First buy! 1982 proof Sovereign. Does it look real? Urgent advice needed. Thanks!

[Clio182]

Hello chaps, last week I decided to get myself to a gold coin from the year I was born. I found a proof Sovereign on ebay and bought it for £430, plus £8 postage. The person I bought it from asked that I leave feedback once it arrives so that he be paid the money faster, I did this, but now I'm looking at the coin and wondering if it is even real. Can you have a look at it for me? Immediately on opening the capsule, lots of little pieces of plastic fell out. It looks as though it had been over tightened and shattered. Then on the George and Dragon side, looks like tarnish or fingerprints? An hour searching in lots of old boxes I found the jewelers loupe I knew I had. I've took a look at the coin closely under the illuminated loupe and just don't know if it's real or not. There appears a dark black spot on the horses neck, I don't know what this is or why it would be there, but if it's a fake perhaps a bit of plating coming off? The coin weighs 8.01g on my cheap chinese digital scales. I know it is far from proof, even if it were sold as 10/10. What I really need to know is if it is even real?

I'm a total noob at this. I've bought a number of coins from the royal mint over the years but never a gold sovereign let alone a used one from ebay advertised as 10/10 proof. Please help.

Cheers, Dan

 

 

 

Edited July 26, 2022 by Clio182
photos

[Shep]

Could do with some better pictures. Some of the obverse also perhaps?

Nothing immediately jumps out at me that is screaming fake. The dark spot on the horses neck looks to be just some of the frosting missing, which isn’t unheard of or particularly suspicious for the Royal Mint.

Other positives are that the COA, capsule and box (from what i can see) all look Royal Mint genuine issue for the given year. 

The coin is as you say clearly tarnished, but this can probably be resolved should you wish. If it was sold as a “10/10 proof” and you’re not happy with its condition you probably ought to think about sending it back, unless you can’t find one for a similar price from another source.

Welcome to the forum.

Edited July 26, 2022 by Shep

[James32]

For what it's worth, the photographs are not great but I think the box is genuine and certificate looks good, and the coin could very well be too. Really would only be guessing without better pics or the coin in hand. If weight diameter and thickness are within range,then you are probably OK based on the year of issue( some older ones could be genuine gold but fake sovereigns)

You're scales are likely not accurate enough to be honest, so you're only option is to take to a dealer/high end Jewelers for testing..

Honestly if I was in your position, I'd return coin for refund as you didn't receive a 10/10 coin, what you received is a coin that's been handled more times than Jordan's chest, unless the finger prints are your's??

You have 30 days to return, even though you left positive feedback 👀 lesson 1 has been learned 👍 only leave feedback when happy.

You're heart will never be in the purchase now so best to get out of the situation whilst you can.

 

 

[jackflash123]

Hi @Clio182

Some great advice from some knowledgeable people.

I’m by no means an expert, but we all know when something doesn’t feel right.

It’s probably a good idea to have the coin returned and get a refund, and buy a coin from a reputable dealer.

If you’re gona send it back then send by Special Delivery, just to be safe. There was a story in this forum last month about someone returning a fake gold bar back to an eBay seller, and it got lost in the post. The buyer didn’t get a refund because the seller did not receive the item back. 
 

Good luck and welcome to the forum 👍

[jackflash123]

Also someone asking for immediate feedback sounds a bit dodgy to me. You need to be certain that you’re happy with your purchase, and not make an on the spot decision, especially if you don’t know the difference between a fake and real coin.

Sounds like the seller wanted the money quickly so they could finalise the transaction and get access to the money you paid. Does the seller have a long term history in ebay and have good feedback from other buyers?

Even if they knew it was fake, they could deny it and claim they didn’t know. A rule of thumb is that if you’re advertising a product as a precious metal then you really should be sure of what you’re selling. It’s possible they are genuinely unaware if it’s real or fake, but if it is a fake you shouldn’t have to pay for their misfortune.

Good luck with your decision 👍

Edited July 26, 2022 by jackflash123

[TheShinyStuff]

If you're not 100% then return it. You'll never be happy with and besides, the capsule is busted!

I have a question though, if you haven't bought a gold coin before, particularly a proof, why on earth would you buy one from ebay?

The price you paid is the going rate, certainly not cheap. You could easily have got one for a similar price from a reputable dealer (Chards, Atkinsons etc) - but not the RM obviously who overprice these types of coins laughably. Also, you could likely have got one cheaper on this wonderful forum.

