New Gold Coin and Bar Testers

[EON]

Hi

     My name is Rory Roberts, I am the inventor of some new gold coin and bar testers. The products are currently in development, but all have the PCT global Patent. I am very keen to get feedback and interest from knowledgeable gold and silver enthusiasts, I want to work with you to make the products perfect. 

I'm posting a link to the video of the Products. 

I look forward to an interesting discussion.

Thanks

Rory

 

[HerefordBullyun]

Wow Rory great business venture! Congrats on your hard work and Due diligence to make the product better.

Sadly I dont own much gold so i wouldnt be a very good tester. But happy that you send me say 30 bullion 1oz Briitannias as payment Id happy succume to your needs!

Only joking welcome to forum Im sure some guys and gals will help you out!

Best HB🐮👍

Edited September 15, 2021 by HerefordBullyun

[Pete]

Very nice video.
Simple idea of using a swinging magnet to induce eddies and use the back emf to oppose the magnet.
Worked extremely well in your presentation and often simple ideas are the best so congratulations !!

Couple of points since you asked -

This is a product that would look nice in a glass case in a nautical museum along with brass clocks and telescopes.
For hobby stackers ( i.e. mainly us SF folks ) metal testers should be much more basic ( and less expensive no doubt ) and would work fine.
I may build my own simple rig using a suspended Nd magnet and stop watch to test the principles.
As I don't have any fakes of course I cannot compare results.

If you wanted to test a specific gold coin you would need to have some sort of reference to determine authenticity.
At some stage a database would be important so users can check their coins against target numbers.

I assume this pendulum would similarly work for silver coins and bars ?

Many magnets loose some of their magnetism over years and how they are stored, so how would this affect your instrument and with use ( or not ) would people be able to share their data and expect the same results ?

 

 

[EON]

32 minutes ago, HerefordBullyun said:

Wow Rory great business venture! Congrats on your hard work and Due diligence to make the product better.

Sadly I dont own much gold so i wouldnt be a very good tester. But happy that you send me say 30 bullion 1oz Briitannias as payment Id happy succume to your needs!

Only joking welcome to forum Im sure some guys and gals will help you out!

Best HB🐮👍

Thanks for the Welcome, The bullion is in the mail!!!.... lol

[EON]

Hi Pete

Thanks for your comments. Yes its a pretty simple idea, the simpler the ideas the better hopefully. Although the eonbullion.com website is not up yet ( october 30th launch date). The website will have all the readings for the authentic  coins. This does work for both gold and silver coins and bars. 

One of the aspects i am looking for feedback on is price. I am trying to establish what people might pay, the idea is to make these affordable while still keeping the aesthetic and beauty. What price might convince you not to go off and build your own?

The testers have a calibration function built in to the PCB to eliminate variance due to environmental factors.

Thanks again

Feedback very much appreciated!

[Tn21]

Just throwing a figure out there not knowing the costs of the components, labor etc. 

£60-£150 mark depending on whether it can guarantee results. 

 

[Pete]

Rory,

Your polished brass instrument is something that would perhaps appeal to the well-heeled as a special gift for sitting on their mahogany desk.
For us 'simpletons' I would imagine this lovely looking "instrument" would be rather pricey.
If you are looking to sell modest quantities of instruments then it is the price vs volume trade-off.
There are more and more fakes, both silver and gold, turning up on mainly sites like eBay.
Experienced collectors can generally spot a fake BUT as the fakes get better and buyers trust their judgment then there is still a risk so some might want a reliable detector.
A full sovereign costs around £320 today and if someone is planning to accumulate say 100 gold coins over the years then paying £300 for a reliable tester seems reasonable as the cost of only one sovereign.

With silver coins typically costing £25 - £30 then unless the collector is stacking maybe 500 then paying more than £50 for a tester might have them hesitate.
Of course I am assuming the production model is made of aluminium or plastic and not brass.
The lovely brass instrument is, in my opinion, the unusual deluxe special present rather than a stackers "tool".

It will be interesting to see what others think.
Good luck with your venture.

PS - have you considered manufacturing a coin tester using the "ping test" ?
Coins have resonant frequencies that can be recorded - audio spectrum analysis.
The difficulty in testing using this method is striking the coin and suspending it to give an undampened ring.
A simple tap, microphone and spectral analysis using free software like Audacity will generate easily identifiable resonant spikes that can be used to characterise each coin.
I spent some time several years ago exploring this method with very good results just for fun.

 

[EON]

Thanks Tn21! Appreciate the estimate.

Hi Pete

There are three products featured in the Video

1. The Gold Coin Tester (offline) 

I am thinking this is a premium model, for those who not only want to test their coins but also want a library piece. 

2. The Gold/Silver  Coin measurement board, these will be made out of anodized aluminium and have a nice finish. And should be affordable to all.

