Sovereign Errors, Overdates and Varieties

[Booky586]

5 hours ago, Foster88 said:

@Booky586 It looks like an R over E to me. Also as the R is the letter it should be.

Well spotted, is this a known variety?

Yes, Marsh has it listed as #45D, R over E in BRIT. It's also listed in Spink - Coins of England, as R/E in BRIT

Edited August 13, 2022 by Booky586
Typo correction

[Foster88]

Would anyone advise which Marsh number the three below sovereigns are? I think I know which but thought I’d ask opinions.

Opinions on condition and possible grade welcome.

Photos show 1860 London Mint sovereign and 2 x Sydney Mint sovereigns. Although the one on the left of the image appears the better condition, possibly cleaned? I’m not sure.

[shawy2510]

Got this back from NGC today

 

[dicker]

Not sure what's going on here.

1876 Half Sovereign - Die 86

E over something or something over E?

@GoldDiggerDave Any ideas?

 

 

[dicker]

On 26/08/2022 at 17:52, shawy2510 said:

Got this back from NGC today

 

I haven’t seen a Victoria sovereign with Lamination damage before.  Nice.  

[Booky586]

9 hours ago, dicker said:

Not sure what's going on here.

1876 Half Sovereign - Die 86

E over something or something over E?

@GoldDiggerDave Any ideas?

 

 

That's a cracker, I really like that one!

Rotated F over E?

[dicker]

6 minutes ago, Booky586 said:

That's a cracker, I really like that one!

Rotated F over E?

Struggling to work out what’s going on here!

[jultorsk]

On 08/08/2022 at 12:41, PrivateStacker195 said:

Saw this on Instagram

 

 

 

[dicker]

Additionally we also have:

1852 D over D in FID

 

1860 Something under this E?

[dicker]

I also have an 1863 Sovereign that is *startlingly* copper in tone as can be seen in the microscope photo below.  I have not seen another Sovereign with this colouring ever before (it weighs and measures spot on).

Comparing against one of the modern 'Copper toned' Sovereigns it appears *much* more copper in colour.  Sorry that my iPhone photos don't really bring out the copper tone in the side by side pictures.

 

Microscope Photo of Copper Toned 1863

(1878

 

 

[dicker]

@LawrenceChard Have you seen a similar copper coloured Shield Sovereign?

Note: The first photo is the most representative of the copper toning visible.

Best

Dicker

[Britannia47]

Small Head group in Type 1A Shield Sovereigns.

Marsh/Hill  says that Sovereigns 1838 to 1847 inclusive have a small head. These are not shown as varieties as such - just a  group until the 'larger head' appeared in 1848 it seems. However 31A (1848) is shown as a small head from group !. All this information obviously passed me by until recently! As a result I've looked very carefully at my earliest Sovereign - an 1843 and compared it with an 1857. Lo and behold I measured both heads to find out their is 1mm difference in size. So its not obvious to the eye, unlike the George V large & small head. Good luck guys with your dozens and dozens of varieties by the way! 😆

 

Edited August 29, 2022 by Britannia47

[dicker]

There are a number of Sovereign areas I want to investigate when I have time.  

The end of Victoria’s hair is one of them - I believe the design changed subtly over the years - I think evident on your comparison example.

[GoldDiggerDave]

On 27/08/2022 at 12:23, dicker said:

Not sure what's going on here.

1876 Half Sovereign - Die 86

E over something or something over E?

@GoldDiggerDave Any ideas?

 

 

Wow bit  if a mess. Strike over and a mushy die could be anything! 

[LawrenceChard]

3 hours ago, dicker said:

@LawrenceChard Have you seen a similar copper coloured Shield Sovereign?

Note: The first photo is the most representative of the copper toning visible.

Best

Dicker

I think the microscope photos are off-colour mainly because of the difficulty of ensuring good lighting on subjects very close to the objective lens.

Most of our shots with the excellent Canon MP-E 65mm f/2.8 1-5x Macro Lens look rather brutal, and not very pretty.

Sure, the 1863 sovereign on the right of the other shot does look very red. I would not be surprised by some colour variation in shield or other early sovereings, much may have depended on what they chose to alloy the gold with.

