Has Brexit Killed off silver stacking in the UK?

[StackemHigh]

With ultra high premiums on silver and 20% TAX on silver in the UK has silver stacking become a thing of the past?

[LawrenceChard]

12 minutes ago, StackemHigh said:

With ultra high premiums on silver and 20% TAX on silver in the UK has silver stacking become a thing of the past?

No!

Despite my advice about investing in precious metals: 

Gold should be your first choice, because investment gold is exempt from VAT in the UK (& also EU).

Silver is still in big demand.

For example @ChardsCoinandBullionDealer has a standing request for 30,000 silver Britannias per month from the Royal Mint, although we have only been receiving 10,000.

We did manage a few days ago to buy an extra 20,000 from a fellow distributor / competitor, but these are for offshore storage, which legally avoids VAT for larger investors.

Of course, this still fails to equal the 3.2 tonnes of silver coins we once imported from Perth Mint, back in the days of the Credit / Banking crisis. that was quite a stack, a 7 pallet load on the back of a 7.5 tonne wagon, which  I drove. (From Manchester Airport, not from Western Australia).

😎

 

[Shinus73]

I think it’s psychologically difficult for those who were used to the low VAT associated with buying from the EU to pay the additional tax + import duty.

Certainly the case for me.

[Scuzzle]

Yes, with the combination of premiums and VAT it makes far more sense to switch to gold now IMO especially for those that managed to accumulate in the good old days and have a decent  silver stack put aside, if  you still buy today all you are doing is raising your cost average price massively. 

[StackemHigh]

I still buy silver for collections and ongoing series that i like. I nolonger buy the 100oz+ bullion stacking silver every year that i would have though.

Maybe as a well known and trusted supplier @LawrenceChard sells a good number of bullion oz's but i do think that a swing has started to shift in favour of Gold / old numi coins.

I have a great liking for silver but i really can't see the new Stackers and collectors of the future that do research into precious metals thinking that silver is viable investment.

 

[modofantasma]

There is still demand but for me, I've been focusing on gold. It seems some of the members on the forum are doing similar.
Ultimately, whilst it wasn't your actual question, the thing that will determine 'which was best' gold or silver is the price you come to sell at. Maybe paying 50% premium above spot will work out ok in the end if silver doubles and gold 'only' goes up by 30% for eg

[SilverJacks]

My interest in PMs only goes back to 2020. I did get some VAT free, but not a lot.

VAT seems normal to me. Combined with high premiums, I just see it as a cost factor associated with the product. No one except the dealers can buy it for spot price anyway. When it comes to selling, the market price seems to reflect the costs of VAT and premiums. As long as demand is there, you'll get it back anyway

[blackadder]

I think it's mainly the increase in prices overall due whats going on atm.

Or maybe in golds case,even without vat it's now priced alot of people out.

 

[dikefalos]

You already paid VAT before Brexit. Just not in the UK. Most european countries have around 20% VAT on silver. I think Belgium and Lithuania hadn't to charge VAT on silver until this year. European dealers should be able to send VAT free to the UK, just like non european dealers are sending VAT free to the EU. Germany has a special VAT scheme on silver coins, it's not many of them here charging 19% on silver. You should ask before buying outside the UK for VAT free shipping, to avoid double paying VAT. 

[Shinus73]

43 minutes ago, dikefalos said:

You already paid VAT before Brexit. Just not in the UK. Most european countries have around 20% VAT on silver. I think Belgium and Lithuania hadn't to charge VAT on silver until this year. European dealers should be able to send VAT free to the UK, just like non european dealers are sending VAT free to the EU. Germany has a special VAT scheme on silver coins, it's not many of them here charging 19% on silver. You should ask before buying outside the UK for VAT free shipping, to avoid double paying VAT. 

The only reason that we ever got reduced VAT rate silver was because we were members of the EU. As such, the VAT rate was applied at the country of the sale (I.e. 6% if you bought from Germany) and no additional fees were due. This is no longer the case, 20% UK VAT is applicable and customs fees will also be added.

[Scuzzle]

49 minutes ago, dikefalos said:

You already paid VAT before Brexit. Just not in the UK. Most european countries have around 20% VAT on silver. I think Belgium and Lithuania hadn't to charge VAT on silver until this year. European dealers should be able to send VAT free to the UK, just like non european dealers are sending VAT free to the EU. Germany has a special VAT scheme on silver coins, it's not many of them here charging 19% on silver. You should ask before buying outside the UK for VAT free shipping, to avoid double paying VAT. 

