Why silver price is going down when we have such inflation?

[SidS]

4 minutes ago, TeaTime said:

Silver coins have always carried a numismatic premium which increases with age - not so much with gold coins that tracks spot much more closely.

My numismatic silver coins have done well, admittedly my numismatic gold coins would have performed even better, if I still had them!

But as I've always said, I play the numismatic markets not the silver.

[Centauri167]

On 19/08/2022 at 22:12, LawrenceChard said:

But better still, choose gold not silver:

https://www.chards.co.uk/blog/advice-guide-for-uk-bullion-investors/1041

and choose a dealer who gives you good advice, not just a sales pitch.

😎

It was a discussion about VAT on silver in Europe. ( EU )

If you want to use it to advertise your business, I think that is a real sales pitch ...

[GoldDiggerDave]

I've bashed silver a bit in this thread, you can play the 10-15% game with silver and buy and sell within this type of spread.  You have to shift loads but you can make a few quid.  

The actual stacker the buyer who buys for the long term has likely to have lost money in real terms in the last 10 years the longer they have held it due to the price not really moving too much and it's not kept up with inflation.  

So whats the answer?  For me I'm happy to hold silver and if it does go to the moon I will cash it in, happy to hold it and it's nice to have a few different rounds, would I stack silver going forward simple answer no.  I'll still pick up the odd round that catches my eye for the hobby but I don't see it as an investment that I'm likely to see a real world return.......this is solely my own opinion and I'm not out to upset anyone.  

It's not performed well over the last 10 years, we could see a tipping point especially with inflation and high energy cost that it may become cheaper for the silver industry to source refined silver from stackers then it costs to take it out of the ground, but this is based on demand, it may become expensive to mine but then the world is in a recession where no one is buying anything so less demand.......in short no one knows.

If i did not hold any silver I would get a few 100 oz just as a lottery ticket.  

Live long and prosper! 

 

 

 

 

 

[LawrenceChard]

4 hours ago, Centauri167 said:

It was a discussion about VAT on silver in Europe. ( EU )

If you want to use it to advertise your business, I think that is a real sales pitch ...

No, it's more a statement of fact. There is still VAT on silver in the EU, while investment gold is exempt from VAT.

As you are in Belgium, it might be more advantageous for you to buy from Belgian or other EU dealers, but still follow my / our advice, because it is geared toward helping investors/ stackers / collectors make better choices, rather than to benefit me / us. Not many other dealers do this.

Even our "Advice Guide for UK Bullion Investors" is still highly relevant for most EU citizens. The main difference being the CGT (Capital Gains Tax) exemption for UK residents on disposals of "Sterling" including British coins.

😎

[ArgentSmith]

On 19/08/2022 at 21:12, LawrenceChard said:

But better still, choose gold not silver:

 

but Lawrence... the ratio 😱

[Centauri167]

18 minutes ago, LawrenceChard said:

No, it's more a statement of fact. There is still VAT on silver in the EU, while investment gold is exempt from VAT.

As you are in Belgium, it might be more advantageous for you to buy from Belgian or other EU dealers, but still follow my / our advice, because it is geared toward helping investors/ stackers / collectors make better choices, rather than to benefit me / us. Not many other dealers do this.

Even our "Advice Guide for UK Bullion Investors" is still highly relevant for most EU citizens. The main difference being the CGT (Capital Gains Tax) exemption for UK residents on disposals of "Sterling" including British coins.

😎

In most EU countries there is NO Vat on Bullion silver. On bars and rounds there is VAT. That was my point, nothing more. 

Why some people, like you, keep repeating that there is VAT on silver in the EU ( the EU is a whole, not one or some countries ), I don't understand ...

[LemmyMcGregor]

16 minutes ago, Centauri167 said:

In most EU countries there is NO Vat on Bullion silver. On bars and rounds there is VAT. That was my point, nothing more. 

Why some people, like you, keep repeating that there is VAT on silver in the EU ( the EU is a whole, not one or some countries ), I don't understand ...

