Rarer Sovs

[BiigT]

I've got a few sovs but I'm interested in seeking a couple of the more rare type. My last purchase was a 1937 double sov and I have no intention of shifting it as I think it will hold its value more so than other high grade sovs. 

Would anyone with better knowledge be wiling to share a handful of dates that I should look into for sovs (full, half, double etc..) that are have a good chance of appreciating within wide margins. My budget is anywhere between £1500 and £4k and I don't mind sinking all of it into one coin alone, or 2 or 3 if its worth it. 

As an example, I was interested in a coin being auctioned recently. It was an 1844 half sov, 2nd highest grade at MS64 and valued £2.8k to £3.5k. It sold for £4.5k which was above my budget, but I quite like the idea of investing in something quite rare that might give me a reasonable return. 

[LawrenceChard]

44 minutes ago, BiigT said:

I've got a few sovs but I'm interested in seeking a couple of the more rare type. My last purchase was a 1937 double sov and I have no intention of shifting it as I think it will hold its value more so than other high grade sovs. 

Would anyone with better knowledge be wiling to share a handful of dates that I should look into for sovs (full, half, double etc..) that are have a good chance of appreciating within wide margins. My budget is anywhere between £1500 and £4k and I don't mind sinking all of it into one coin alone, or 2 or 3 if its worth it. 

As an example, I was interested in a coin being auctioned recently. It was an 1844 half sov, 2nd highest grade at MS64 and valued £2.8k to £3.5k. It sold for £4.5k which was above my budget, but I quite like the idea of investing in something quite rare that might give me a reasonable return. 

For investment, I would advise just buying gold bullion, in the form of sovereigns, Britannias, or 2022 double sovereigns, from a dealer near me, rather than rare dates for which you will pay a high premium.

Having said that, I would like to buy our last 1841 sovereign back for double what we sold it for.

😎

 

[BiigT]

Thanks Lawrence, I've got a few sovs that I've stacked, but I'm quite bored of it tbh. I haven't bought any for such a long time which is why I was looking at the rarer types as I think it might respark my interest. 

Maybe I'll just have a read of Marsh's book and pick a handful to keep an eye out for..... Or maybe I should look to invest elsewhere. I've got a good spread of investments and savings so it might not be a bad thing to diversify further. 

[GoldDiggerDave]

@BiigT   Buy what you like,  a safe bet is a bullion priced date run as you get a hobby for free and sovereigns have always done well historically, I would recommend you to take auction prices with a pinch of salt.  We are also likely heading into a world wide recession where many peoples budgets and spare cash for expensive coins is being stressed.   

I still buy and sell numismatic coins, but now got to a 50/50 split with gold bullion as I do not want to be too heavy into numismatic coins going into 2023 onwards.  Don't get me wrong you can still pick up gems in the right places but this is where I would encourage you to do your homework rather than someone telling you to buy a 1871  proof sovereign for example.   There is no one answer solution you have to live and breath this interest and make your decisions based on what you feel is best for you. 

Edited September 3, 2022 by GoldDiggerDave

[Stuntman]

If I was going down this route (I'm not), I would look for George III, George IV and William IV sovereigns or half-sovereigns and buy the best examples I could afford.

There are some very knowledgeable people on here about this.  I won't tag them but as well as those who've already responded, I think dicker, richatthecroft and Britannia47 will be of particular assistance.

[richatthecroft]

I guess like Dave has said, buy what you like.

My suggestion, and what I think a sensible and satisfying purchase for around £4k- £4.5k would be taking your time in seeking out a nice raw 1911 George V Coronation 10 coin Set.

With an issue of only 952 sets, there’s lots of potential of upside in years to come.  

If you manage to purchase a decent set, with an exceptional Sovereign that grades Ultra Cameo, that one coin would provide you the remaining  9 coins for ‘free’ (currently only 9 1911 Sovereigns designated Ultra Cameo).

A dwindling amount of decent raw sets remain out there (possibly because the larger 12 coin sets are plundered for the 5 & 2 Sovereigns).  

This set gives me a lot of enjoyment of ownership.  I got lucky grading the Sovereign & Half Sovereign. 

 

Edited September 3, 2022 by richatthecroft

[GoldDiggerDave]

@richatthecroft what a lovey coin set that 1911 1/2 sovereign is a diamond of coin even at 64* it looks to be very conservatively graded.  Thanks for showing this 👍

[richatthecroft]

3 minutes ago, GoldDiggerDave said:

@richatthecroft what a lovey coin set that 1911 1/2 sovereign is a diamond of coin even at 64* it looks to be very conservatively graded.  Thanks for showing this 👍

Thanks Dave.  The Reverse of the Half dragged the designation down, the Cameo is clearly much weaker than the Obverse.  I still think it should of hit Cameo and not the star, but I would say that! 
 

[Stuntman]

Really lovely set @richatthecroft , I have coin envy 🙂

The purist in me is a little bit sad that the set is no longer intact as it were, but I can understand why.

[richatthecroft]

6 minutes ago, Stuntman said:

Really lovely set @richatthecroft , I have coin envy 🙂

The purist in me is a little bit sad that the set is no longer intact as it were, but I can understand why.