Before Brexit we all paid 6% VAT on silver from Europe under the margin scheme, the rise to  20% is hard to take after paying 6%.

[AppleZippoandMetronome]

Its going to depend on who you ask. What really killed it for me personally wasn't so much the VAT but the insane premiums that started being commanded back in mid to late 2020. With the VAT on top of that generic bullion was selling for well over £10/oz on top of spot. In the last two years the only silver I've bought is collectable stuff I've really wanted and I've kept up my BYB Silver Forum bar number(s).

I know the premiums are a bit better these days but I'm at a point where I've moved on. I'm happy to own the silver that I do but when I buy more PM's the focus will remain gold for now apart from the odd piece I may want to collect.

[dikefalos]

1 hour ago, Shinus73 said:

The only reason that we ever got reduced VAT rate silver was because we were members of the EU. As such, the VAT rate was applied at the country of the sale (I.e. 6% if you bought from Germany) and no additional fees were due. This is no longer the case, 20% UK VAT is applicable and customs fees will also be added.

Until 2013 we had 7% VAT on every silver coin. Since 2014 they raised VAT to 19%. Now we pay 7% only for collectables (official currency, worth more than 250% of spot) and 19% on bullion. There is another special VAT scheme for antiques and collectables. In this case the dealer has to pay only VAT for the difference between his purchase and sale, there is no VAT on your invoice. Most coin dealers in Germany use this scheme. And we had for 2020 after the covid restrictions lowered VAT (5% / 15%) for one year as a thank you for shutting everything down.

[LawrenceChard]

37 minutes ago, dikefalos said:

Until 2013 we had 7% VAT on every silver coin. Since 2014 they raised VAT to 19%. Now we pay 7% only for collectables (official currency, worth more than 250% of spot) and 19% on bullion. There is another special VAT scheme for antiques and collectables. In this case the dealer has to pay only VAT for the difference between his purchase and sale, there is no VAT on your invoice. Most coin dealers in Germany use this scheme. And we had for 2020 after the covid restrictions lowered VAT (5% / 15%) for one year as a thank you for shutting everything down.

Yes, I remember the 7% German VAT rate very well.

One year, we took about 600 kilos of Perth Mint silver coins to the World Money Fair in Berlin. We sold out.

The next week we took another similar lot, which we had sold to a dealer, to Frankfurt.

😎

[TeaTime]

I've stopped buying generic silver coins/rounds/bars apart from those that keep a date-run going or those which i believe have a good chance of becoming popular in a few years. I would switch to generic gold but it only seems like yesterday that i was buying sovereigns for £60 a pop. I can't get over the relatively rapid increase in gold and i see little value in purchasing at circa £1400-£1500 an ounce..

.. That leaves me with buying silver proof coins at around intrinsic values - which there are, surprisingly, quite a few of around. Bottom line is buying silver or gold from a dealer just doesn't work for me at the moment 😶

 

[scotwasp]

This forum activity would seem to suggest that,,,, no,,,, it hasn’t killed off silver stacking.  I certainly can’t seem to bag any bargains on the sales section 😟.

So someone  other than me is still blooming stacking 😆

[Pete]

7 hours ago, Scuzzle said:

Before Brexit we all paid 6% VAT on silver from Europe under the margin scheme, the rise to  20% is hard to take after paying 6%.

The margin scheme I believe ( please correct if I am mistaken ) has absolutely nothing to do with Brexit.
The margin scheme can also be used in the UK but our dealers choose not to use it and I don't know the reasons.
VAT in Germany is 19% but many dealers operate the margin scheme.
Until June 30 2022 the European Mint in Estonia has 0% VAT on silver coins so all EU countries can still avoid VAT on silver.
Post Brexit of course means all imports from the EU incur 20% VAT and if EU VAT has already been charged by the dealer you will get hit a second time when the goods arrive in the UK. If you want to buy from the EU some dealers will invoice VAT free so you will only be charged 20% on import. Stackers in Ireland can still buy VAT free from Estonia for the next few weeks so are there stackers meeting up in pubs across the street in N.I. I wonder ?