I've got caught on this a few times, I take you meant that there is no VAT on bullion coins.

To the best of my understanding, across all EU you are free from VAT on gold coins, however, the same status is not given to Silver, you have to pay VAT in every EU country, except for Estonia. You used to be able to buy from them VAT free, however, the EU likes taxes and recently changed it so that taxes must be payed based on the location of the buyer, so if you buy from Belgium you pay the Belgian value on VAT.

I think you can still skip VAT if you purchase through an Estonian address and have a third party do the delivery and I recall reading something about Norway, meaning that you could have access to VAT free silver, but saying that in most EU countries there is no VAT is incorrect.

I mean, give him credit to run a business that probably has to deal with the item on a daily basis...

Edited August 22, 2022 by LemmyMcGregor

[theman73]

15 minutes ago, LemmyMcGregor said:

except for Estonia

Not anymore, they add VAT to silver coins from 1 July 2022 

Regards

Constantin

[LawrenceChard]

2 hours ago, ArgentSmith said:

but Lawrence... the ratio 😱

I know, over 90:1

Great if you can trade silver XAG, but manufacturing premiums on physical make a huge impact, then 20% VAT kills it!

 

[LawrenceChard]

On 22/08/2022 at 17:41, Centauri167 said:

In most EU countries there is NO Vat on Bullion silver. On bars and rounds there is VAT. That was my point, nothing more. 

Why some people, like you, keep repeating that there is VAT on silver in the EU ( the EU is a whole, not one or some countries ), I don't understand ...

But there is VAT on silver coins in the EU.

If you would care to correct me by pointing to an official EU source which states otherwise, I would be grateful.

But perhaps you could explain what you mean by "NO Vat on Bullion silver". Do you mean silver futures, account (paper) silver, or some other form of "Bullion silver" or silver bullion.

When you say "On bars and rounds there is VAT", it rather implies that this does not apply to silver coins, but you fail to state this explicitly, leaving your readers to guess or imterpret what precisley you mean.

If you are correct, then I would like to be able to correct and inform a number of our fellow bullion dealers in the EU who have been under a major misunderstanding for at least the past 20 years.

Even the Germans, who had a special 7% rate on silver bullion coins until a few years ago, now have 19% VAT on silver coins.

😎

 

Edited August 23, 2022 by LawrenceChard

[LemmyMcGregor]

15 minutes ago, LawrenceChard said:

I know, over 90:1

Great if you can trade silver XAG, but manufacturing premiums on physical make a huge impact, then 20% VAT kills it!

 

[Centauri167]

On 22/08/2022 at 18:57, LemmyMcGregor said:

I've got caught on this a few times, I take you meant that there is no VAT on bullion coins.

To the best of my understanding, across all EU you are free from VAT on gold coins, however, the same status is not given to Silver, you have to pay VAT in every EU country, except for Estonia. You used to be able to buy from them VAT free, however, the EU likes taxes and recently changed it so that taxes must be payed based on the location of the buyer, so if you buy from Belgium you pay the Belgian value on VAT.

I think you can still skip VAT if you purchase through an Estonian address and have a third party do the delivery and I recall reading something about Norway, meaning that you could have access to VAT free silver, but saying that in most EU countries there is no VAT is incorrect.

I mean, give him credit to run a business that probably has to deal with the item on a daily basis...

There is NO VAT on silver coins in many EU countries, Belgium is STILL one of them but there are others too.

Please stop with giving misinformation.

[Centauri167]

22 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

But there is VAT on silver coins in the EU.

If you would care to correct me by pointing to an official EU source which states otherwise, I would be grateful.

But perhaps you could explain what you mean by "NO Vat on Bullion silver". Do you mean silver futures, account (paper) silver, or some other form of "Bullion silver" or silver bullion.

When you say "On bars and rounds there is VAT", it rather implies that this does not apply to silver coins, but you fail to state this explicitly, leaving your readers to guess or imterpret what precisley you mean.

If you are correct, then I would like to be able to correct and inform a number of our fellow bullion dealers in the EU who have been under a major misunderstanding for at least the past 20 years.

