TeaTime

I am terrible at saving - i literally have to spend any spare money i have. I recognised that i may have unresolved issues from my childhood....
My options were to see a therapist or turn my psychological need to be skint into an asset. Spending my fiat on precious metals works for me - I end up with 'money' that has to be converted into fiat before spending.  Adding that extra step allows me to have savings like 'normal' people.
Everything else (the collecting aspect and drooling over my stash like Scrooge McDuck) is a bonus.
True story.

The reason I started stacking was all the women that comes along with it. 

Not knocking what people do for themselves, but as grading appears to be quite subjective this is one of the reasons I personally don't bother with graded coins. Farcical may be a touch mean but it's certainly not a clear cut process. Unless they're a steal price-wise of course 😜

NGC states 'Larger and more distracting spots will result in lower grades.....Heavily spotted coins may receive an NGC Details Grade with an Environmental Damage notation' and to get a 70 designation -'NGC defines a Mint State or Proof 70 coin as having no post-production imperfections at 5x magnification'..... So what happens if the white spots occur as part of the production process and the coin is otherwise mint ?
As for letting white spots on rarer coins get a free pass but penalising high mintage modern coins for the same issues - If that were true then the whole grading process would be a farce. The grade should bear no relevance to the scarcity of the coin, only the condition.

NGC states 'Larger and more distracting spots will result in lower grades.....Heavily spotted coins may receive an NGC Details Grade with an Environmental Damage notation' and to get a 70 designation -'NGC defines a Mint State or Proof 70 coin as having no post-production imperfections at 5x magnification'..... So what happens if the white spots occur as part of the production process and the coin is otherwise mint ?
As for letting white spots on rarer coins get a free pass but penalising high mintage modern coins for the same issues - If that were true then the whole grading process would be a farce. The grade should bear no relevance to the scarcity of the coin, only the condition.

My view is... and why I am keeping my set...is that we will know in a few years what the actual sale was and if 30% went back and didn't get resold then the mintage is even lower 🤣

Thought I remembered this in the deep recesses of my mind. Finally found it!😊
 

Random thoughts;
I don't believe that surface contaminants have increased in modern times - just the opposite in fact. So that leaves a change in how coins are produced as the culprit. Any mint should be easily able to identify when a process change happened. If they believe it's a modern phenomena and had the will to do it...
Maybe it's a simple case of quality control - spotted proof coins that would have historically been melted are now deemed suitable to be sent out to the punters. As for milk spots appearing post-production - could it be that natural toning of the coins hid the underlying spotting issue ?
Bullion coins - could it be that historically no-one collecting silver bullion actually cared about surface blemishes ?  Is this pre-occupation with receiving flawless coins tied to the massive premiums we now pay ? Does speculation play a big part in expectations ? Have increasingly higher minting standards (and increased use of mirror-like fields) encouraged collectors to become more fussy ?
Until someone can pinpoint when milk spotting first manifested on silver coins then an answer wont be forthcoming.
Perhaps the real issue is why do milk spots appear so quickly in modern times when, historically, it took years ?
 
 

Biggest lesson for me - never panic buy a coin.
The secondary market is full of coins, both proof and bullion, that are for sale at considerable discounts on the release or mid-frenzy price... Don't believe the hype !
 
 
 

Biggest lesson for me - never panic buy a coin.
The secondary market is full of coins, both proof and bullion, that are for sale at considerable discounts on the release or mid-frenzy price... Don't believe the hype !
 
 
 

It is unlikely that fine silver would be worse affected than lower finenesses such as 925 or 500.
It is probably that many modern silver bullion, collector, and proof coins are made using 999 silver, which buyers expect to be perfect, so they get scrutinised more than older circulation coins.
Much of this evidence is anecdotal, but I believe that a large enough sample of anecdotal evidence can become statistically significant.
My experience, and a growing consensus, is that the problem seems to be caused by some contaminants from modern production processes, which presumably were not as prevalent in previous production processes.
 
I agree.

We have a customer who asked the Royal Mint about milk spotting.
Although I do not know his exact question, this was the reply he received:
Dear xxxxx,
 
Thank you for your email.
 
Please see response below, this has been approved by the relevant department regarding your enquiry below:

White spots or milk spots are occasionally found on the surface of silver bullion products and do not affect their value, as the silver content will remain unaffected.