[dikefalos]

6 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

Yes, I remember the 7% German VAT rate very well.

One year, we took about 600 kilos of Perth Mint silver coins to the World Money Fair in Berlin. We sold out.

The next week we took another similar lot, which we had sold to a dealer, to Frankfurt.

😎

You live the dream of a flipper😉

If you come shopping to the next WMF and need a helping hand, i got a boat and could carry all your coins for free to Blackpool. Hopefully i will not have another boat accident. 😆

 

[sixgun]

1 hour ago, Pete said:

The margin scheme I believe ( please correct if I am mistaken ) has absolutely nothing to do with Brexit.
The margin scheme can also be used in the UK but our dealers choose not to use it and I don't know the reasons.
VAT in Germany is 19% but many dealers operate the margin scheme.
Until June 30 2022 the European Mint in Estonia has 0% VAT on silver coins so all EU countries can still avoid VAT on silver.
Post Brexit of course means all imports from the EU incur 20% VAT and if EU VAT has already been charged by the dealer you will get hit a second time when the goods arrive in the UK. If you want to buy from the EU some dealers will invoice VAT free so you will only be charged 20% on import. Stackers in Ireland can still buy VAT free from Estonia for the next few weeks so are there stackers meeting up in pubs across the street in N.I. I wonder ?

As i understood it the way it worked in Germany was using a loop hole in the system. The Germans imported the silver into Germany. It mostly came from the USA. It came VAT free but was taxed by German customs. Now under the normal system 19% VAT would be applied but there was an old VAT rate of 7% on silver (or whatever the number was) and the German customs applied that. The dealers then swallowed that VAT and did not claim it back - they acted as end of the value chain. The coins were subsequently sold but as second hand. There was some extra VAT on the dealers' profit but not on the actual coins.

The trick doesn't work in the UK. Dealers can import from the USA tax free but HMRC will apply 20% VAT to the coins as they are imported. So the trick doesn't work. Dealers can sell real second hand silver of course. This silver has already had full VAT paid by the guy who sold to the dealer. There will be a bit of VAT on the dealers' profit but this margin relief scheme silver often works out a bit cheaper b/c the guy who sells the silver to the dealer takes a hit and you get to benefit. 

If you keep your eyes open there is silver on TSF as good as you get from the likes of goldsilver.be. As i am inside the EU i can still buy 'VAT free' from the likes of goldsilver.be (which was usually cheaper than European Mint) but i general get it from sellers on TSF. If they happen to be inside the EU i hold the silver inside the EU and if they are in the UK i hold it in the UK. So don't think you are getting swizzed post-Brexit (well not on this count anyway). You don't have the same choice but this is about getting value - about getting silver and silver is silver at the end of the day.

[sixgun]

8 hours ago, AppleZippoandMetronome said:

Its going to depend on who you ask. What really killed it for me personally wasn't so much the VAT but the insane premiums that started being commanded back in mid to late 2020. With the VAT on top of that generic bullion was selling for well over £10/oz on top of spot. In the last two years the only silver I've bought is collectable stuff I've really wanted and I've kept up my BYB Silver Forum bar number(s).

I know the premiums are a bit better these days but I'm at a point where I've moved on. I'm happy to own the silver that I do but when I buy more PM's the focus will remain gold for now apart from the odd piece I may want to collect.

The insane premiums occurred when silver market blew up in March 2020. We have discussed this before. You can buy silver on the forum for considerably less than spot + £10, you just have to look.

[Roy]

I think HH was selling @ £22 /oz today.

[sixgun]

6 hours ago, TeaTime said:

,,,but it only seems like yesterday that i was buying sovereigns for £60 a pop.

We must be talking more than 15 years ago.

[sixgun]

6 minutes ago, Roy said:

I think HH was selling @ £22 /oz today.

Yes - and all gone now. You need to be quicker on the draw than Doc Holliday to bag these prizes.

Edited May 29, 2022 by sixgun

[Roy]

He bought cheap, there was profit @ 22. It's a long game 😎

He still has two bargain ouncers, I can't believe they've lasted the day?

[sixgun]

1 hour ago, Roy said:

He bought cheap, there was profit @ 22. It's a long game 😎

He still has two bargain ouncers, I can't believe they've lasted the day?

HelpingHands

all silver gone