I agree, it pains me to grade any older coin and you are right, it feels that the set isn’t any longer intact, the Silver sits in a cabinet and the Gold estranged, but like you pointed out, it’s  understandable to grade the more valuable coins.  
When raw, the Sovereign & Half were so hazy, it was difficult to determine what lay under the surface patina- but conservation allows you to see just how they looked when issued, and despite me knowing they were decent quality when raw, conservation does take away any guess work in terms of grade.

 

[richatthecroft]

I think @Stuntmanmakes a great suggestion of a Sovereign/ Half Sovereign from any of the three early Kings is a great idea.  I think taking your time and selecting a nice raw example would be a good way forward. 

1 hour ago, Stuntman said:

If I was going down this route (I'm not), I would look for George III, George IV and William IV sovereigns or half-sovereigns and buy the best examples I could afford.

There are some very knowledgeable people on here about this.  I won't tag them but as well as those who've already responded, I think dicker, richatthecroft and Britannia47 will be of particular assistance.

 

[shawy2510]

I have some older Half Sovs which maybe of interest 

 

[shawy2510]

This also but would blow the budget by 2.5x 

[dicker]

5 hours ago, GoldDiggerDave said:

@BiigT   Buy what you like,  a safe bet is a bullion priced date run as you get a hobby for free and sovereigns have always done well historically, I would recommend you to take auction prices with a pinch of salt.  We are also likely heading into a world wide recession where many peoples budgets and spare cash for expensive coins is being stressed.   

I still buy and sell numismatic coins, but now got to a 50/50 split with gold bullion as I do not want to be too heavy into numismatic coins going into 2023 onwards.  Don't get me wrong you can still pick up gems in the right places but this is where I would encourage you to do your homework rather than someone telling you to buy a 1871  proof sovereign for example.   There is no one answer solution you have to live and breath this interest and make your decisions based on what you feel is best for you. 

I agree strongly with @LawrenceChard and @GoldDiggerDave.  
 

Perhaps the way to go is to buy bullion now and watch the margins on Numismatic coins over the next 24 months.  If they margins drop it would be easy to swap out bullion for Numismatic.

I suspect if we have v nasty economic conditions a number of people will be selling their Numismatic collections….then will be the time to buy.

I am not always right, but the above approach is “safety first”

all the best to you

Dicker

[GoldDiggerDave]

1 hour ago, shawy2510 said:

This also but would blow the budget by 2.5x 

This is an epic example! 

[BiigT]

Thanks to everyone for the sound advice. It never fails to amaze me how friendly and supportive this forum is - it's all really appreciated. 

I don't discount the earlier posts, but the advice from @richatthecroftis exactly the kind of thing that I'm after. Some kind of treasure hunt that will keep me interested for a while whilst working towards something that will hopefully give me a good return. I didn't even know that 1911 set existed, but as others have said it, it looks incredible. 

[BiigT]

1 hour ago, shawy2510 said:

I have some older Half Sovs which maybe of interest 

 

They definitely are of interest..... I don't know enough about them, but I assume they are rare, or is it the grading.. Or maybe both! 

[richatthecroft]

1 hour ago, BiigT said:

Thanks to everyone for the sound advice. It never fails to amaze me how friendly and supportive this forum is - it's all really appreciated. 

I don't discount the earlier posts, but the advice from @richatthecroftis exactly the kind of thing that I'm after. Some kind of treasure hunt that will keep me interested for a while whilst working towards something that will hopefully give me a good return. I didn't even know that 1911 set existed, but as others have said it, it looks incredible. 

I think @LawrenceChard, @dicker & @GoldDiggerDave provided good advice in terms of bullion and therefore, safety first, but you have already stated that you have grown bored of stacking bullion, so it might be the right time for you to start investigating and researching possibilities of what numismatic coins you might like within your budget. 

I would just make sure you adopt a cautious approach and carefully choose what you purchase, preferably seeing the coin(s) in person, particularly if you are buying at auction.
If buying online,  I would recommend buying from a well established BNTA dealer- and make contact with them by telephone to discuss your needs.  Any dealer worth their salt, will provide you a no-quibble return of the coin(s) if you are not satisfied or you find a problem with the item.

Good luck with your search and let us know how you get on.

Also, it might be a good idea to purchase a Spink, ‘Coins of England, Pre- Decimal issues’, but take the price guide with a pinch of salt, particularly in terms of rarer issues or high grade coins. 

Edited September 3, 2022 by richatthecroft

[LawrenceChard]

21 minutes ago, richatthecroft said:

I think @LawrenceChard, @dicker & @GoldDiggerDave provided good advice in terms of bullion and therefore, safety first, but you have already stated that you have grown bored of stacking bullion, so it might be the right time for you to start investigating and researching possibilities of what numismatic coins you might like within your budget. 

I would just make sure you adopt a cautious approach and carefully choose what you purchase, preferably seeing the coin(s) in person, particularly if you are buying at auction.
If buying online,  I would recommend buying from a well established BNTA dealer- and make contact with them by telephone to discuss your needs.  Any dealer worth their salt, will provide you a no-quibble return of the coin(s) if you are not satisfied or you find a problem with the item.

