Is a Half Proof Sovereign an Oxymoron?

[LawrenceChard]

I sometimes see posts on TSF mentioning a "Half Proof Sovereign". Usually whoever wrote it intended it to mean a "Proof Half Sovereign", and therefore just bad syntax.

This even happened on the Chards.co.uk website, because someone had carelessly created a stock category Half Proof Sovereigns. When I saw it, I pointed out it was ungrammatical, nonsensical, misleading. It took some time before I convinced our team that it needed changing and correcting. Some thought I was just being pedantic.

But what would a half proof sovereign look like. It would have to be proof on one side, and non-proof on the other side. Clearly nonsense, and an impossibilty.

Or is it?

What does anyone make of this?:

I can confirm it is a gold sovereign, a "full" sovereign, as distinct from a half sovereign.

Although there are some imperfections on the reverse, it appears to be a proof coin.

The obverse, however, is clearly not a proof coin.

For now, I will throw this open for discussion and debate, mainly because it's getting late.

[sovereignsteve]

The obverse is clearly modern bullion standard. Although the reverse is not, I wouldn't say it is clearly a proof strike, there appears to be no "cameo" as our US friends would say. I would say it is probably a BU strike which would make it a mule 2014 sovereign, which is known I believe.

[Booky586]

Just now, sovereignsteve said:

The obverse is clearly modern bullion standard. Although the reverse is not, I wouldn't say it is clearly a proof strike, there appears to be no "cameo" as our US friends would say. I would say it is probably a BU strike which would make it a mule 2014 sovereign, which is known I believe.

Yes, this is probably the royal mints issue of a 2014 "brilliant uncirculated" sovereign, discussed here:

 

[bluffer]

i would agree with you. Half proof is confusing to both sides of the transaction and could lead to all sorts of hassle if both think they understand but understand something different.

 

 

 

[James32]

Any sovereigns/coins I received from the mint recently we're half proof/half scratched, so it's not quite oxy, but definitely packed by a moron!

Edited March 14, 2022 by James32

[SovereignBishop]

1 minute ago, James32 said:

Any sovereigns/ I received from the mint recently we're half proof/half scratched, so it's not quite oxy, but definitely packed by a moron!

Gold star for comment of the day goes to James

[sovereignsteve]

3 minutes ago, bluffer said:

i would agree with you. Half proof is confusing to both sides of the transaction and could lead to all sorts of hassle if both think they understand but understand something different.

 

 

 

People get into bad habits due to carelessly typing words in any order into search engines.

[LawrenceChard]

10 minutes ago, sovereignsteve said:

People get into bad habits due to carelessly typing words in any order into search engines.

It's not just search engines.

Look at national newpapers, full of typos, spelling errors, grammatical errors, syntax errors, factual errors, fake news, propaganda...

I shouldn't be too critical of them, their infinite number of chimpanzees do get a lot right, especially considering they are paid peanuts.

😎

[paulmerton]

48 minutes ago, LawrenceChard said:

But what would a half proof sovereign look like. It would have to be proof on one side, and non-proof on the other side.

So what would you expect your quarter proof sovereigns to look like?  

(from chards.co.uk)

[LawrenceChard]

14 minutes ago, paulmerton said:

So what would you expect your quarter proof sovereigns to look like?  

(from chards.co.uk)

We owe you a pint for finding that.

But before anyone starts looking:

https://www.chards.co.uk/2018-gold-quarter-sovereign-elizabeth-ii-proof/2960

has the same stupid mistake!

Grrrrrr!

😎

[paulmerton]

8 minutes ago, LawrenceChard said:

We owe you a pint for finding that.

I'm already owed a pint for some previous observations. How many do I need to trade them in for a quarter bullion, quarter proof, half bunc Sovereign? 😃

[HerefordBullyun]

Just to pick your brains @LawrenceChard and Im more of a silver stacker. may sound like a silly question but do Double sovereigns actually contain the double the amount of gold or does it vary by year etc release etc etc?

[stefffana]

Semantics is a hard and twisted science. Even saying Half Sovereign can be tricky. Sovereignty mean full authority, having only a half is a huge difference.

About your half proof, I have not any worries. If it is not half gold is still good for me.😊 

Edited April 2, 2022 by stefffana

[LawrenceChard]

10 hours ago, paulmerton said:

I'm already owed a pint for some previous observations. How many do I need to trade them in for a quarter bullion, quarter proof, half bunc Sovereign? 😃

Assuming the Alcohol By Volume (ABV) level of the beer is 4%, this is equivalent to 7% "proof", so approximately 7 beers would approximate to 49%, or, using some highly dodgy maths, to "half proof".

This is where we came in!

😎

[Booky586]

And probably half cut after 7 beers

[LawrenceChard]

10 hours ago, HerefordBullyun said:

Just to pick your brains @LawrenceChard and Im more of a silver stacker. may sound like a silly question but do Double sovereigns actually contain the double the amount of gold or does it vary by year etc release etc etc?

