Memorial and Coronation sovs PF70

[refero]

i know memorial sovereign-s have been discussed widely already, but i d like to deepen a particular aspect; having the 2 different sovereigns (memorial and the forthcoming coronation) a similar mintage (lets say 20.000) i wonder how PF70 can perform in the future

as of today NGC claims more than 400 memorial in PF70. I guess PCGS numbers would be similar. Lets say 1000 pieces in total get PF70 (5% of total, but this is un underestimation as more and more will be sent to slab in the future). A lot always available in the market (next CC premium auction has five pieces in PF70). too many to make this a rarity, too many to see a serious increase in their value.

I understand these will be a must for every collector (i myself own a memorial sov, and i ll get a coronation) but i dont really see a real bargain here on commercial side. RM just minted too many.

Edited May 26, 2023 by refero

[SiCole]

10 minutes ago, refero said:

i know memorial sovereign-s have been discussed widely already, but i d like to deepen a particular aspect; having the 2 different sovereigns (memorial and the forthcoming coronation) a similar mintage (lets say 20.000) i wonder how PF70 can perform in the future

as of today NGC claims more than 400 memorial in PF70. I guess PCGS numbers would be similar. Lets say 1000 pieces in total get PF70 (5% of total, but this is un underestimation as more and more will be sent to slab in the future). A lot always available in the market (next CC premium auction has five pieces in PF70). too many to make this a rarity, too many to see a serious increase in their value.

I understand these will be a must for every collector (i myself own a memorial sov, and i ll get a coronation) but i dont really see a real bargain here on commercial side. RM just minted too many.

Theres a few more than 400 at the moment bud:

[AppleZippoandMetronome]

I've written about this in other threads mostly on the topic of grading more broadly but yes...  you have to imagine with many more examples of "the perfect coin" the values will certainly have an impact long term. Does that make it a bad buy long term? It's debateable but I think they're worth buying. I bought into the memorial sovs and will buy into the coronation sovs. With the mintage of the coronation sovs I'll wait a few months because I believe they'll be available for under issue price but long term I think they'll be a safe bet.

I do think its worth warning about the potential of them not performing well long term. I think too many of us get caught up in situations where we expect lightning to stike twice, or three times or four times, etc, etc. The expectation that a special issue sov will well outperform a regular issue one is something that will become less and less a thing the more the mint puts out those special issues. This will be the third one in a row. At what point do they stop being special and start just being a regularly changing thing? Throwing grading into the mix you certainly can't expect the values of these coins to match special issues where mintages were lower and coin preservation isn't what it is today because there will be so many more "perfect" examples in the market. I and others think these coins are a fairly safe bet but I'll be the first to admit with everything taken into account its just a guess and we could all easily be wrong.

[SilverJacks]

Was it really necessary for RM to release a memorial sovereign? A memorial coin is understandable but did it have to be the sovereign? And the increased mintage numbers, along with the other new releases just floods the market with "special" design sovereigns. The increased RRP makes it harder to hold their premium and generally doesn't sit well with many customers as the feeling of it being a money spinner takes the gloss off the actual product.

Credit where it's due, for all the criticism of their quality control, over 95% of the census achieving a 70 shows a high production standard, but makes them not really any more valuable on the secondary market. So you now have customers covering the grading costs and not really seeing any great return for their efforts, if they choose to sell quickly.

Mid to long term, who knows what the future holds. All of the one-off designs have a lot going for them. But what will the market look like in future? RM will surely have to tone it down with all these new sovereign designs, but there's no guarantee of that happening. What if there is a new monarch again soon? Are we going to see this repeat itself? It's too much already imo.

[Oldun]

I think there are bigger concerns. What if sovereigns lose their CGT free status…..? The gov is already reducing the CGT annual allowance amongst other tools they have to claw back the half a trillion quid they spunked on covid measures, let alone the national debt now subject to ever increasing interest rates to pay it down.

 

That is one hell of an overdrawn credit card…..30 years in the making……hope everyone had fun.