Good luck with your search and let us know how you get on.

Also, it might be a good idea to purchase a Spink, ‘Coins of England, Pre- Decimal issues’, but take the price guide with a pinch of salt, particularly in terms of rarer issues or high grade coins. 

That makes 2 people who have mentioned me favourably in this thread already.

There are some well established, respectable, trustworthy dealers, who are not in the BNTA.

There's one in Blackpool for starters!

For balance I should also mention CoinCraft in London are not BNTA members, yet I would trust them more than some BNTA members!

😎

[SidS]

53 minutes ago, LawrenceChard said:

That makes 2 people who have mentioned me favourably in this thread already.

There are some well established, respectable, trustworthy dealers, who are not in the BNTA.

There's one in Blackpool for starters!

For balance I should also mention CoinCraft in London are not BNTA members, yet I would trust them more than some BNTA members!

😎

The old Coincraft catalogue had a wealth of information in it. I wish they'd kept on making those, knocks Spinks into the dust - albeit the Coincraft book prices were always higher than market value generally.

[BiigT]

1 hour ago, richatthecroft said:

I think @LawrenceChard, @dicker & @GoldDiggerDave provided good advice in terms of bullion and therefore, safety first, but you have already stated that you have grown bored of stacking bullion, so it might be the right time for you to start investigating and researching possibilities of what numismatic coins you might like within your budget. 

I would just make sure you adopt a cautious approach and carefully choose what you purchase, preferably seeing the coin(s) in person, particularly if you are buying at auction.
If buying online,  I would recommend buying from a well established BNTA dealer- and make contact with them by telephone to discuss your needs.  Any dealer worth their salt, will provide you a no-quibble return of the coin(s) if you are not satisfied or you find a problem with the item.

Good luck with your search and let us know how you get on.

Also, it might be a good idea to purchase a Spink, ‘Coins of England, Pre- Decimal issues’, but take the price guide with a pinch of salt, particularly in terms of rarer issues or high grade coins. 

Thanks @richatthecroft really helpful as ever. You mentioned being cautious of auctions, but would you still say that's the case for CotR and TCC? They are my 'go to' auctions as I'm not a fan of having to work out the premiums involved in other auctions and tbh, I don't really know other auction sites very well that I'd trust. The salesroom is probably not a bad shout to look at, but my overall point is that I'm more likely than not to look at auctions in my spare time as places to seek out something I'm after.

I don't mind going via dealers either and Lawrence is obviously very well regarded and very active on here, but my limited understanding is that dealers have to make their money as part of any sale so generally speaking, the prices are going to be a bit higher. I suppose the dealers come into their own if you want a specific coin and they source it for you, as that in itself is worth the premium. 

[shawy2510]

4 hours ago, BiigT said:

They definitely are of interest..... I don't know enough about them, but I assume they are rare, or is it the grading.. Or maybe both! 

They are rare in the grades they have got all of them are either top population or single finest which means none are higher over both grading companies of yet.

[Foster88]

@BiigT you’ve asked a good question and I can see that others have given you some very good advice.

In my opinion some of the sovereigns of George V are somewhat slightly overlooked. There are many rarities to be found, mostly in the branch mint sovereigns.

Do some research and you might end up down a bit of a rabbit hole doing so. Despite some of the high mintages of some George V sovereigns, which I mean the later dates 1920 > 1931 (but were minted until 1932 SA only) many were melted down. So the mintages might reflect the actual amount minted, but many went into the melting pot and many are, for now, under appreciated just how rare they might be. With some dates, nobody truly knows.

I’ve said this many times before on the forum, but most importantly buy what you like and like what you buy.

Good luck with whatever you decide to buy and do keep us posted.

[Oddjob]

Depending on your definition of rare....some of the more modern QEII sovs had very low mintages (eg sub 5,000 or sub 10,000) in some years 80's/90's with some years seeing only proof quality issued...no bullion....prices ain't bad either....worth a look see.

[Britannia47]

21 hours ago, richatthecroft said:

I agree, it pains me to grade any older coin and you are right, it feels that the set isn’t any longer intact, the Silver sits in a cabinet and the Gold estranged, but like you pointed out, it’s  understandable to grade the more valuable coins.  
When raw, the Sovereign & Half were so hazy, it was difficult to determine what lay under the surface patina- but conservation allows you to see just how they looked when issued, and despite me knowing they were decent quality when raw, conservation does take away any guess work in terms of grade.

 

I remember these older jubilee/coronation sets being more readily available when I started collecting in the late 90s. The cheapest was the 1902 ‘long’  set at about £1250. The 1911 was always more expensive/rarer though. I wish I’d bought one of them now as well as the more modern sets. The photo of your ‘short’ set looks great, even the shape of the box etc. So I agree entirely with Stuntman it’s a shame to take out (“plunder”) the Sov & Half for grading from its original box. NGC grading was not fashionable in the old days, but understand why it’s so popular today……