I'd send your coin back and place a wanted ad in the trade section here. You're perfectly safe buying from an established member. I'd also check with the dealers mentioned above.

Good luck, and welcome to TSF!

[Clio182]

Thanks guys. Cracking advice. Still torn on what to do though. The seller has offered me back £50 and I think I would take it and save the risk of a return if only I knew it is genuine 22ct gold. I'm thinking about taking it to a pawn shop tomorrow. The black spot is concerning me. It looks bad magnified. I don't have a good camera or setup so these are the best I can manage and it would only let me put in two photos.

Cheers for the warm welcome. I was hoping this coin would be the start of a collection. I like collecting comics and old warhammer... Why not gold coins too

 

Resized photos.

 

 

 

Edited July 26, 2022 by Clio182
photos

[dicker]

Nicely covered above.  

It is an “impaired” proof (it will always be a proof coin as defined by the strike) and for my money worth spot plus a couple of percent - so bullion value.

It might conserve well if sent to someone like @GoldDiggerDave but that more expense and it may not end as you would hope.

Send it back would be my advice.

Best

Dicker

[GoldDiggerDave]

It is really not uncommon to see proof sovereigns in this condition the good news the fogging and the flakes in the fields can be removed or reduced, I have had some very good results with this, can't do anything with the scratches in the fields on both sides of the coin which are the biggest detractor.   The back spot looks like a foreign body on the coin.   

With the light scratches and overall appearance this should have been sold as a sovereign with issues, grade c, something like that,  unfortunately it looks like someone charging top dollar for a problematic coin, unless their  sight is impaired they know it's a problematic coin.   Even £50 refund is not enough if you like the coin then £70-80 is more like it taking the coin from £430 to around £350-£360.   You would be be unlikely to even get spot for this £332 at a pawn broker or dealer. 

Stay away from Ebay mate you will get your finger burnt, also if you are taking the coin out of the capsule to handle, take photo's weight, measure than stay away from proof coins as you are extremely likely to cause damage to your own coin, stick with bullion sovereigns.  

picture below is removal of flakes and foreign bodies on a proof 1/4oz Krugerrand , can't do anything with contact marks. 

 

 

 

 

[Arganto]

On point advice from the members above. Many of us have been in the boat of buying a coin with insufficient knowledge/research, it's the lessons we learn that are important. You have eBay's purchasing guarantee, I personally would use it. The seller has dropped their guard and offered a partial refund, although this isn't an acknowledgement that they agree with you it may help if you need to involve eBay themselves. Before that I would send a message to the buyer stating it's not as described and would only be worth the same as a bullion sovereign (spot plus a couple of percent), therefore you would like a full refund. This is what I would do personally, your path is your choice obviously.

The chance of a proof issue from this period being fake is slim, although anything is possible, so you do have small lump of gold in your hand. It's just not worth the collectible proof premium.

[Orpster]

It looks real, just very abused.

It's value un-conserved would be reduced to that of its bullion equivalent though so you have over-paid quite considerably at £430.  Sounds like the seller knew what he was doing but you still have the right to request a return.  If he refuses you can open a case.  It may be negatively impacted by the fact you gave feedback but eBay does tend to support the buyer more often.  If you do return make sure you send SD and not just recorded.

[stefffana]

All the above advices are very pertinent. But...

Facts:

1. You have paid £438 for this coin.

2. Your coin is genuine , having a melting value today of £338 and a guaranteed resale value of £348 (3%premium is acceptable, having in mind box and COA). This sovereign is still looking undamaged in my eyes.

3. The seller is offering you £50 refund, reducing your loss to only £40.

 

If I'd be in your position, I would keep the coin, being my first sovereign for education and sentimental purposes, as a remembrance of my greenhorn mistake, accepting the loss. This loss will be absorbed in next few years by average costs and increasing in spot. For sure will not hurt too much.

This coin, being abused already, I would use it for experiments, to see with my eyes and to learn about removing flakes, fingerprints, dirt. I would try light acids from lemons, vinegar, alcohols, acetone, light touches of wet cotton, to see if I can make it looking better. Maybe the result will be outstanding, who knows?

If the coin will look much better, I would buy a pre-owned RM capsule from Ebay and this first sovereign from my collection will have already a good story .

All the best!

Stefan.

 

Edited July 26, 2022 by stefffana

[James32]

5 minutes ago, stefffana said:

All the above advices are very pertinent. But...