Even the German, who had a special 7% rate on silver bullion coins until a few years ago, now have 19% VAT on silver coins.

😎

 

With "Bullion" silver I was referring to official minted coins from a country with a monetary value. These are still VAT free in many EU countries, like Belgium.

On rounds, bars ( that are not coins ), medals, ... and even junk silver ( constitutional ) lower than 85 or 90% silver ( not 100% sure which it is ) you have to pay VAT on.

But if I would buy a silver Britt in Belgium, I pay NO Vat on it.

And if you want to bet on it, just say the amount and I will scan and send you my latest order invoices of silver coins !

[Centauri167]

And for all those who don't believe me that in some EU countries like Belgium, you don't have to pay VAT on silver coins, just check out the site of goldsilver.be ( link below ) and choose an address in Belgium for delivery and you will see that no Vat is added !

And if you want I can give links from other dealers in Belgium too where you also have to pay no VAT.

https://goldsilver.be/en/84-1-oz-30-gr?orderby=price&orderway=asc

 

[LawrenceChard]

17 minutes ago, Centauri167 said:

With "Bullion" silver I was referring to official minted coins from a country with a monetary value. These are still VAT free in many EU countries, like Belgium.

On rounds, bars ( that are not coins ), medals, ... and even junk silver ( constitutional ) lower than 85 or 90% silver ( not 100% sure which it is ) you have to pay VAT on.

But if I would buy a silver Britt in Belgium, I pay NO Vat on it.

And if you want to bet on it, just say the amount and I will scan and send you my latest order invoices of silver coins !

 

12 minutes ago, Centauri167 said:

And for all those who don't believe me that in some EU countries like Belgium, you don't have to pay VAT on silver coins, just check out the site of goldsilver.be ( link below ) and choose an address in Belgium for delivery and you will see that no Vat is added !

And if you want I can give links from other dealers in Belgium too where you also have to pay no VAT.

https://goldsilver.be/en/84-1-oz-30-gr?orderby=price&orderway=asc

 

 

25 minutes ago, Centauri167 said:

There is NO VAT on silver coins in many EU countries, Belgium is STILL one of them but there are others too.

Please stop with giving misinformation.

 

23 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

But there is VAT on silver coins in the EU.

If you would care to correct me by pointing to an official EU source which states otherwise, I would be grateful.

But perhaps you could explain what you mean by "NO Vat on Bullion silver". Do you mean silver futures, account (paper) silver, or some other form of "Bullion silver" or silver bullion.

When you say "On bars and rounds there is VAT", it rather implies that this does not apply to silver coins, but you fail to state this explicitly, leaving your readers to guess or imterpret what precisely you mean.

If you are correct, then I would like to be able to correct and inform a number of our fellow bullion dealers in the EU who have been under a major misunderstanding for at least the past 20 years.

Even the Germans, who had a special 7% rate on silver bullion coins until a few years ago, now have 19% VAT on silver coins.

😎

 

Thank you for clarifying that when you said "In most EU countries there is NO Vat on Bullion silver.", you meant "official minted coins from a country with a monetary value", although I would have hope you might be able to clarify the required fineness.

You also claim "These are still VAT free in many EU countries, like Belgium.", although you have failed to list a single other EU country where this applies.

I did say "If you would care to correct me by pointing to an official EU source which states otherwise, I would be grateful.", but you appear to have ignored this.

I would be happy to accept an official Belgian government source.

You did say "Please stop with giving misinformation.", yet you have offered very little evidence that my post constituted misinformation.

I remain patiently waiting for more and better information from you.

😎

 

[TheShinyStuff]

31 minutes ago, LawrenceChard said:

 

 

 

Thank you for clarifying that when you said "In most EU countries there is NO Vat on Bullion silver.", you meant "official minted coins from a country with a monetary value", although I would have hope you might be able to clarify the required fineness.

You also claim "These are still VAT free in many EU countries, like Belgium.", although you have failed to list a single other EU country where this applies.

