The future of silver, VAT and import charges into the UK now a Deal has been done!?

[Stacktastic]

46 minutes ago, sixgun said:

It will be interesting to see how prices develop on the selling side of the forum. Most buyers and sellers are UK based. The 'cheaper' silver route will be closed to these members. What will happen to the selling prices? The competition from the likes of goldsilver.be and the European Mint will fade. Will sellers take advantage and add 10 or 15% onto their silver selling prices?

The higher prices seem a blow and certainly a blow if you had decided at the end of the day you were going to sell your stack to a dealer who offers you the spot price for silver. 
If prices on the forum did rise by 10% but silver stackers bought and sold inside the forum it is not such a blow. You pay 10% more but you sell for 10% more. It is only when you pay VAT but then can't recoup that extra cost on selling. For those of us who held the line and kept the faith - filling our boots when silver was unloved and as cheap as chips, well this is an added bonus. 

i was listening to Andrew Maguire this morning. He was going over various silver charts - he said he was convinced silver would get back to the high of 2011 during 2021 and price would quite possibly go higher. What that means in terms of GBP is another matter. Maguire does get quite excited sometimes but here i am also in agreement with him. i see strong prices for silver - but i have always played that tune and sung that song even in the dark days of a few years ago. 

One of the main things to consider is that silver is still massively undervalued so its a cheap asset to buy. 
Assuming it breaks out and the banks or what ever loose thier control on it the VAT is not much, if bought at half its current value. 
If you do buy it now at, say £22 an ounce, the VAT should get wiped out should the price go up to £44 an ounce. 
Ideally £300 an ounce, but I would settle with £100

Is VAT applicable on second hand silver sold in the UK privately then? 

[sixgun]

4 minutes ago, Stacktastic said:

Is VAT applicable on second hand silver sold in the UK privately then? 

The VAT has already been paid when the item was bought in the first instance.

[Stacktastic]

3 minutes ago, sixgun said:

The VAT has already been paid when the item was bought in the first instance.

But not for all the people that have bought from Europe and want to sell (like the tube of 2021 brits I have).
Or people that have bought from forum members that buy in bulk from Europe?

Will members add extra to that then even if they have not paid VAT in the first place?
It seems logical that you would charge the going rate I guess, maybe a bit less? 

Anyone with a monster box of brits could accrue an extra 20% basically, before even making a profit on increased spot? 

[sixgun]

Private sales are private sales. If you are not registered for VAT you don't charge VAT. 
Who the hell knows a private sale has happened most of the time anyway?
People will sell for what they can get - what the buyer is willing to pay.
At the moment UK buyers can get cheaper silver from the Continent. When that opportunity disappears i suspect selling prices will rise. People think in terms of the prices they can buy at elsewhere and if all those prices are only VAT included, then that will be the reference price.

[silversky]

1 minute ago, sixgun said:

Private sales are private sales. If you are not registered for VAT you don't charge VAT. 
Who the hell knows a private sale has happened most of the time anyway?
People will sell for what they can get - what the buyer is willing to pay.
At the moment UK buyers can get cheaper silver from the Continent. When that opportunity disappears i suspect selling prices will rise. People think in terms of the prices they can buy at elsewhere and if all those prices are only VAT included, then that will be the reference price.

Two days ago the reference price was in Europe for a delivery today.  Today the reference price is with a handful of bullion dealers in the UK who mostly deal in gold. Even if the German dealers get themselves registered with HMRC, they'll likely end up equal or more expensive than British dealers due to shipping and handling costs.  With time the second hand market will likely rise just because the supply of new silver has been artificially restricted.  It still might change in the next budget which will probably be huge.

[blindedbythelight]

BYB when are you going to organize the first silver forum group pirate/smuggling run to Estonia?

[BackyardBullion]

1 minute ago, blindedbythelight said:

BYB when are you going to organize the first silver forum group pirate/smuggling run to Estonia?

Well, considering the very public profile I have I fear the smuggling would not be particularly effective!

[Chorlton]

I have the right vehicle for your trip aboard😇

 

[Gruff]

Maybe we arrange a "coach trip to the continent", we all take a single change of clothes and load up on silver and gold 

[stackerp5]

On 29/12/2020 at 13:56, BackyardBullion said:

Metal value rather than face value is the rule of thumb

Do you know of any legal or registered cases where the face value was accepted instead of the metal value?

What if it is old coinage, still metal value, even if collectible?