Facts:

1. You have paid £438 for this coin.

2. Your coin is genuine , having a melting value today of £338 and a guaranteed resale value of £348 (3%premium is acceptable, having in mind box and COA). This sovereign is still looking undamaged in my eyes.

3. The seller is offering you £50 refund, reducing your loss to only £40.

 

If I'd be in your position, I would keep the coin, being my first sovereign for education and sentimental purposes, as a remembrance of my greenhorn mistake, accepting the loss. This loss will be absorbed in next few years by average costs and increasing in spot. For sure will not hurt too much.

This coin, being abused already, I would use it for experiments, to see with my eyes and to learn about removing flakes, fingerprints, dirt. I would try light acids from lemons, vinegar, alcohols, acetone, light touches of wet cotton, to see if I can make it looking better. Maybe the result will be outstanding, who knows?

If the coin will look much better, I would buy a pre-owned RM capsule from Ebay and this first sovereign from my collection will have already a good story .

All the best!

Stefan.

 

Any lemonade for sale? Asking for a friend 😀

[GoldDiggerDave]

7 minutes ago, stefffana said:

All the above advices are very pertinent. But...

Facts:

1. You have paid £438 for this coin.

2. Your coin is genuine , having a melting value today of £338 and a guaranteed resale value of £348 (3%premium is acceptable, having in mind box and COA). This sovereign is still looking undamaged in my eyes.

3. The seller is offering you £50 refund, reducing your loss to only £40.

 

If I'd be in your position, I would keep the coin, being my first sovereign for education and sentimental purposes, as a remembrance of my greenhorn mistake, accepting the loss. This loss will be absorbed in next few years by average costs and increasing in spot. For sure will not hurt too much.

This coin, being abused already, I would use it for experiments, to see with my eyes and to learn about removing flakes, fingerprints, dirt. I would try light acids from lemons, vinegar, alcohols, acetone, light touches of wet cotton, to see if I can make it looking better. Maybe the result will be outstanding, who knows?

If the coin will look much better, I would buy a pre-owned RM capsule from Ebay and this first sovereign from my collection will have already a good story .

All the best!

Stefan.

 

Don’t forget the Brillo pad and wire wool. 

[GoldDiggerDave]

Squeeze the f ecker for a few more quid mate.  

[stefffana]

3 minutes ago, GoldDiggerDave said:

Don’t forget the Brillo pad and wire wool. 

Go to the naughty page, mate!😂😂😂

1 minute ago, GoldDiggerDave said:

Squeeze the f ecker for a few more quid mate.  

Yep, he can do this.😁

[Orpster]

16 minutes ago, stefffana said:

1. You have paid £438 for this coin.

Ah I must have mis-read, I had in my mind this was a half sovereign for some reason, maybe because I seem to see a lot of 82 proof half's for sale.  Means the buyers loss is not as bad as I had assumed and a £50 partial refund seems reasonable - maybe try and push for a bit more to get it close to bullion value then you can be happy with your purchase.  (potentially you can sell the box and coa as these have an intrinsic value of their own)

[Britannia47]

Looks genuine to me, down to the screw-down acrylic capsule. Mine is part of the 4 coin set. You seem to have several options as advised by others. This is a 'dirty' coin probably caused by handling or storage but the surface marks look as they could easily be removed by conservation/ cleaning. Proofs should only be removed from their capsules with care, using gloves + holding by the edges. Mine has been in its capsule for £25yrs!  However' I might be tempted to take the £50 offer and clean it myself without using the suggested 'brillo' pad!  Its at your risk.... Good luck'

[TheShinyStuff]

26 minutes ago, stefffana said:

All the above advices are very pertinent. But...

Facts:

1. You have paid £438 for this coin.

2. Your coin is genuine , having a melting value today of £338 and a guaranteed resale value of £348 (3%premium is acceptable, having in mind box and COA). This sovereign is still looking undamaged in my eyes.

3. The seller is offering you £50 refund, reducing your loss to only £40.

 

If I'd be in your position, I would keep the coin, being my first sovereign for education and sentimental purposes, as a remembrance of my greenhorn mistake, accepting the loss. This loss will be absorbed in next few years by average costs and increasing in spot. For sure will not hurt too much.

This coin, being abused already, I would use it for experiments, to see with my eyes and to learn about removing flakes, fingerprints, dirt. I would try light acids from lemons, vinegar, alcohols, acetone, light touches of wet cotton, to see if I can make it looking better. Maybe the result will be outstanding, who knows?

