kimchi

Where else would a crook on ebay try to selld them?

I absolutely agree❗️

This could signal the end of 'professionally' graded coins as a means to speculate. Historically a 'perfect' coin was considered the holy grail and rarely (sometimes never) obtainable. Nowadays people have come to expect perfection for anything released by a mint. The term 'proof' has always been used as a description of the way the coin is struck - not as a guarantee of a perfect coin. A proof coin is (supposedly) the best that a mint can achieve at that time, under those conditions - nothing more.
The true value of slabbing is in identifying genuines coins - something i imagine the whole business was based upon. The use of grading companies as a tool for speculators has made the whole business, for me, appear a bit grubby.
Each to their own obviously, but it has always left me scratching my head at people who will pay huge premiums for a 70 graded coin over a 68/69 graded coin. Take them out of the slab and i would defy the majority of people to distinguish between them. Yet are paying hundreds or thousands of pounds for two digits printed on a slip of paper.....
When is a '70' not a '70' ?- could be the next day.
 

This has opened a real can of worms with NGC for me.
To take the milking alone: they've graded some very highly (it may be the minimum expected, but 69 is still a very good grade) despite the milking. But there is no qualification. It's their subjective opinion about 'eye appeal'. The worst milked ones got the worst grades, but to what extent did they disregard the milking on the better examples? Would any have been 70s otherwise? The (presently) unmilked Yale at 70 suggests very possibly, and a reasonable conclusion is that no milked coin can get a 70 - but it is just guesswork.
If they give a milked coin a 69 (and the photo can be checked on the register) it leaves the secondary market stumped if the milking gets worse. At what point would/should a 69 drop a grade or two? It's all subjective at NGC on this in he first place, so will be between buyers and sellers (and between different buyers and sellers).
This is the problem with modern proof silver, especially from certain Mints, and having it graded. NGC is not helping here by grading milked coins without clarification.
I have a milked MS69 Griffin, I'll have to check the register to see if it was milked when graded.
 

@kimchi Re PCGS grading I actually bought a PR 70 1oz silver QB unicorn which had a milkspot, I did send it back as they didn't disclose it & it was on the reverse, if it was on the obverse at the time I would have kept it. So I don't think they are any better than NGC re milkspot issues.
 

For me this begs the question 'has anyone with a coin (ideally a 70) which spots after grading resubmitted it (in its original holder) for re-grading, and if so what was the result?'.
I've never seen this done, obviously you would be losing money on grading twice, but I think it'd be a very useful exercise for us collectors.
This has been a very useful thread. Without being able to check the photos at NGC (understandable for the OP's privacy they have hidden the slab details) it looks like NGC are saying that a spotted coin can grade (at least - ?) as high as a 69!!!
This should be very big news in the coin community, and lead to further research (comparison with PCGS etc) imho.

Those attempting to post affiliate referrals and link may wish to have a read through the forum T&Cs.  I know most people just accept without reading (I'm guilty of this too).
7.9. Affiliate links
7.9.1 It is against forum rules for members to use affiliate links on the forum. It is also against the forum rules to suggest to members to private message you so that you can send them an affiliate link or in any other way to exploit the forum by trying to financially gain from linking members to other websites.

Check their sister site first! Gold.co.uk. They are same company, same staff but often cheaper listings.

I said this as a joke recently but all jokes aside, I'm not ruling out the possibility that in future, milk spots actually get accepted as the nature of modern silver coinage. Admittedly, that doesn't seem likely. We'd all rather avoid them. But at some point, people might look back on certain coins (QB) and realise it's unavoidable.

This has opened a real can of worms with NGC for me.
To take the milking alone: they've graded some very highly (it may be the minimum expected, but 69 is still a very good grade) despite the milking. But there is no qualification. It's their subjective opinion about 'eye appeal'. The worst milked ones got the worst grades, but to what extent did they disregard the milking on the better examples? Would any have been 70s otherwise? The (presently) unmilked Yale at 70 suggests very possibly, and a reasonable conclusion is that no milked coin can get a 70 - but it is just guesswork.
If they give a milked coin a 69 (and the photo can be checked on the register) it leaves the secondary market stumped if the milking gets worse. At what point would/should a 69 drop a grade or two? It's all subjective at NGC on this in he first place, so will be between buyers and sellers (and between different buyers and sellers).
This is the problem with modern proof silver, especially from certain Mints, and having it graded. NGC is not helping here by grading milked coins without clarification.
I have a milked MS69 Griffin, I'll have to check the register to see if it was milked when graded.
 