The spots can develop over a period ranging from weeks to years and can be the result of a number of factors including microscopic chemical surface contamination during the manufacturing processes or incorrect handling & storage of the products where oils or moisture from hands/fingers reacts with the surface of the Silver. Safe handling and storage can greatly reduce the likelihood of white spots occurring. During our manufacturing process we take all precautions and adhere to rigorous quality standards to ensure that we reduce the possibility of introducing milk spots.

Any attempt to clean or remove the white spots is not advisable as this can introduce further contamination and scratches on the surface of the products.

As milk spots do not damage or erode the silver content, the intrinsic value of the silver is not effected (sic), you will, however, have to speak to the dealer for details of their refund policy as we are unable to advise on their policies.

If you have any enquiries, please do not hesitate to contact us,
 
Kind Regards,
 
It seems to me that someone at the Royal Mint does not know that it also occurs on silver proof coins.
It is misleading of the the RM to state that milk spots do not affect the value of the coins.
I do not think milk spotting occurs as a result of post-production handling, although it might be difficult to prove this either way.
While the intrinsic value of the silver is not affected, I suspect there will not be many TSF members who would be happy about milk spots, and most would say that it detracts from the aesthetic value, and market value.
I suspect our customer was asking about a Royal Mint coin, which he probably bought from them.
All in all, I think this is a rather unsatisfactory answer, but not totally unexpected.

https://www.moderncoinmart.com/2018-p-australia-1-oz-silver-dragon-1-coin-ngc-ms70-er.html
 
 

Interesting.
I wonder if other mints are bothering to research the cause of this - i suspect that as long as there are customers willing to buy the coins then there is no incentive for them to do so...
As a long-time collector of RM silver proofs  i am always surprised at the number of people who complain about milk spots. I suspect some of them are new to buying silver coins and have unrealistic expectations. Every single silver coin minted will end up with toning or bloom. Not nice when it happens on a new coin but it will happen anyway, either next week or in a decade. As far as i am concerned the more collectors who sell silver coins at reduced prices because of spotting (and toning) the happier i am... Right now milk spots are a fact of life and expecting FDC coins every time is a recipe for disappointment.
Historically all oxidisation and 'bloom' was descibed as toning and i too had not heard it described as 'milk spotting' until recently. I suspect our transatlantic friends of 'coining' this phrase.
 

Interesting.
I wonder if other mints are bothering to research the cause of this - i suspect that as long as there are customers willing to buy the coins then there is no incentive for them to do so...
As a long-time collector of RM silver proofs  i am always surprised at the number of people who complain about milk spots. I suspect some of them are new to buying silver coins and have unrealistic expectations. Every single silver coin minted will end up with toning or bloom. Not nice when it happens on a new coin but it will happen anyway, either next week or in a decade. As far as i am concerned the more collectors who sell silver coins at reduced prices because of spotting (and toning) the happier i am... Right now milk spots are a fact of life and expecting FDC coins every time is a recipe for disappointment.
Historically all oxidisation and 'bloom' was descibed as toning and i too had not heard it described as 'milk spotting' until recently. I suspect our transatlantic friends of 'coining' this phrase.
 

Interesting.
I wonder if other mints are bothering to research the cause of this - i suspect that as long as there are customers willing to buy the coins then there is no incentive for them to do so...
As a long-time collector of RM silver proofs  i am always surprised at the number of people who complain about milk spots. I suspect some of them are new to buying silver coins and have unrealistic expectations. Every single silver coin minted will end up with toning or bloom. Not nice when it happens on a new coin but it will happen anyway, either next week or in a decade. As far as i am concerned the more collectors who sell silver coins at reduced prices because of spotting (and toning) the happier i am... Right now milk spots are a fact of life and expecting FDC coins every time is a recipe for disappointment.
Historically all oxidisation and 'bloom' was descibed as toning and i too had not heard it described as 'milk spotting' until recently. I suspect our transatlantic friends of 'coining' this phrase.
 

I had never heard the term "milk spot" until the last year or two.
I think I first became aware of it on TSF, where there seem be be lots of discussions and complaints about milk spots, mainly about British Royal Mint silver coins including some high premium proof coins, and also bullion coins like Britannias.