If the coin will look much better, I would buy a pre-owned RM capsule from Ebay and this first sovereign from my collection will have already a good story .

All the best!

Stefan.

 

 

16 minutes ago, GoldDiggerDave said:

Squeeze the f ecker for a few more quid mate.  

Fair points, but probably better to just return it. Why lose £50+ when you don't have to? Return it and buy smarter next time. Unless of course £430 is of no consequence to you, in which case lucky you!

Edited July 26, 2022 by TheShinyStuff

[TheShinyStuff]

7 minutes ago, Britannia47 said:

Looks genuine to me, down to the screw-down acrylic capsule. Mine is part of the 4 coin set. You seem to have several options as advised by others. This is a 'dirty' coin probably caused by handling or storage but the surface marks look as they could easily be removed by conservation/ cleaning. Proofs should only be removed from their capsules with care, using gloves + holding by the edges. Mine has been in its capsule for £25yrs!  However' I might be tempted to take the £50 offer and clean it myself without using the suggested 'brillo' pad!  Its at your risk.... Good luck'

I bet you didn't pay £438 for yours!😀

[Britannia47]

12 hours ago, TheShinyStuff said:

I bet you didn't pay £438 for yours!😀

Actually I paid a bit more - £440. but that was for the whole set in 1997!😄 

Apologies, I paid £660!  -  got mixed up with my 1994 Panda set!  I should keep better records.

Edited July 26, 2022 by Britannia47

[TheShinyStuff]

1 hour ago, Britannia47 said:

Actually I paid a bit more - £440. but that was for the whole set in 1997!😄

The whole set in 1997, so about £445 then!!!

[Simmoleon]

About a year ago, I bought a number of proofs off a dealer which had been taken out of their capsules and stored in all sorts of flips etc. My brain said leave them and the collector in me said get them conserved. The mis-handled coins which hurt the most were a couple of 2013 proof sovereigns and half sovereigns. After conservation they looked undoubtedly better but the grades weren’t great regardless - PF64 and PF66. Many of the other coins came back looking fantastic with a 1992, 2005 and 2012 half sovereigns all getting 70s. Looking at this coin, conservation may help it but not sure it would get a grade that would offset the cost of the process.

[LawrenceChard]

6 hours ago, dicker said:

It is an “impaired” proof (it will always be a proof coin as defined by the strike) and for my money worth spot plus a couple of percent - so bullion value.

 

Well said!

I would have thought 5 - 10% over intrinsic.

😎

[LawrenceChard]

19 hours ago, Clio182 said:

Hello chaps, last week I decided to get myself to a gold coin from the year I was born. I found a proof Sovereign on ebay and bought it for £430, plus £8 postage. The person I bought it from asked that I leave feedback once it arrives so that he be paid the money faster, I did this, but now I'm looking at the coin and wondering if it is even real. Can you have a look at it for me? Immediately on opening the capsule, lots of little pieces of plastic fell out. It looks as though it had been over tightened and shattered. Then on the George and Dragon side, looks like tarnish or fingerprints? An hour searching in lots of old boxes I found the jewelers loupe I knew I had. I've took a look at the coin closely under the illuminated loupe and just don't know if it's real or not. There appears a dark black spot on the horses neck, I don't know what this is or why it would be there, but if it's a fake perhaps a bit of plating coming off? The coin weighs 8.01g on my cheap chinese digital scales. I know it is far from proof, even if it were sold as 10/10. What I really need to know is if it is even real?

I'm a total noob at this. I've bought a number of coins from the royal mint over the years but never a gold sovereign let alone a used one from ebay advertised as 10/10 proof. Please help.

Cheers, Dan

 

Whenever you buy any coins, bullion, precious metal, and other stuff, on ebay you need to be aware whether it may be genuine, as described, or whether it even exists.

Unless you know what you are doing, and are getting it cheap, ebay is better avoided.

I always advise including a link to the ebay listing if asking advice on TSF, for various reasons, including:

It can help other TSF members to help you more quickly and easily.

If the same dealer crops up frequently, it can give important clues.

...

As others have now said, it looks genuine, but tatty.

Be wary of ebay buyers / sellers trying to rush you into instant feedback, there are many dodgy buyers and sellers on ebay.

It is still not too late to add the listing link, and seller's name / link here for future reference.

😎😎

 

Edited July 26, 2022 by LawrenceChard