This has opened a real can of worms with NGC for me.
To take the milking alone: they've graded some very highly (it may be the minimum expected, but 69 is still a very good grade) despite the milking. But there is no qualification. It's their subjective opinion about 'eye appeal'. The worst milked ones got the worst grades, but to what extent did they disregard the milking on the better examples? Would any have been 70s otherwise? The (presently) unmilked Yale at 70 suggests very possibly, and a reasonable conclusion is that no milked coin can get a 70 - but it is just guesswork.
If they give a milked coin a 69 (and the photo can be checked on the register) it leaves the secondary market stumped if the milking gets worse. At what point would/should a 69 drop a grade or two? It's all subjective at NGC on this in he first place, so will be between buyers and sellers (and between different buyers and sellers).
This is the problem with modern proof silver, especially from certain Mints, and having it graded. NGC is not helping here by grading milked coins without clarification.
I have a milked MS69 Griffin, I'll have to check the register to see if it was milked when graded.
 

I watched a video ,don't ask me who it was and when I can't remember. It was referring to a QB's 2oz proof coin that had been graded PF70 but over 6 months had developed severe milkspotting in the slab. As it couldn't hold that grade because of the spotting the person decided to just break it out of the slab and take the loss. I believe he was going to melt it down,also stated that it would be the last time he would send any silver proof coins in for grading.😒😒
It is a gamble when buying silver proofs or bullion coins that they won't develop milkspotting overtime.Saying that I have many silver Britannia's Going back 20 years that are in perfect condition,also old silver proof coins that are fine. 
The RCM in 2018 developed Mintshield technology that reduces (Not eradicates) milkspotting. Obviously they are going to keep this a secret but I'm sure the RM if they so wanted could invest in scientific tests and diagnostic procedures to establish their own type of Mintshied technology if they wanted. Makes you wonder why they havnt done this so far??

This has opened a real can of worms with NGC for me.
To take the milking alone: they've graded some very highly (it may be the minimum expected, but 69 is still a very good grade) despite the milking. But there is no qualification. It's their subjective opinion about 'eye appeal'. The worst milked ones got the worst grades, but to what extent did they disregard the milking on the better examples? Would any have been 70s otherwise? The (presently) unmilked Yale at 70 suggests very possibly, and a reasonable conclusion is that no milked coin can get a 70 - but it is just guesswork.
If they give a milked coin a 69 (and the photo can be checked on the register) it leaves the secondary market stumped if the milking gets worse. At what point would/should a 69 drop a grade or two? It's all subjective at NGC on this in he first place, so will be between buyers and sellers (and between different buyers and sellers).
This is the problem with modern proof silver, especially from certain Mints, and having it graded. NGC is not helping here by grading milked coins without clarification.
I have a milked MS69 Griffin, I'll have to check the register to see if it was milked when graded.
 

Hi all,

I prefer to collect most of my coins in ngc slabs so i sent this set for grading.
i noticed the milk spots and i knew it would not achieve very well but  decided to do it anyway and upgrade any coin to higher grade in the future if i could find any. 
After reading all the disapoinment (including mine) i am not sure if it will be possible to get this set in pf 69-70 as very few have been graded and as far as i understand , there wont be any restrikes from the mint. 
If anyone else has graded any of those please let me know. Also please feel free to share your thoughts on my coins. 
Thank you

 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

The most painful part of grading is historic coins which end up as details grades because it has slight scratches or cleaned at some time in the past (and before grading was a thing). I have a few coins in details which are fantastic coins but the premium is non-existent because of their grades. I agree that the purpose of grading has to a degree become distorted in recent years and now many people are being the slabs and not buying the coins.
I have a few graded sovereigns and eye appeal and grade are in some cases miles apart - I have a coin in 62 which is far more appealing than many of my higher grade coins. Also telling the difference between a 69 and 70 can be challenging but it’s the same with AU58 to MS63 sovereigns in my experience; some grades and examples completely baffle me.

I think grading in the volumes its happening makes this sort of behaviour inevitable. In every collecting market collectors generally want the best examples of what is out there. Grading sets out a very clear scale with a very clear pursuit for everyone - that 70. If its not perfect, if its not the best example, if its not that 70 then people don't want it. So you get a distortion of values...  70s selling for more than they're likely honestly worth and 69s going for under. Ungraded do better because there is still a chance they could be a 70...
I've said it once and I'll say it again...  I really don't like grading. I really wish it had been left as a tool for authentication as opposed to what it has become. I've been collecting various things for more than 20 years now and slowly as grading entered each market it seemed to do more harm than good. People inevitably default to purchasing and pursuing the grade instead of the coin/other collectable. The coin almost comes secondary to the grade in many cases as people rid themselves of examples that didn't quite reach that 70. Its a shame.

