Dragon does not have the garter inscription (the circumscription is TREU UND FEST), nor does it have the edge inscription, as far as I know. The Garter design is by Benedetto Pistrucci (more below).

Finally, ANNO REGNI II means the Second Year of the Monarch’s Reign, meaning (to be very literal) September 2023 to August 2024 of King Charles’ reign.

Benedetto Pistrucci’s 1820 £2 pattern Sovereign does have an edge inscription of DECUS ET TUTAMEN • ANNO REGNI LX which was the 60th year of the Reign of King George III in 1820; however to complicate matters, this pattern coin does NOT have the Garter inscription. The 1819/19 Crown by Benedetto Pistrucci does have both the Garter and edge inscriptions.

So, my deduction is perhaps that this coin does after all continue the Great Engravers series (or maybe the Royal Mint finally caught on to my idea and is doing a series of St. George and the Dragon designs!), and they’ve combined the £1 Sovereign’s Garter design with the edge inscription from the £2 Sovereign to come up with a representative sample of Benedetto Pistrucci’s work. 

I am pretty confident this is the next coin in the great engravers series. It looks to be based on the Crown with edge inscription relating to 2nd year of Charles III reign.

The gold coins are 999.9 gold and the big givaway is that there is no gold 1 ounce version 👍

Edited December 26, 2023 by Allgoldcoins

[westminstrel]

15 hours ago, Allgoldcoins said:

I am pretty confident this is the next coin in the great engravers series. It looks to be based on the Crown with edge inscription relating to 2nd year of Charles III reign.

The gold coins are 999.9 gold and the big givaway is that there is no gold 1 ounce version 👍

Absolutely! 😊 I think you’ve hit the nail on the head. 

[Sovhead]

A 5kg gold coin diameter 175mm 😳

Can’t wait to see that monster.

[Stuntman]

In my opinion, it looks like it's going to be based on the design of the 1818-1820 crowns of George III and will indeed be the next in the Great Engravers series.

This design:

https://en.numista.com/catalogue/pieces13172.html

I think it'll look lovely in proof silver and proof gold.  

[pmbug]

Sounds very cool!  I look forward to seeing some photos.  So these will have nominal legal tender face values?  Does the UK have some anti-counterfeiting laws like the USA (where the US Secret Service is supposed to investigate counterfeiting of legal tender coin)?

[westminstrel]

The big question is whether it will be worth buying these at release.

Unless the mintages are super low, it is almost a certainty that these will be overpriced at issue, and available much below issue price a year or so down the line.

IMO the days of FOMO buying are behind us.

[Agaupl]

This is definitely going to be a cracker of a design .. agree with @westminstrel that buying st release will be down to mintage. But tbh if the design is good enough I’m game for a long hold . Got to be best in gold this one. 

[westminstrel]

The only “problem” is the coin is going to be very similar to the 2017 £5 Proof and £5 BU (of which the Reverse was Proof-like).

The exception of course will be the 2oz weight, the 99.99c gold, and the edge lettering.

Really does come down to mintage.

[Agaupl]

1 hour ago, westminstrel said:

The only “problem” is the coin is going to be very similar to the 2017 £5 Proof and £5 BU (of which the Reverse was Proof-like).

The exception of course will be the 2oz weight, the 99.99c gold, and the edge lettering.

Really does come down to mintage.

The 2017 £5 sov? I’d feel sad if they didn’t use the wyon design  but as you say the garter doesn’t match  

B.P would of course count as a great engraver even if well represented, so are we thinking it’s the 1817 design writ large? That would be a bit sad tbh. And yeah 2017 sov holders would suffer. 
not sad in the quality of the design, that’s impeccable. Just sad in ingenuity I suppose. 

Edited December 28, 2023 by Agaupl

[Stuntman]

If this new coin is effectively a restrike of the 1818-20 crown coins (not sovereigns), the engraver is Pistrucci anyway. It's not a Wyon design.

The design is subtly different to the 1817-1820 sovereigns and so I don't think it will be too much of an issue for holders of the 2017 5-sovereign coins.  They are possibly aimed at different types of collector.

I'd love one of these new coins, but this series is too rich for my blood in gold and I also haven't gone for any of them in silver.  However, I think this is the second-nicest design so far (Una & the Lion being easily the nicest).

[ak74]

Register your interest link

https://www.royalmint.com/great-engravers/george-and-the-dragon/?utm_campaign=2024-01-com-great-engravers-pistrucci&utm_medium=email&_hsmi=288871802&_hsenc=p2ANqtz-_Hy26jdgukB6__K0xdGJAJST36BoVX0H9d8XBo7OnwR16znve3NsVVBJwkSfg5_O9SHW8nIBilC4SDhenjTxDbKqeagg&utm_content=288871802&utm_

[Paul]

Oooooohhhhhhhh my credit account with RM is paid off, shall I go for the 2oz gold and hope for the best/gamble on it 🤞 🤔

[apachebleu]

1 minute ago, Paul said:

Oooooohhhhhhhh my credit account with RM is paid off, shall I go for the 2oz gold and hope for the best/gamble on it 🤞 🤔

 It's a gamble thats for sure.

 I honestly don't get it. The other great engravers made sense to me as they are tributes to classic coins you rarely see and i loved the first few. 

 But if I want this design  I can just buy a soverign 

[Paul]

6 minutes ago, apachebleu said:

 It's a gamble thats for sure.

 I honestly don't get it. The other great engravers made sense to me as they are tributes to classic coins you rarely see and i loved the first few. 

 But if I want this design  I can just buy a soverign 

My thinking I can buy a 2oz big sovereign. Well it's not really a five sovereign. 

It's not really anything is it ? 

It's not really nowt nor summit as my Geordie granny would have said

were there not trial pieces or none accepted sovereign designs that made it to trial but not to official?!

sorry haven't got access to my books or web as out on just my phone