Sovereign Errors, Overdates and Varieties

[LawrenceChard]

On 30/08/2022 at 15:42, paulmerton said:

I have the following 2022 proof sovereign with an oddity on it.

I'm curious: Particularly for a proof coin, does this sort of thing qualify as a mint error? And whatever it is, what would you call it?

I got this coin directly from the Royal Mint and it has never been removed from the capsule. In fact, the only time the capsule has even been opened was just now when I removed the base of the capsule to take these clearer photos. Apologies for the strange colour and lighting, but this was the only way I could get closeup photos.

 😎

 

On 30/08/2022 at 15:50, paulmerton said:

Another picture with slightly different lighting, showing more clearly that the dark grease or whatever it is has affected the strike of the raised part.

 

I would have thought that some debris, possibly something greasy (dandruff?) had got onto the die or blank before striking, but I have seen @GoldDiggerDave's opinion, and think he is probably right.

Defo worth at least checking with the RM / and or returning it for replacement.

 

[paulmerton]

On 31/08/2022 at 21:58, LawrenceChard said:

Defo worth at least checking with the RM / and or returning it for replacement.

 

I've asked them what the black stuff is and whether a proof coin escaping from the mint in that state could constitute a mint error (as, let's face it, that's going to make it more interesting to me than having it replaced!)

I haven't got an answer to either of those questions yet. They skipped straight to offering to replace it, which I'm not entirely happy about as I struck the coin myself and so I'd end up with a coin struck by someone else but with a COA that falsely says I struck it and with a higher price tag! I've asked them to find out the answers to those questions before I decide what to do.

[LawrenceChard]

6 minutes ago, paulmerton said:

I've asked them what the black stuff is and whether a proof coin escaping from the mint in that state could constitute a mint error (as, let's face it, that's going to make it more interesting to me than having it replaced!)

I haven't got an answer to either of those questions yet. They skipped straight to offering to replace it, which I'm not entirely happy about as I struck the coin myself and so I'd end up with a coin struck by someone else but with a COA that falsely says I struck it and with a higher price tag! I've asked them to find out the answers to those questions before I decide what to do.

Demand an all - inclusive trip back there, to restrike your own.

That may also qualify as an official restrike!

😎

[paulmerton]

Just now, LawrenceChard said:

Demand an all - inclusive trip back there, to restrike your own.

That may also qualify as an official restrike!

😎

Strategically wait until next year before asking?  

[LawrenceChard]

9 minutes ago, paulmerton said:

Strategically wait until next year before asking?  

Good thinking!

But no, it might take several months to get an intelligent answer. Start now!

😎

[paulmerton]

On 31/08/2022 at 21:58, LawrenceChard said:

 

I would have thought that some debris, possibly something greasy (dandruff?) had got onto the die or blank before striking, but I have seen @GoldDiggerDave's opinion, and think he is probably right.

Defo worth at least checking with the RM / and or returning it for replacement.

 

So I just heard back from the mint. Quite an interesting response, and I'm not entirely sure what to make of it.

They said it is probably a piece of fluff that got on the die and caused the black mark when the coin was struck, but that they would not regard it as a minting error.

I have the option of returning it for a replacement (that would not be struck by me).

I'm not entirely sure what to do now. It sure sounds like an error to me if a foreign object got struck into the coin? Would NGC grade it as an error given the above information from the mint?

What would you (collective plural) do?

[LawrenceChard]

11 minutes ago, paulmerton said:

So I just heard back from the mint. Quite an interesting response, and I'm not entirely sure what to make of it.

They said it is probably a piece of fluff that got on the die and caused the black mark when the coin was struck, but that they would not regard it as a minting error.

I have the option of returning it for a replacement (that would not be struck by me).

I'm not entirely sure what to do now. It sure sounds like an error to me if a foreign object got struck into the coin? Would NGC grade it as an error given the above information from the mint?

What would you (collective plural) do?

Probably return it for replacement, but insist on getting a certificate saying "Not struck by Paul Merton on the day".

I don't think NGC would call it an error, but would probably downgrade its grade by a pip or two.

If you informed them that is was "As struck", they might record this. If they graded it lower than PF69, you should still be able to return it for replacement, but would have lost your grading costs.