This could be the most accurate take on future possibilities. It seems the US money system is going to be completely digital in the near future. So then how do gold and silver factor in?
So what we may be facing is likely unprecedented. I really believe we have no idea what things will look like. But I don't know what else to do to prepare other than to stack food, water, other necessities, and silver and gold.

So many unknowns... some would say what is coming will be unprecedented in history even handed down directly by our grandfathers' fathers...we may need plenty of food and water and potentially stocked medicines to even get as far as capitalising on gold or silver. Any major 'analyst' who doesn't mention those isn't worth their salt imvho (which is not saying much really as that would be worth an absolute fortune very early on, as would tobacco etc).
Equally, gold and silver could be totally taken out of the equation by confiscation etc and a central (likely world) government-imposed social credit cyptocurrency/credit. Brush up on those hunter/gatherer skills folks, at least we will have those hot chicky babes in furs to look forward to when we get back to our caves with a couple of mangy foxes over our shoulders!
Best practice is to signpost the link directly and clearly in your post

You can find the item listing if you select "completed" items.
The legend does show "100 POUNDS",  so it is not a gold-plated silver version.
It will be base metal, either brass or gold-plated, and almost certainly made in China.
You can probably find them on AliBaba for about £1 to £2 each, but I have not looked.
Speechless? Don't be, this is ebay!

Yesterday I was told by a local bullion dealer of a true story that goes back only a few years ago regarding one of their very good customers who bought sovereigns on a regular basis. Over the years he amassed quite a number that he bought from them and was telling the staff that his preferred hiding place was inside teddy bears that he bought at charity shops which he kept at home. He's carefully unpick the stitching and place a few sovereigns in each one. Not a bad idea, however he died and the shop lost out on a good customer.
A while later his brother enters the shop with 20 sovereigns that he found lying around his deceased brother's house that he was clearing out and sold them back to them. The dealer asked him if there were anymore he was planning to bring in to sell, he said that's all he could find. Then the dealer mentioned about the hidden sovereigns inside the teddy bears and the man's heart sank, all the teddy bears were given away to charity shops! The dealer told me it was the most uncomfortable conversation he's ever had and assumed that he never got any of them back as he never returned.
A good hiding place for coins but no good if the above happens.

I think! similarly! @KevinFlynn
I chose to have some of my wealth in PM's quite a while back (Storing that wealth -purchasing power) and came to the conclusion that the traceability is why there is "War on cash"!
We have had 1984 - "they" are just slow at implementing it!
1/ Yes they  (the powers that be)   - can track the paperwork for the purchase!    RM, Bullion dealers, Ebay, et al - - If they should come knocking for confiscation  - I DON'T HAVE ANY!  - I sold to a guy at the pub - NOW track it!- -= - - -  its "OUT" of the  "SYSTEM"!
 
2/ As an insurance against the financial "hiccups" like 2007/8 (Lehmans et al) -  the beauty here is  - - - if eventually the "INSURANCE" is deemed unnecessary - "You  CAN GET YOUR MONEY BACK" - - -  Try asking for your car insurance back at the end of the year, when you have not had a bump!
Its the only money back insurance I know of!
 
3/ I also believe less and less in the digitised world that is happening (Having been in I.T. for over 30 years)   I can use it extremely well to my advantage!      BUT SO CAN SO MANY OTHERS!  - - - - Fraudsters, Government  etc etc - - - - JUST TRY!  switch off your computer/phone/tablet - and immediately pickup your money in your hand!  
IF you do not HOLD it you do not OWN it!
4/ When "They" control or remove cash and it is all digitised , privacy/freedom has gone! - - - - "negative interest rates" can be implemented at the push of a button.
Bank accounts can be locked/frozen (and there will be NOTHING you can do about it!) - - - Just ask Greeks and Cypriots!! - - (I think that was a "trial" of the ability to do it) 
In between times I can admire and smile at my "SECURITY"  - just try holding share certificates or the digitized equivalent  So with Sunday morning rant over -I hope this will stimulate "outside the box" thinking especially younger or newbies to stacking/collecting/investing.

Gold.de has some details and a nice gallery down the page.
 

On the 1oz privy front, I can probably help…as I spent a happy year or two collecting them. I never found a definitive list of all of them, either on the Perth Mint website or anywhere else…and I did look…really hard!
I do also have a few of the F15 privy 1oz kooks, although not the last two years…I refuse to pay £100+ for one oz of silver! I also never went for the coloured varieties or the lunar. There are also the gilded kooks to consider. 
 
