Sovereign Errors, Overdates and Varieties

[Foster88]

6 hours ago, GoldDiggerDave said:

@Foster88 Not seen one with that bad of a die breakdown.  

Neither have I, I thought it interesting so thought I’d share it here.

Is that what would cause this, a die breakdown?

Maybe @LawrenceChard could tell us if he’s ever seen anything like this before given the number of sovereigns he’s seen.

I should add that it’s an 1888 sovereign. The year of the famous murders in Whitechapel.

[LawrenceChard]

1 hour ago, Foster88 said:

Neither have I, I thought it interesting so thought I’d share it here.

Is that what would cause this, a die breakdown?

Maybe @LawrenceChard could tell us if he’s ever seen anything like this before given the number of sovereigns he’s seen.

I should add that it’s an 1888 sovereign. The year of the famous murders in Whitechapel.

I have an alibi!

I will take a look later.

😎

[LawrenceChard]

On 14/05/2022 at 13:31, Foster88 said:

Would anyone agree that this 1858 sovereign is the unbarred ‘A’ variety in GRATIA?

Possibly broken bars, I’m not so sure.

The bars are present, but vestigial, but they probably qualify as missing

 

[LawrenceChard]

17 hours ago, Foster88 said:

I can’t say that I’ve ever seen a Jubilee Head sovereign obverse with these ‘joined letters’ before.

Has anyone ever seen this?

Photo zoomed in of obverse.

That's quite an impressive die crack!

😎

[sovereignsteve]

On 14/05/2022 at 13:31, Foster88 said:

Would anyone agree that this 1858 sovereign is the unbarred ‘A’ variety in GRATIA?

Possibly broken bars, I’m not so sure.

Logically speaking, there are only two possibilities with regard to "unbarred A" or broken A bars.

1. Broken A punches where the bar is broken off completely or partially. This is understandable as the bar will be a very thin sliver of steel and would be susceptible to damage considering how much hammer they would be subject to over their lifetime. I would imagine these punches would be used for many years in the Mint even after they show signs of damage. After all, such things wouldn't be regarded as important, who cares whether one of the letters or numbers is imperfect in some way. You do see lots of damage to the serifs on other letters as well.
This situation with the A is GRATIA is pretty common and doesn't really interest me, most people make too much of these in the interests of adding £££s to the selling price.

2. Genuine mint/engraver errors where an unside down V has been used in place of the A in GRATIA.
These are pretty rare and worthy of the cudos and value upgrade they attract.

 

[sovereignsteve]

7 hours ago, Foster88 said:

Is that what would cause this, a die breakdown?

Dies will wear and eventually fall apart under the immense stresses thay are subject to during their lifetime. Cracks will develop and gradually get worse until someone decides enough is enough and bins them.

How often they are simply left in use until they do completely breakdown and fall apart is unknown. Perhaps the deteriorating condition is noticed in "QC" which I assume they had in some form before the coins were released for circulation, and the dies taken out of use?

[Foster88]

@sovereignsteve thank you for replying and sharing your knowledge.

I should have said in my earlier post that the 1888 sovereign obverse photo is a Sydney Mint. I can’t remember if it was you or another member that said that the Australian mints would use a die more than the London Mint, despite wear related flaws to meet demand. Mostly, I suppose, due the lack of engravers at the mints down under.

I might be remembering wrong as it was some time ago but that theory would make sense. However, in my few years I’ve been collecting and studying sovereigns I don’t recall seeing any with such a die crack as obvious as that. It’s almost as if the top of the letters in VICTORIA are fractured in some way. But as you said, a very worn die. The only letter in Victoria of that sovereign that is spared is the last ‘A’!!

Now, I wonder, was this the last sovereign of that die to be minted or at least one of the last.

I suppose we’ll never know but maybe it should have gone six months prior.

@drakesterling I hope you don’t mind me mentioning you but I wonder if you’ve ever seen any like this, I don’t know how to describe it, sort of fractured/die cracked sovereigns?

[Foster88]

9 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

I have an alibi!

I will take a look later.

😎

 

[dicker]

A nice D over D (Unrecorded in Marsh) in a 1852 Sovereign.

 

The 8 in 1852 is poorly executed on the same coin.

Edited June 18, 2022 by dicker
Typo

[dicker]

T over T on a 1859 Half Sovereign

[dicker]

@GoldDiggerDave What is your opinion on the T over T?  Could just be poor engraving but to my eye looks like T over T because of the alignment. 

[dicker]

1878 S

E over ? In DEI.

Letter I ?

Numeral 1?

Best

Dicker

 

Edited June 29, 2022 by dicker

[GoldDiggerDave]

Looks like a 1 to me.

[Dakaras]

Narrow at top wider at bottom I would go for 1 , though I'm always prepared to be proved wrong by those with more experience than me.

[Booky586]

That one's a mystery. The lack of a serif on the top has me scratching my head! Sometimes part of a punch seams to disappear when you expect an impression.

[Booky586]

 

I've an example here where the E is overstruck with another E, but the top half of the original strike has disappeared. This one is listed in Marsh as "E over rotated E" but I can't see the rotation.

Edited June 30, 2022 by Booky586

[dicker]

Nice photos and nice coin!

[dicker]

@GoldDiggerDave May be able to help work out what has gone on here.  He helped me in this thread earlier on!

Best

Dicker

[GoldDiggerDave]

this is a great over strike. 

Edited June 30, 2022 by GoldDiggerDave

[GoldDiggerDave]

This is a very crude example scaling is a bit out just done it quickly to give my 10 pennies worth. It looks like it's rotated 90 deg by a partial E 

[PrivateStacker195]

Saw this on Instagram

 

 

[dicker]

49 minutes ago, PrivateStacker195 said:

Saw this on Instagram

 

 

Posted the original sale for this.  It is one of a pair for sale. Been on and off the market for the last 18 months.

[Foster88]

2 hours ago, PrivateStacker195 said:

Saw this on Instagram

 

 

I’m amazed that it wasn’t thrown back into the melting pot when it was originally minted.

[Booky586]

R over E or is it E over R? The letter E has a deeper impression than the R.

[Foster88]

@Booky586 It looks like an R over E to me. Also as the R is the letter it should be.

Well spotted, is this a known variety?