[silverscotty]

so you could for example order and pay for a monster box of silver coins online from a european dealer pay no VAT,  jump on a ferry or cheap day return flight collect in person and physically bring the coins back to your UK home tariff free and VAT free happy days...😊

[BackyardBullion]

8 minutes ago, stackerp5 said:

Do you know of any legal or registered cases where the face value was accepted instead of the metal value?

What if it is old coinage, still metal value, even if collectible?

The idea is that it is fair market value of the item.

I am not aware of any cases where face value has been accepted over metal or collectable value.

[Pete]

41 minutes ago, blindedbythelight said:

BYB when are you going to organize the first silver forum group pirate/smuggling run to Estonia?

Just for fun I checked return flights from Gatwick to Tallinn with EasyJet.
Return flight was less than £100 but there were only flights Thursdays and Sundays so you need to stay a few nights in a hotel.
Such a holiday would cost around £360 plus your meals etc.
In order to recover £360 in VAT savings ( at 20% ) that means you need to buy a minimum of £1800 of silver.
My initial thought was how about buying 6 ounces of platinum coins and just carrying them in your trouser pocket, mixed with loose change and when you pass through the metal scanners just place all your coins in a small plastic bag. The authorities are looking for drugs, weapons and explosives.

I reckon it would be easier to Eurostar or Ferry to the Continent on an off-peak day package.
 

[BackyardBullion]

20 minutes ago, Pete said:

Just for fun I checked return flights from Gatwick to Tallinn with EasyJet.
Return flight was less than £100 but there were only flights Thursdays and Sundays so you need to stay a few nights in a hotel.
Such a holiday would cost around £360 plus your meals etc.
In order to recover £360 in VAT savings ( at 20% ) that means you need to buy a minimum of £1800 of silver.
My initial thought was how about buying 6 ounces of platinum coins and just carrying them in your trouser pocket, mixed with loose change and when you pass through the metal scanners just place all your coins in a small plastic bag. The authorities are looking for drugs, weapons and explosives.

I reckon it would be easier to Eurostar or Ferry to the Continent on an off-peak day package.
 

So, the problem with all of this is that yes, it probably wouldn't be hard to go to Europe and bring back silver/platinum and get through the border in the UK without being stopped, checked and taxed. If fact, I would argue it will be very easy.

The problem is that it is illegal and can get you in some significant hot water if caught in or after the fact.

That's no way to do business let alone go about buying silver.

[Silverman2U]

2 minutes ago, BackyardBullion said:

So, the problem with all of this is that yes, it probably wouldn't be hard to go to Europe and bring back silver/platinum and get through the border in the UK without being stopped, checked and taxed. If fact, I would argue it will be very easy.

The problem is that it is illegal and can get you in some significant hot water if caught in or after the fact.

That's no way to do business let alone go about buying silver.

Yep, not exact the best way to build a business model. lol

Everyone will be in the same boat, its trying to find the work around. There will be one.

Edited December 31, 2020 by Silverman2U

[silversky]

1 hour ago, Silverman2U said:

Yep, not exact the best way to build a business model. lol

Everyone will be in the same boat, its trying to find the work around. There will be one.

A while back there was someone trying to use the code for collectors coins on import which appeared to carry a lower VAT rate with the revenue.  Apparently though, even when the code was assigned clearly on the parcel documents, the guys at the border or post office just applied 20% anyway.  There then followed a long battle to point out that the consolidated shipping code actually has a reduced rate of VAT and they needed a refund.  I believe it was something to do with having numismatic value rather than just being bullion.  I didn't hear what the outcome was.  Clearly coins in sets will have some numismatic value because they are collectors items and not just investment, however, what the revenue considers numismatic may not include the like of the QB's and its a grey area as always. I think the lower VAT rate was 5% if my memory serves me correctly.  Perhaps if you're reading this and you were the person who was trying this approach you might be kind enough to share the details with us and how it all ended up?  Many thanks.

[silversky]

1 hour ago, BackyardBullion said:

So, the problem with all of this is that yes, it probably wouldn't be hard to go to Europe and bring back silver/platinum and get through the border in the UK without being stopped, checked and taxed. If fact, I would argue it will be very easy.

The problem is that it is illegal and can get you in some significant hot water if caught in or after the fact.

That's no way to do business let alone go about buying silver.

Hot water AND all of your silver confiscated!!!  