3. The IOT Coin tester, which sends the data over bluetooth or wifi to your account, this would be the more common and affordable model.

I have prices in mind for the three of them based off the manufacturing costs, but i don't want to influence the feedback.

I also have looked into the analysis of the sound the bullion makes using fast fourier transforms, this might be something I incorporate into the model later on.

However the measurement of weight, dimension and conductivity should be sufficient to authenticate any coin or bar from my analysis.

Pete - nice to meet another physics enthusiast the same as myself, Thanks Again for taking the time to comment.

I think we can all agree that the testers are becoming more necessary, its worth checking out the fake coin in the video, these are practically indistinguishable! 

  

 

 

 

[Gordy]

Lovely piece of kit mate, a real boys toy.... and great design... makes me want to go and buy more gold just so i can justify it when it comes on sale (price depending obviously) i wouldn't be able to comment on what i'd be prepared to pay as i have no knowledge of development time/hours, production costs etc etc etc, but i can guarantee i couldn't make one myself.... look forward to seeing more info and costs in the future... 

[EON]

Thanks Gordy

  The motivation for making these was when I bought a few coins, and once I received them I got a bit of trepidation as to whether or not they were real. Then having done the research on the testers that were out there, I couldn't find much non destructive tests for less than a grand. The overview of Testing Market would include

XRF Testers - which are 5K and up

Traditional Conductivity Testers - Which involve filing the bullion and are generally 500 and up.

Ultrasonic testers -generally over 700.

Eddy Current testers (of which this is one) - but generally over a 1K

Thanks for your comments, I'm glad you like it, its supposed to be fun. Gold and Silver is Aesthetically pleasing, why shouldn't the testers be

I have a google form at the bottom of the video, if you want to be kept informed of its development (no obligation), or join the queue for the first models.

On making them, even though the concept is simple, the electronics is a bit more complicated, so obviously making them in bulk will result in a much better offering.

The more interest I get the cheaper I can make them essentially. 

The Coin Measuring Board is ready to go, it will cost less than 100, once i get sufficient interest i will manufacture and post the first batch.

Good discussion so far!

Thanks to all

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[dicker]

I really like the idea and the design.

The version in your video does appear to be a premium product and I suspect would have a premium price - deservedly.

I am far from a product specialist but as a collector of coins, I would like one that did not cost thousands

Best

Dicker

[Arcadian]

I could see it replacing a Newton’s cradle in the CEO’s office, but for many I think the ping tester would be first stop.

[MickB]

Nice bit of kit, good work there.  The swinging pendulum rig could be possibly made out of acrylic with brass bushes in the side for the pendulum piece for a cheaper design. The Chinese would most probably copy your design & go on from there with the cheaper side of manufacturing. CNC lasercut parts are quite easy to program into a machine nowadays. They don't care about copyright.

Overall, a decent design that looks stylish, I'm impressed!

[EON]

Thanks Guys,

Let me narrow it down a little more, The IOT tester will certainly be under 500 Pounds/Euro

And the premium product I will certainly be under 1000 Euro/ Pounds aswell.

This is what i am hearing so far and is in line with my expectations.

If you want updates, you can register interest here, don't worry I won't spam, just updates on major milestones.

https://docs.google.com/forms/d/1sgnA1heYqksAkRoiVujkEYloiDWjtDWGlFg8J_a_l_8/edit?usp=sharing

Very interesting feedback!   

[SlowFrog]

Nice product! Does indeed look premium and expensive.

From my perspective, I don't have enough to justify spending a lot. I rely on a combination of methods inc a neodymium magnet, measurements, weight, a loupe for visual issues and a 'ping test' comparison. Sometimes I might even go as far as a specific gravity test with some distilled water and a bit of thread!

Given all that, I think I'd be tempted to go for a reliable testing option if it was under £250 - anything above and it probably doesn't make too much sense for me personally.

Best of luck regardless! 

[KevinFlynn]

The brass model looks so nice, I would put it on my desk for sure, though it would depend on the price. €400 would be easy, up to €500 doable, anything above that would hurt.

Is there a minimum size of tested object before it becomes inaccurate?

Can this be used for Platinum as well? It feels like there's a base difference between Gold/Silver and Platinum physics.

[EON]

Hi Kevin

Yes indeed your correct, both gold and silver are diamagnetic, which means they have a slight repulsive force on a magnet. Platinum is slightly paramagnetic. in theory it should work, but there would be some interference between the magnetic and conductive forces. It is something on my checklist to investigate once i come across some platinum.

The test will work for up to 1 gram of gold or silver, below that, there is really no point testing, we adjust the proximity by using a larger platform, which increases the sensitivity of pendulum.

Thanks for the feedback!