BTW:

It could have been worse. This woman was "struck on the day":

 

Woman struck by a tram in Bispham near Blackpool - video ...

https://www.dailymotion.com › video

 

 

 

 

 

PREVIEW

 

 

 

0:30

Police in attendance at an incident involving a tram near the former Miners Home in Bispham.

Dailymotion · Blackpool Gazette · 6 Jun 2022

😎

[GoldDiggerDave]

20 minutes ago, paulmerton said:

So I just heard back from the mint. Quite an interesting response, and I'm not entirely sure what to make of it.

They said it is probably a piece of fluff that got on the die and caused the black mark when the coin was struck, but that they would not regard it as a minting error.

I have the option of returning it for a replacement (that would not be struck by me).

I'm not entirely sure what to do now. It sure sounds like an error to me if a foreign object got struck into the coin? Would NGC grade it as an error given the above information from the mint?

What would you (collective plural) do?

Hi Paul, I’ve had to return  a SYO sovereign, it had a bloody grease mark on the blank before it was struck because I saw the idiot operator pick the blank up with his bare fingers before it was placed into the machine.  
 

got the photos somewhere,  ask if you can go again and re strike it……

[LawrenceChard]

2 minutes ago, GoldDiggerDave said:

Hi Paul, I’ve had to return  a SYO sovereign, it had a bloody grease mark on the blank before it was struck because I saw the idiot operator pick the blank up with his bare fingers before it was placed into the machine.  
 

got the photos somewhere,  ask if you can go again and re strike it……

But then he will technically have a restrike!

😎

[paulmerton]

Just now, GoldDiggerDave said:

Hi Paul, I’ve had to return  a SYO sovereign, it had a bloody grease mark on the blank before it was struck because I saw the idiot operator pick the blank up with his bare fingers before it was placed into the machine.  
 

got the photos somewhere,  ask if you can go again and re strike it……

That's interesting, as when I did it I was the one handling the blank and placing it in the machine (with finger cots and blowing it with compressed air). I was surprised they didn't inspect it themselves before it got packaged, and I only checked out the reverse at the time so I didn't notice the black blob on the obverse until I got home.

Conversely, on my previous strike your own, the operator supervising me had a proper good look at the coin after I'd looked at it and he decided it wasn't up to scratch, rubbed part of the die with something, and then let me have another go. I didn't actually notice anything wrong with it myself, but I was hazy with excitement 🤣

[GoldDiggerDave]

1 minute ago, LawrenceChard said:

But then he will technically have a restrike!

😎

Well with the cr appy silver they are knocking out 60% of all silver coins must be restrikes, 😂😂😂I’ve sent so many back it getting to the point it costing more in paper and printer ink printing the returns label  then the coins are worth…….

I have suggested they send a free returns label with every silver coin they post but I did not think it went down well. 

[LawrenceChard]

2 minutes ago, GoldDiggerDave said:

I have suggested they send a free returns label with every silver coin they post but I did not think it went down well. 

Can't think why!

😎

[GoldDiggerDave]

1 minute ago, paulmerton said:

That's interesting, as when I did it I was the one handling the blank and placing it in the machine (with finger cots and blowing it with compressed air). I was surprised they didn't inspect it themselves before it got packaged, and I only checked out the reverse at the time so I didn't notice the black blob on the obverse until I got home.

Conversely, on my previous strike your own, the operator supervising me had a proper good look at the coin after I'd looked at it and he decided it wasn't up to scratch, rubbed part of the die with something, and then let me have another go. I didn't actually notice anything wrong with it myself, but I was hazy with excitement 🤣

Did you see how they handle them once it comes off the press?  They unceremoniously flop  them on a tea tray……I was biting my hand when I saw this.   

[paulmerton]

1 minute ago, GoldDiggerDave said:

Did you see how they handle them once it comes off the press?  They unceremoniously flop  them on a tea tray……I was biting my hand when I saw this.   

The blanks came from said tea tray (I could pick whichever one I wanted!) but it was carefully handled thereafter and packaged almost immediately.

[LawrenceChard]

4 minutes ago, GoldDiggerDave said:

Did you see how they handle them once it comes off the press?  They unceremoniously flop  them on a tea tray……I was biting my hand when I saw this.   

... and that's when someone is watching!

😎

[paulmerton]

On 14/09/2022 at 11:22, LawrenceChard said:

But then he will technically have a restrike!