I did say "If you would care to correct me by pointing to an official EU source which states otherwise, I would be grateful.", but you appear to have ignored this.

I would be happy to accept an official Belgian government source.

You did say "Please stop with giving misinformation.", yet you have offered very little evidence that my post constituted misinformation.

I remain patiently waiting for more and better information from you.

😎

 

Anyone else think that Mrs Chard deserves a medal??!!

Just a wee joke, Mr C. 😁

[Centauri167]

18 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

 

 

 

Thank you for clarifying that when you said "In most EU countries there is NO Vat on Bullion silver.", you meant "official minted coins from a country with a monetary value", although I would have hope you might be able to clarify the required fineness.

You also claim "These are still VAT free in many EU countries, like Belgium.", although you have failed to list a single other EU country where this applies.

I did say "If you would care to correct me by pointing to an official EU source which states otherwise, I would be grateful.", but you appear to have ignored this.

I would be happy to accept an official Belgian government source.

You did say "Please stop with giving misinformation.", yet you have offered very little evidence that my post constituted misinformation.

I remain patiently waiting for more and better information from you.

😎

 

If you are so curious about the Belgian laws about silver and VAT, google is your friend or just send an e-mail to your Belgian colleagues, I'm sure there will be at least one who will give you the 100% correct information or law referrals.

For other EU countries, just check google again and look for online silver dealers in the EU, you will see that there are still other countries like Belgium were you can buy silver coins without VAT.

For me it stops here. If you or others don't believe me despite I sended you the link so you can see it yourself, good by me.

[LawrenceChard]

3 hours ago, Centauri167 said:

If you are so curious about the Belgian laws about silver and VAT, google is your friend or just send an e-mail to your Belgian colleagues, I'm sure there will be at least one who will give you the 100% correct information or law referrals.

For other EU countries, just check google again and look for online silver dealers in the EU, you will see that there are still other countries like Belgium were you can buy silver coins without VAT.

For me it stops here. If you or others don't believe me despite I sended you the link so you can see it yourself, good by me.

I like my knowledge and opinions to be correct and soundly based. You contention that silver (coins) are not subject to VAT in Belgium came as a great surprise.

As you purport to be so knowledgeable, I thought you might also have some pride in your own knowledge and accuracy, but it appears not.

Google is not necessarily anyone's friend when it comes to sourcing accurate official information, but as you believe it is so easy, the least you could have done to defend your position would have been to find it on Google, and add the eppropriate links here on TSF. It should be easier for a French or Flemish speaker than for an English one, or you could have asked your preferred supplier, and forwarded the response.

The fact that you have failed to list any other EU country where silver coins are not VATable is presumably because you realise you were wrong, but don't like to admit it. "There is NO VAT on silver coins in many EU countries, Belgium is STILL one of them but there are others too."

"Why some people, like you, keep repeating that there is VAT on silver in the EU ( the EU is a whole, not one or some countries ), I don't understand ..." 

Perhaps it is because, with the possible exception of Belgium, that I and all the others are right, and you are wrong.

Your contention that "( the EU is a whole, not one or some countries ) is also deeply flawed. Every EU member has substantial freedom to set it own tax rules, and laws, as long as the are within the general framework of the EU rules and laws.

When you say " I don't understand ...", I can see why.

I am used to people being wrong, but when they purport to be knowledgeable it is harder to accept, particularly when they accuse me and most other people of being wrong "Please stop with giving misinformation."

We are not giving you misinformation (with the possible exception of Belgium, where you are unabnle or unwilling to clarify matters, or defend you position).

I certainly do not mind being corrected when I am wrong, which is part of the reason I am usually right, but I do object to being accused of giving misinformation when I am correct, or substantially so.