[Pete]

I would imagine most serious stackers have these ( or similar ) tools to measure coin diameters and centre thickness.
Thin protruding rims on some gold coins can be an issue in passing through fixed slots and some coins don't have an exact thickness specification because of this.

[Skyfiller]

Love the old fashioned scientific equipment look and would probably get one for conversational sake. Would it work through a coin capsule?

[SilverStorm]

Hi Eon:

Thank you for posting!   I am in the market for more testing equipment, and yours is definitely very intriguing!  The most expensive testing equipment I currently use is my Sigma Metalytics PMV Pro Mini.   I watched your YouTube video and have several questions: 

1) Will your EON gold coin tester come with a glass or acrylic case?  As @Petehas mentioned, it will look great as a stand alone display piece.

2) I understand that the gold coin tester uses the pendulum to count the swings to determine the authenticity of real gold.   Your reading of 60 shows that it's real.  Could you please explain how this tester works for the layman who wants a better understanding of this device.

3) Can the pendulum height be adjusted to test thicker (ie taller) gold or silver bars?   What's the maximum size of precious metal that your tester will work on?

4) What are the limitations of the gold coin tester and IOT tester?  

5) In your reply to Tn21, you mentioned that the IOT Coin tester sends data over bluetooth or wifi to your account.   Is this account website based or can it be downloaded onto your personal computer or tablet?   And if website based, will there be membership fees to access the data?   I'm definitely not in favor if there are fees involved.    

That's all I have for now.  Will probably have more questions for you later.  Thanks!

 

[danmc82]

I think 2 versions would be a good idea. The one in the video to be displayed, and another "Cheaper" Version made out of lesser materials.

The competition is obviously the electronic Sigma at around £800 - £900.

My choice if they were both the same price would be the Sigma, as it has an established fan base.

If the pendulum was half the price of the SIgma, I would go for yours.

 

 

 

[EON]

Hi

Great questions. Thank You

1. Yes it can test through any non conductive packaging.

2. The glass or acrylic case is something that could be easily added. Good feedback.

3. A brief explanation of the physics is as follows. There is a force generated when a conductive body moves in a magnetic field ( or vice versa), this is called an electromotive force, or an eddy current. Silver and gold are the first and third most conductive metals respectively. By measuring, what’s called the dampening effect on the pendulum, and calibrating out the force due to gravity and frictions, we are left with a measurement of the conductivity of the bullion.

Each bullion coin on the market will have a distinct and unique conductivity, this together with the weight and dimension of the coin, tells you the exact composition of the coin in terms of its make up, purity etc.

I hope that’s not too complicated. In summary the motion of the pendulum measures the conductivity of the coin.

4. For gold the device shown can test up too 250 grams. For silver up to 50 grams. This is because of the relative strengths of the dampening forces. After this weights the motion will become over damped, but different sizes of the device can cater for different sizes of bullion.

5. The limitations, this is a good question. As Pete mentions above there is a very slight loss in magnetic strength of a magnet over time. However this is over a period of over 20 years to be noticeable, and is compensated for by the “Tare” functionality. The IOT device can be re calibrated over the internet, we will provide a calibration test sample of some metal like copper.

The scientific method is such that we propose a best solution at anyone time. To my understanding, and across my many consultations, the test will be very hard to beat, if possible at all in the future. 

6. These are being sold as stand alone, with the website account being used to build up a database of results from the coins or bars. For instance with the iot device we can build a database on the counterfeit coins or bars also, we can then advise from the reading if your coin matches a known counterfeit. The plan is to open up precious metal ownership to people, by removing barriers to entry. So the IOT model will be supplied as stand alone, and we will be very transparent about pricing.  Although this does not exclude the possibility of a subsidized model that is subscription based in the future.

I hope that helps, 

Thank you for your Questions

Rory

 

 

 

[HerefordBullyun]

Im astounded by your physics wizardary Rory!

Can we go to mordor and meet the princesses?

I dont understand it as I only have a D in woodwork as I was too busy smoking snouts behind the back of bikesheds or trying to get off with one off the girls in the back of the biology class at school. 

I guess thats why I dont understand it, but its all clever stuff.

Really good work mate, I hope you make sucess of it!

[EON]

Your very kind,

I love physics, I do also have a science degree in mathematical physics which does help.

I’m learning a lot from the feedback, 

I really appreciate it

the more questions and challenges the better!

 

 

 

[Skyfiller]

2 hours ago, EON said:

 

4. For gold the device shown can test up too 250 grams. For silver up to 50 grams. This is because of the relative strengths of the dampening forces. After this weights the motion will become over damped, but different sizes of the device can cater for different sizes of bullion.

 

Hi Rory,

You mention maximums, what about minimums as some gold coins are quite small?