😎

I just got another response from them after I raised the issue that a strike your own sovereign costs more than the struck by them version they are intending to replace it with. Essentially I'd like the difference to be refunded if they're not going to let me strike the replacement myself. They won't let me do that, and they won't refund the difference either if they replace it. I find that stance pretty disappointing.

The whole point of it to me is that it should be a sovereign that I personally struck, and it shouldn't command a premium otherwise.

It also seems fundamentally wrong to give me a replacement that wasn't struck by me but that still comes with a certificate saying it was.

"Only you will know that", they said!

[modofantasma]

26 minutes ago, paulmerton said:

Only you will know that", they said!

Not any more. It's on the internet so potentially 7 billion people know 

[LawrenceChard]

26 minutes ago, paulmerton said:

I just got another response from them after I raised the issue that a strike your own sovereign costs more than the struck by them version they are intending to replace it with. Essentially I'd like the difference to be refunded if they're not going to let me strike the replacement myself. They won't let me do that, and they won't refund the difference either if they replace it. I find that stance pretty disappointing.

The whole point of it to me is that it should be a sovereign that I personally struck, and it shouldn't command a premium otherwise.

It also seems fundamentally wrong to give me a replacement that wasn't struck by me but that still comes with a certificate saying it was.

"Only you will know that", they said!

It's a very interesting ethical and logical conundrum.

Perhaps they should give you permission to actually strike your very own sovereign, without pursuing you for counterfeiting.

I dare you to ask them!

😎

[KevjustKev]

Worth grading? Not very many on the NGC site, if so (I know it's photo) MS 66?

[paulmerton]

I got this coin today for practically the same price as a regular sovereign, so I was quite pleased with that. My first shieldback and in all honesty I'm glad it's not perfect.

There's a small die crack on the obverse (from the A of GRATIA), and some other kind of damage on the reverse (across the G in REGINA). It's obviously been caused by a damaged die rather than post mint damage to the coin.

I'm just curious what could have caused the reverse die damage? Is is a die clash or just some other kind of impact damage to the die? The protrusions look too broad to be die cracks.

(Apologies for the phone photos, but I think they look alright!) 

 

The die crack on the obverse:

The (die?) damage on the reverse (crossing the letter G)

[paulmerton]

I finally have that replacement strike-your-own-but-not-struck-by-me 2022 proof sovereign back, along with a covering letter stating that it was struck in November 2022, which is very cool.

The coin, however, not so cool.

What would you do now? I'm really losing the will to play any more rounds of this returns ping pong, but on the other hand I think it is kind of numismatically special to have a jubilee sovereign that was provably struck after September.

 

 

[Darr3nG]

1 hour ago, paulmerton said:

I finally have that replacement strike-your-own-but-not-struck-by-me 2022 proof sovereign back, along with a covering letter stating that it was struck in November 2022, which is very cool.

The coin, however, not so cool.

In the time they took to craft the response letter, could they just have looked at the coin?

[GoldDiggerDave]

On 02/12/2022 at 15:21, paulmerton said:

I got this coin today for practically the same price as a regular sovereign, so I was quite pleased with that. My first shieldback and in all honesty I'm glad it's not perfect.

There's a small die crack on the obverse (from the A of GRATIA), and some other kind of damage on the reverse (across the G in REGINA). It's obviously been caused by a damaged die rather than post mint damage to the coin.

I'm just curious what could have caused the reverse die damage? Is is a die clash or just some other kind of impact damage to the die? The protrusions look too broad to be die cracks.

(Apologies for the phone photos, but I think they look alright!) 

 

The die crack on the obverse:

The (die?) damage on the reverse (crossing the letter G)

The blank may have been scratched before it was struck for the G in Regina.

[paulmerton]

5 minutes ago, GoldDiggerDave said:

The blank may have been scratched before it was struck for the G in Regina.

No, it's definitely a damaged die - the lines stick out, they are not indentations.

[Lee499]

Newbie to collecting here folks. 
I bought one of the 2022 proof sovereigns from the royal mint and I’ve been wondering about gradings.

How much would the grading cost? Would the grading add much value to the coin when the time to sell comes around?

Planning on long time hold for all of my coins, but curious of everyone else’s past experiences.