[BackyardBullion]

9 minutes ago, silversky said:

A while back there was someone trying to use the code for collectors coins on import which appeared to carry a lower VAT rate with the revenue.  Apparently though, even when the code was assigned clearly on the parcel documents, the guys at the border or post office just applied 20% anyway.  There then followed a long battle to point out that the consolidated shipping code actually has a reduced rate of VAT and they needed a refund.  I believe it was something to do with having numismatic value rather than just being bullion.  I didn't hear what the outcome was.  Clearly coins in sets will have some numismatic value because they are collectors items and not just investment, however, what the revenue considers numismatic may not include the like of the QB's and its a grey area as always. I think the lower VAT rate was 5% if my memory serves me correctly.  Perhaps if you're reading this and you were the person who was trying this approach you might be kind enough to share the details with us and how it all ended up?  Many thanks.

@sixgun I might be incorrect but was this you?

[sixgun]

There is a whole thread on this

 

[KeithSilver]

I bought quite a lot of Silver from the European Mint whilst living in Germany as postage prices were less making the deal worth it when buying over 200Euros worth. Great whilst it lasted!!

I think a lot of Europeans Mint's business comes from the UK which they will now loose out. I also doubt the EU will let import free VAT last for much longer anyway (in my opinion).

Does this not mean Silver prices will rise which is what everyone wants??

Or are people worried about making money on buying low, importing and selling at UK prices?

[Pete]

20 minutes ago, silversky said:

A while back there was someone trying to use the code for collectors coins on import which appeared to carry a lower VAT rate with the revenue.  Apparently though, even when the code was assigned clearly on the parcel documents, the guys at the border or post office just applied 20% anyway.  There then followed a long battle to point out that the consolidated shipping code actually has a reduced rate of VAT and they needed a refund.  I believe it was something to do with having numismatic value rather than just being bullion.  I didn't hear what the outcome was.  Clearly coins in sets will have some numismatic value because they are collectors items and not just investment, however, what the revenue considers numismatic may not include the like of the QB's and its a grey area as always. I think the lower VAT rate was 5% if my memory serves me correctly.  Perhaps if you're reading this and you were the person who was trying this approach you might be kind enough to share the details with us and how it all ended up?  Many thanks.

I have used the code 97.05.00.020 to get silver coins imported at the reduced VAT rate of 5% shipped from the USA and Australia.
I had to pay 20% initially then file a claim with the Border Force ( www.hmrc.gov.uk ) based in Coventry CV3 4HX who fairly quickly refunded the difference.
It applies to numismatic and collectible coins so not worth trying on regular bullion, but if a bullion coin is a bit special and priced well above the cheap coins, there should not be any problem but you need to provide enough evidence to back up your claim.
 

[Paul]

or everyone could just just chill their boots & buy VAT free, delivery free, import duty free from the likes of bullionvault for six months while see where the lie of the land is

* See what is charged and what is not. 

* What's the best way to get things through, which ate the best work arounds

* What's best to mark silver as on CN22 docs ( medals, coins, gift, token )

* See whether some Del Boy type does the smuggle run from Europe to UK and reap the VAT free rewards on their return. For all we will know they will be sold via the forum, ebay or via Facebook silver groups

in the grand plan of things silver is a fly on a elephants back with some of the more pressing things in this Brexit withdrawal. 

When it on pure numbers & percentages, physical/in your hand silver pound for pound will still be a rip off, uncompetitive, & overpriced and the same it always has been.

So in essence nothing has changed tomorrow, it has just got more expensive to the less expensive overpriced silver it was yesterday/today

Edited December 31, 2020 by Paul

[Pete]

27 minutes ago, KeithSilver said:

I bought quite a lot of Silver from the European Mint whilst living in Germany as postage prices were less making the deal worth it when buying over 200Euros worth. Great whilst it lasted!!

I think a lot of Europeans Mint's business comes from the UK which they will now loose out. I also doubt the EU will let import free VAT last for much longer anyway (in my opinion).

Does this not mean Silver prices will rise which is what everyone wants??

Or are people worried about making money on buying low, importing and selling at UK prices?

If you ever visit Norway be prepared for a serious shock buying a beer or whisky in a bar.
Norwegians haven't stopped drinking knowing that their drinks are taxed to to the hilt.
People in London nightclubs also pay through the nose for cocktails but this is "spending" or "burning" money.
Stacking silver in the UK as an investment cannot be compared but knowing that just over the English Channel the metal will cost 20% less from tomorrow is daunting.

[Martlet]

37 minutes ago, KeithSilver said:

...

Or are people worried about making money on buying low, importing and selling at UK prices?

Yes, in a nutshell. 

[Stacktastic]

3 hours ago, Silverman2U said:

Everyone will be in the same boat.

Fabulous idea, now your talking!! 😛

Edited December 31, 2020 by Stacktastic