This composite images shows milk spotting on a 2021 UK silver proof Queens's Beasts Black Bull of Clarence coin, one of 9 coins from a 10 coin Royal Mint set to feature this production defect.
Of course, I have seen white spots on silver coins before, but had never called them milk spots, or heard anyone else call them that, until quite recently as I just mentioned.
I can call to mind seeing a slight grey blue bloom on some silver proof crowns from 1980 and 1981. In the past, we have tried silver dipping a few coins, but with very poor results. I suspect that this bloom is caused by the same or a similar production problem.
A quick search using Google will find many pages discussing the problem, but none which states its cause, although a few of the sites including YouTube videos seem to claim to explain the phenomenon and its cause, but fail to actually do so.
A number of these sites mention that it might be caused by solvents or detergents used to clean the planchets (blanks). Some suggest PVC. Although PVC can and does cause some tarnishing, corrosion, or discoloration, I have never noticed it causing milk spots, so I think we can discount the PVC theory. My own thoughts were that it might be caused by oils or other lubricants, affecting either the blanks or the actual coins during the striking process.
The Royal Canadian Mint is to be commended because, according to its website, it carried out research over about 4 years, and in 2018 introduced something called MintShield, which reduces , slows down, or helps to prevent milk spotting. It proudly states that it now incorporates MintShield into its silver bullion maples, and other silver coins. However...
... Disappointingly, the RCM fails to state clearly what causes the problem, what MintShield is or how exactly it works, stating it is a secret process. While I can understand it protecting its investment in research to develop the process, I feel I should deduct points for choosing to withhold the basic facts, namely what is milk spotting, and what causes it.
As recently as yesterday, I asked our main Perth Mint contact what Perth Mint knew, as I cannot remember seeing it on their silver coins, although I feel sure somebody will have done.
I received the following very prompt reply:
Such spots are caused regularly by some small pollutions at the production process. TPM has made large efforts by cleaning the factory to prevent such spots.
I will check if there is any further “official” statement available about that theme from TPM.
Obviously, this does not explain everything we all want to know, but at least it is more than I have heard from any other mint, apart from the RCM as mentioned above. If I receive any further information, I will post it here.
 
 
 

Well, another twist in the tale - Have just recieved the sixpence in the post. It looks as though the RM didn't cancel the order as i was originally told...
The invoice has the original price (£315) on it.
Now i don't know what to do - send it back and wait to see if these get put on sale at some point in the future (as they've done historically with the unsold silver issues) or keep it because it can be perceived as a 'bargain' compared with the new price of £475......

Have just checked my 'closed orders' on RM - when i ordered this originally (and RM cancelled the order) it was £315. Since then the price of gold has dropped yet it's now for sale at £475.... £210 worth of gold in a design that has been directly copied from the silver issue. Seems like a wee bit of a mark-up.
I think i'll wait 'til they put these in the 50% off sales
 

I bought a tube and paid £200 (with postage) for the privilege - works out at £10 a coin or 100% premium....
Why ? Because i like them and get pleasure out of owning them. Long term i will either make money on them or end up turning them in to jewellery.
(The 2006 1/10oz bullion Britannias coins sell for £12-£15 each presently)

It's quite common for RM bullion and doesn't interfere with the design. A lot of the 2oz queens beasts have the same problem - snaggy protruding reeding. Most people don't notice because they keep them in capsules.... Unless the 'coin' is significantly thinner on one edge i'd just think of it as a little bit of extra silver !

It's quite common for RM bullion and doesn't interfere with the design. A lot of the 2oz queens beasts have the same problem - snaggy protruding reeding. Most people don't notice because they keep them in capsules.... Unless the 'coin' is significantly thinner on one edge i'd just think of it as a little bit of extra silver !

2.88 ozt of hand poured 999fs
Went to it's new home today

It was first advertised on the RM website in May for £315. Then they removed it from the site and sent an email stating it was listed in error. It has been re-advertised this week at £475... i ordered one in May but the transaction was cancelled by RM and was showing up in my account as a closed order.
To be honest i believe the original price is more realistic - it still works out at approx £100 premium on the gold cost. The new price seems to be a bit heavy for a design already in use for silver versions. Just checked my account and they have charged £315 as per the original listing 😁

It was first advertised on the RM website in May for £315. Then they removed it from the site and sent an email stating it was listed in error. It has been re-advertised this week at £475... i ordered one in May but the transaction was cancelled by RM and was showing up in my account as a closed order.
To be honest i believe the original price is more realistic - it still works out at approx £100 premium on the gold cost. The new price seems to be a bit heavy for a design already in use for silver versions. Just checked my account and they have charged £315 as per the original listing 😁