Yes, they do, although if you check some Royal Mint certificates and specifications, due to rounding errors, they appear not to.

More RM inexactitude, I'm afraid!

😎

[LawrenceChard]

1 hour ago, stefffana said:

Semantics is a hard and twisted science. Even saying Half Sovereign can be tricky. Sovereignty mean full authority, having only a half is a huge difference.

About your half proof, I have not any worries. If it is not half gold is still good for me.😊

By the way, I have a beautiful coin described beautifully on your site, @LawrenceChard: https://taxfreegold.co.uk/1980turksandcaicos100crownsmountbatten.html. This coin is .500 gold, so I can say without fear that it is half gold proof?

You sure can!

🙂

[SidS]

Half proof suggests that the back of the Queen's head is pristine and shiny, the front half is scratched to ***k.

It was an accident m' lord, she tripped and fell into a door, honest.

Edited March 15, 2022 by SidS

[LawrenceChard]

19 hours ago, sovereignsteve said:

The obverse is clearly modern bullion standard. Although the reverse is not, I wouldn't say it is clearly a proof strike, there appears to be no "cameo" as our US friends would say. I would say it is probably a BU strike which would make it a mule 2014 sovereign, which is known I believe.

Quite a good answer.

Apparently, the coin is BU or "Brilliant Uncirculated" according the Royal Mint:

So you were about right.

I had described it as "bullion" obverse, before I saw the Certificate and Specifications.

I believe that for some years, the RM marketing department have been rather unclear about the difference between "Brilliant Uncirculated" and bullion.

I first became aware that they regarded "Brilliant Uncirculated" as distinct from bulllion in 2000, when they issued a BU gold £5 Quintuple Sovereign at a typically high premium, then later issued a bullion version at around 10% premium. When I challenged the Mint about this, their rather snotty answer was that "Brilliant Uncirculated" was a much higher production standard than bullion.

Since then, though, I have seen "Brilliant Uncirculated" sovereigns in RM cards or other packaging which have clearly not been what most people would accept as "Brilliant Uncirculated". I firmly believe that someone in RM marketing has conflated and confused the two production grades.

Until now, I had not realised that "Brilliant Uncirculated" / proof mules of this date were known.

Other TSF members have posted links to a previous thread about them.

 

[Stuntman]

I have one of the Bullion 2000 Quintuples, it sits nicely with my 21st-century bullion sovs and double sovs.

I also didn't know about the 2014 BU sovereign. They did do a 2014 BU double sovereign release, which may be why there is also the BU sovereign for that year.

And proof sovereigns, proof reading and degrees proof for alcohol!  The proof of the pudding is in the eating...

[paulmerton]

3 minutes ago, Stuntman said:

The proof of the pudding is in the eating...

It makes me smile to see someone using the correct expression for a change!  

But then again, I also smile when I see the wrong expressions. Funny/unintentional ones I remember from here and elsewhere include:

• the proof is in the pudding
• waiting with baited breath
• could care less
• without further adieu
• I'm on tender hooks

 

[LawrenceChard]

We took more photos, and created a comparisons image:

We should have captioned the middle coin as a "mule", or Brilliant Uncirculated / Proof Mule.

The reverse of the "bullion" version looks quite good, shows a few small "dents" and marks. The raised relief parts of the design appear polished .

The reverse of the B.U. version looks very good, with a highly polished field, and matt finish on the relief parts, distinctly proof or prooflike. The matt finish is more clearly apparent to the naked eye than it appears in our photograph.

The reverse of the proof version also looks very good, as expected, and the matt finish is more pronounced.

The obverses of the "bullion" and B.U. versions are indistinguishable from each other as far as detailed definition is concerned, although the bullion version has more surface marks. 

The obverse of the proof version also looks very good, as expected, with greater detail definition, and the matt finish matches the reverse.

I conclude that the middle coin is indeed a mule, even though the matt finish does not quite match that of the "Proof". the is little doubt it was struck using a non-proof obverse die, and a proof or prooflike reverse die.

If the planchet (blank) was prepared to a "Brilliant Uncirculated" standard rather than a proof standard, this may help to explain the slightly less contrasting matt finish compared with the proof. It is also possible and likely that the proof was double struck, or struck more slowly and at higher pressure than the "Brilliant Uncirculated" coin, and this could also be part of the explanation.

So there we have it, a "Half Proof Sovereign"!

😎

 

[LawrenceChard]

On 16/03/2022 at 14:23, paulmerton said:

It makes me smile to see someone using the correct expression for a change!  

But then again, I also smile when I see the wrong expressions. Funny/unintentional ones I remember from here and elsewhere include:

• the proof is in the pudding
• waiting with baited breath
• could care less
• without further adieu
• I'm on tender hooks

 

I once had a sardine sandwich before going fishing, and then waited with baited breath!

😎