It would be interesting to get a Niton XRF analysis on it.

😎

[GoldDiggerDave]

Been reading “The Benedetto Pistrucci History 1783-1855” by Micheal A Marsh.

It’s been a great read and shows all of B.P’s works, medals, waxes, cameos.  Interesting to see this cameo of Queen Victoria on sardonyx engraved in 1836  years prior to the portrait by William Wyon, there is some striking similarities between B.P’s original and W.W interpretation some years later.

[LawrenceChard]

2 hours ago, Britannia47 said:

Small Head group in Type 1A Shield Sovereigns.

Marsh/Hill  says that Sovereigns 1838 to 1847 inclusive have a small head. These are not shown as varieties as such - just a  group until the 'larger head' appeared in 1848 it seems. However 31A (1848) is shown as a small head from group !. All this information obviously passed me by until recently! As a result I've look very carefully at my earliest Sovereign - an 1843 and compared it with an 1857. Lo and behold I measured both heads to find out their is 1mm difference in size. So its not obvious to the eye, unlike the George V large & small head. Good luck guys with your dozens and dozens of varieties by the way! 😆

 

There are other differences if you look carefully.

The larger gap between the portrait and the lettering should be obvious once you have noticed it for the first time.

😎

Edited August 29, 2022 by LawrenceChard

[LawrenceChard]

1 hour ago, dicker said:

There are a number of Sovereign areas I want to investigate when I have time.  

The end of Victoria’s hair is one of them...

What? After she went bald?

😎

[Britannia47]

2 hours ago, dicker said:

There are a number of Sovereign areas I want to investigate when I have time.  

The end of Victoria’s hair is one of them - I believe the design changed subtly over the years - I think evident on your comparison example.

 

1 hour ago, LawrenceChard said:

There are other differences if you look carefully.

The larger gap between the portait and the lettering should be obvious once you have noticed it for the first time.

😎

Thanks to you both.

Dicker, you sound far too busy at the moment on the forum to investigate Vicky’s hair. It might end up like St George’s horse - short tail, long tail etc!  😋

LC, Yes, - bloody obvious really.  I’m just a beginner….

[paulmerton]

I have the following 2022 proof sovereign with an oddity on it.

I'm curious: Particularly for a proof coin, does this sort of thing qualify as a mint error? And whatever it is, what would you call it?

I got this coin directly from the Royal Mint and it has never been removed from the capsule. In fact, the only time the capsule has even been opened was just now when I removed the base of the capsule to take these clearer photos. Apologies for the strange colour and lighting, but this was the only way I could get closeup photos.

 

[paulmerton]

Another picture with slightly different lighting, showing more clearly that the dark grease or whatever it is has affected the strike of the raised part.

[GoldDiggerDave]

1 hour ago, paulmerton said:

I have the following 2022 proof sovereign with an oddity on it.

I'm curious: Particularly for a proof coin, does this sort of thing qualify as a mint error? And whatever it is, what would you call it?

I got this coin directly from the Royal Mint and it has never been removed from the capsule. In fact, the only time the capsule has even been opened was just now when I removed the base of the capsule to take these clearer photos. Apologies for the strange colour and lighting, but this was the only way I could get closeup photos.

 

It’s a copper spot, not too un common, it’s possible to remove/reduce the appearance

[paulmerton]

25 minutes ago, GoldDiggerDave said:

It’s a copper spot, not too un common, it’s possible to remove/reduce the appearance

Are you sure? I thought copper spots would be red or dark red at worst, this looks jet black through a loupe.

[GoldDiggerDave]

22 minutes ago, paulmerton said:

Are you sure? I thought copper spots would be red or dark red at worst, this looks jet black through a loupe.

I’ve seen very dark copper spots, they can look crusty/oxide’y for a choice of words. 

You could challenge the RM and ask them what they would do you help you. 

[paulmerton]

1 minute ago, GoldDiggerDave said:

I’ve seen very dark copper spots, they can look crusty/oxide’y for a choice of words. 

You could challenge the RM and ask them what they would do you help you. 

I will ask the mint. The coin was only struck this month so hopefully it won't be too late to get something sorted out if it warrants a replacement. Thanks!