😎

 

[Petra]

What about the idea that if you buy the occasional quality silver coin, bar etc. then there is a fair chance that as opposed to pure bullion, they will not only hold their price but may make you a profit? This doesn’t need to be Royal Mint proof coins either. Personally wouldn’t really know what to do with a Kilo of pre whatever coins, but people obviously buy these things.🤔🤔

 

[Bigmarc]

23 hours ago, Centauri167 said:

And for all those who don't believe me that in some EU countries like Belgium, you don't have to pay VAT on silver coins, just check out the site of goldsilver.be ( link below ) and choose an address in Belgium for delivery and you will see that no Vat is added !

And if you want I can give links from other dealers in Belgium too where you also have to pay no VAT.

https://goldsilver.be/en/84-1-oz-30-gr?orderby=price&orderway=asc

 

Well I learnt something today. It's a good law with an understanding of the market and would be most welcome in the UK. 

I couldn't find anything on Google and the link you posted, I was a bit suspicious of as it was a bullion important company but remembered when in Antwerp I purchased a couple of bits there. This is how their website explains it. 

SILVER COINS

At Argentor you can choose from several modern bullion coins, such as the Maple Leaf, the Vienna Philharmonic and the Silver Eagle, but also from different Australian kilo coins.

Silver coins serve perfectly as a purchase of physical silver. Opposed to silver bars you needn't pay VAT because silver coins are traded under the VAT margin regulation. Bottom line that means that a trader of silver coins has to pay VAT but only on the profit he makes and not on the total revenue of the transaction. In other words, the VAT will not be charged directly to the customer but will be part of the premium you pay upon buying silver coins.

Even though all coins offered by Argentor are tested, they do not come with a certificate as opposed to silver bars.

 

https://www.argentorshop.be/en/buy-silver/

 

 

 

[LawrenceChard]

On 19/08/2022 at 18:51, Centauri167 said:

If you are from the part of Ireland that is in the EU, just check out: www.goldsilver.be

 

Their postage sounds expensive, and also their minimum order:

There is 1 error

1. A minimum purchase total of 99,99 € (tax excl.) is required in order to validate your order, current purchase total is 23,98 € (tax excl.).

« Back

Product	Description	.	Unit price	Qty	Total
B2B OK		Total products (tax incl.)			23,98 €
		Total shipping & insurance			25,00 €
		Total (tax excl.)			48,98 €
		Tax			0,00 €
		TOTAL			48,98 €
	1 oz silver KANGAROO 2022 $1 Australia SKU : 21-/ B94Capsule or no capsule : No capsule	.	23,98 €		23,98 €

I picked the lowest price new one ounce silver bullion coin I could find

I don't know where their site assumed the order was to be posted to.

Minimum order does not appear to be stated or revealed beforehand, only when you try to proceed to checkout, then it gives an error message, as though the customer has made a mistake.

😎

 

[LemmyMcGregor]

1 hour ago, LawrenceChard said:

Their postage sounds expensive, and also their minimum order:

There is 1 error

1. A minimum purchase total of 99,99 € (tax excl.) is required in order to validate your order, current purchase total is 23,98 € (tax excl.).

« Back

Product	Description	.	Unit price	Qty	Total
B2B OK		Total products (tax incl.)			23,98 €
		Total shipping & insurance			25,00 €
		Total (tax excl.)			48,98 €
		Tax			0,00 €
		TOTAL			48,98 €
	1 oz silver KANGAROO 2022 $1 Australia SKU : 21-/ B94Capsule or no capsule : No capsule	.	23,98 €		23,98 €

I picked the lowest price new one ounce silver bullion coin I could find

I don't know where their site assumed the order was to be posted to.

Minimum order does not appear to be stated or revealed beforehand, only when you try to proceed to checkout, then it gives an error message, as though the customer has made a mistake.

😎

 

I've done the same exercise yesterday, but couldn't be arsed to post in the end as the EU sites can be very confusing.

Their shipping is expensive and their prices end up being not that good, I wonder what they mean when they say TAX INCLUDED.