I
The table below is what I consider to be a pretty complete list of all the 1oz privy kooks, most of which I will have an example of. It’s on an excel spreadsheet, so doesn’t import onto the forum easily. Here goes my best shot :-
1992
 
Eagle Proof
1993
 
Sydney Opera House
1993
 
Eagle Proof
1994
 
Commonwealth Games Kangaroo
1995
 
Panda
1995
 
Basler Slab
1996
 
Foundation Stone Centenery 23-9-96
1996
Europe
Brandenberg Gate
1996
Europe
Eiffel Tower 
1996
Europe
Colossus of Rhodes
1996
Europe
Tower Bridge
1996
Europe
Atomism Belgium
1996
 
Tricentennial
1996
 
Panda
1996
 
Goya
1997
 
Goudi
1997
 
Thomas Edison
1997
 
Zurich
1997
 
Oldsmobile
1997
 
Phoenix
1997
 
Dragon
1997
 
Japanese Yen Old Type
1997
 
Panda
1997
Europe
Elk Finland
1997 
Europe
Monument Portugal
1997
Europe
The Windmill Netherlands 
1997
Europe
Italy Coluseum
1997
Europe
Little Mermaid Denmark
1998
Europe
The Harp Ireland 
1998
Europe
Robert Schumann Building Lux
1998
Europe
The Alhambra
1998
Europe
St Stephens Vienna
1998
Europe
The Delaware Ship Sweden
1999
 
1919 Square Penny
1999
 
Delaware State Quarter
1999
 
New Jersey Mint
1999
 
Georgia
1999
 
Pennsylvania
1999
 
Connecticut
1999
 
16th C Japanese Oval Tempo Koban
1999
Bullion
50 Francs Lux
1999
Bullion
20 schilling Austria
1999
Bullion
1Deutschmark 
1999
Bullion
50 Francs Belg
1999
Bullion
1 guilder
1999
Bullion
5 francs France 
1999
Bullion
1000 Lire 
1999
Bullion
100 pesetas
1999
Bullion
50'escudoa
1999
Bullion
1 punt Ireland
1999
Bullion
1 Marka Finland
1999
Landmarks
Perth
1999
Landmarks
Gold Coast
1999
Landmarks
Adelaide
1999
Landmarks
McDonnell
1999
Landmarks
Sydney
1999
 
1899 Centenary Sovereign
2000
Landmarks
Kalgoorlie
2000
Landmarks
Monkey Mia
2000
Landmarks
Gt Barrier Reef
2000
Landmarks
Uluru
2000
Landmarks
Australia 2000
2000
 
Massachusetts
2000
 
Maryland
2000
 
South Carolina
2000
 
New Hampshire
2000
 
Virginia
2000
 
Jan Millennium Calendar 
2000
 
Feb
2000
 
Mar
2000
 
Apr
2000
 
May
2000
 
Jun
2000
 
Jul
2000
 
Aug
2000
 
Sep
2000
 
Oct
2000
 
Nov
2000
 
Dec
2001
 
New York
2001
 
North Carolina
2001
 
Rhode Island
2001
 
Vermont
2001
 
Kentucky
2001
 
Santa Claus
2001
 
Santa Claus
2001
 
Confederation Star
2002
 
American Flag
2005
 
Zodiac Aquarius 
2005
 
Pisces
2005
 
Aries
2005
 
Taurus
2005
 
Gemini
2005
 
Cancer
2005
 
Leo
2005
 
Virgo
2005
 
Libra
2005
 
Scorpio
2005
 
Sagittarius
2005
 
Capricorn
2012
 
Dragon
2013
 
F15
2013
 
Snake
2014
 
F15
2014
 
Horse
2015
 
F15
2015
 
Goat
2016
 
Monkey
2016
 
F15
2017
 
Rooster
2017
 
F15
2017
 
Shark
2017
 
Panda
2018
 
Dog
2018
 
F15
2018
 
Panda
2019
 
Pig 
2019
 
Square penny
2019
 
F15
2019
 
Panda
2020
 
ANDA Perth Money Expo Floral
2020
 
ANDA Brisbane Money Expo
2020
 
ANDA Melbourne Cactus privy
2020
 
ANDA Sydney Floral Privy
I do also have Mintage figures for most of the above, but they would not copy over!
Drop me a PM if you require any more info on the 1oz privy’s👍

This guy has been a go to for me for a while. If you can get past the prancing around Infront of the camera and follow the way he sees the markets it's generally a good source for me. For quiet some time he has been saying that inflation will be hidden in energy and various events that will push up prices. Looking at what is happening around us now it's astonishing. I've got that concerned over it I've told the missus to do her Christmas shopping now. Yet the pm market is un affected. 
Edit.
I told the missus "we" should do "our" Christmas shopping now. 😁 
Edit again.
I politely asked my partner "do you think we should do our Christmas shopping now"