Similar prices on other sites, I found this:

https://silvergoldbull.be/en/tax

EU says that Gold has an exception, no mention of Silver:
https://taxation-customs.ec.europa.eu/special-schemes_en


 

The site he offered links to a a European law which I quote:
https://eur-lex.europa.eu/legal-content/EN/TXT/HTML/?uri=CELEX:32006L0112&from=FR

"Member States shall exempt the following transactions:

transactions, including negotiation, concerning currency, bank notes and coins used as legal tender, with the exception of collectors' items, that is to say, gold, silver or other metal coins or bank notes which are not normally used as legal tender or coins of numismatic interest;" This sounds to me like in use currency is exempt, while gold and silver are not as they not normally used as legal tender, reason why they had to vote for the above exception just for gold.   Sorry for the wall of text, I was bored

 

[sixgun]

2 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

Their postage sounds expensive, and also their minimum order:

There is 1 error

1. A minimum purchase total of 99,99 € (tax excl.) is required in order to validate your order, current purchase total is 23,98 € (tax excl.).

« Back

Product	Description	.	Unit price	Qty	Total
B2B OK		Total products (tax incl.)			23,98 €
		Total shipping & insurance			25,00 €
		Total (tax excl.)			48,98 €
		Tax			0,00 €
		TOTAL			48,98 €
	1 oz silver KANGAROO 2022 $1 Australia SKU : 21-/ B94Capsule or no capsule : No capsule	.	23,98 €		23,98 €

I picked the lowest price new one ounce silver bullion coin I could find

I don't know where their site assumed the order was to be posted to.

Minimum order does not appear to be stated or revealed beforehand, only when you try to proceed to checkout, then it gives an error message, as though the customer has made a mistake.

😎

When i order for delivery in Spain the shipping is 45€ - it is very expensive. This is why i get them to vault the order and then after a few orders get them to deliver multiple orders. It is 6€ each time to hold an order and then 45€ to deliver. Unless you are ordering a lot of swag, GS.be even inside the EU can be expensive, especially in some EU states. If i plug into buy 500 silver 1 oz coins the shipping goes 78€ which is the top price they charge. In the past GS.be would do free shipping for large orders but not anymore. 

GS.be is cheaper than other dealers for EU customers but you have to buy at least a tube of coins to get the price advantage due to high shipping charges - these are probably just covering costs. Shipping inside the EU can be quite expensive.

  

8 minutes ago, LemmyMcGregor said:

EU says that Gold has an exception, no mention of Silver:
https://taxation-customs.ec.europa.eu/special-schemes_e

As i understand it dealers use 'loopholes' to buy silver outside the EU and pay lower VAT rates on import, VAT they don't reclaim - then they sell it second hand.

Edited August 24, 2022 by sixgun

[SidS]

9 hours ago, LemmyMcGregor said:

 

This sounds to me like in use currency is exempt, while gold and silver are not as they not normally used as legal tender, reason why they had to vote for the above exception just for gold.

I did wonder (nothing but speculation in my own mind) that the VAT exemption was referring to currency pieces rather than modern bullion for investment perhaps.

[LemmyMcGregor]

 

33 minutes ago, SidS said:

I did wonder (nothing but speculation in my own mind) that the VAT exemption was referring to currency pieces rather than modern bullion for investment perhaps.

9 hours ago, sixgun said:

When i order for delivery in Spain the shipping is 45€ - it is very expensive. This is why i get them to vault the order and then after a few orders get them to deliver multiple orders. It is 6€ each time to hold an order and then 45€ to deliver. Unless you are ordering a lot of swag, GS.be even inside the EU can be expensive, especially in some EU states. If i plug into buy 500 silver 1 oz coins the shipping goes 78€ which is the top price they charge. In the past GS.be would do free shipping for large orders but not anymore. 

GS.be is cheaper than other dealers for EU customers but you have to buy at least a tube of coins to get the price advantage due to high shipping charges - these are probably just covering costs. Shipping inside the EU can be quite expensive.

  

As i understand it dealers use 'loopholes' to buy silver outside the EU and pay lower VAT rates on import, VAT they don't reclaim - then they sell it second hand.

By what has been previously described, sounds the same as selling second hand pieces here in the UK under the special scheme.