Edited May 30, 2023 by Oldun

[SiCole]

5 minutes ago, Oldun said:

I think there are bigger concerns. What if sovereigns lose their CGT free status…..? The gov is already reducing the CGT annual allowance amongst other tools they have to claw back the half a trillion quid they spunked on covid measures, let alone the national debt now subject to ever increasing interest rates to pay it down.

 

That is one hell of an overdrawn credit card…..30 years in the making……hope everyone had fun.

I think theres more chance they will make gold vatable for guaranteed income at point of sale from the trader rather than waiting in x amount of years for Joe Bloggs to sell on and then correctly account in their end of year return which most PAYE employees wouldn't even know how to do.

[Oldun]

Indeed. It is the gov. They can make it up as they go along, including retro action.

 

 

Edited May 30, 2023 by Oldun

[westminstrel]

What if the RM changes the Sovereign design every year like the Britannia?

Why would they care how it impacts the longer term value if they can still shift 15,000+ coins in a matter of days and get about a 200% ROI?

[westminstrel]

I know a lot of people who want variety. Trends over timelessness might not be elegant but can still bring in the money!

[SeverinDigsSovereigns]

1 hour ago, westminstrel said:

What if the RM changes the Sovereign design every year like the Britannia?

Why would they care how it impacts the longer term value if they can still shift 15,000+ coins in a matter of days and get about a 200% ROI?

What are your opinion on the Australian kangaroos, swans, etc? I understand their designs change every year but I am quite ignorant when it comes to Aussie bullion markets...

[SidS]

2 hours ago, westminstrel said:

What if the RM changes the Sovereign design every year like the Britannia?

Why would they care how it impacts the longer term value if they can still shift 15,000+ coins in a matter of days and get about a 200% ROI?

Like the old £1 coin - it became a yawnfest.

[westminstrel]

8 hours ago, SeverinDigsSovereigns said:

What are your opinion on the Australian kangaroos, swans, etc? I understand their designs change every year but I am quite ignorant when it comes to Aussie bullion markets...

Well the Sovereign is in a totally different league from any of these modern coin ranges.

The Sovereign is a tiny 7.98gm coin but it continues a centuries old tradition, it is pretty much unrivalled by any other coin today, and St. George and the Dragon is its quintessential representation. 

The modern coin ranges, both by the Royal Mint and every other Mint, are just a way to sell precious metals in new and interesting ways. Sometimes they are nice, sometimes they start to become classics of our age, and sometimes they are gimmicky.

But none of them have the pedigree that the Sovereign does.

The Sovereign doesn’t need to be made relevant. It’s appeal is in its timelessness.

Imo! 🙂

[GoodAsGold]

On 27/05/2023 at 12:09, SilverJacks said:

Credit where it's due, for all the criticism of their quality control, over 95% of the census achieving a 70 shows a high production standard, but makes them not really any more valuable on the secondary market. 

That would be over 95% achieving a 70 out of those sovereigns considered worthy of grading. Others (particularly in box sets) have been returned straight back to the RM as being unsatisfactory. 

[GoldDiggerDave]

17 hours ago, Oldun said:

I think there are bigger concerns. What if sovereigns lose their CGT free status…..? The gov is already reducing the CGT annual allowance amongst other tools they have to claw back the half a trillion quid they spunked on covid measures, let alone the national debt now subject to ever increasing interest rates to pay it down.

 

That is one hell of an overdrawn credit card…..30 years in the making……hope everyone had fun.

I’m an amazed by several things with UK currency gold being CGT, VAT and Inheritance tax free.  One this has not been changed or just closed off to the plebs aka the 99%…….But also amazed more people don’t use UK currency gold as a vehicle for tax free savings, and especially inheritance tax, is there anything stopping you liquidating all your assets and then gifting it to your children in the form of UK gold currency? It’s certainly within the current rules.  
 

When they made these rules (think it was in the 1960’s) they did not imagine the plebs holding gold bullion and it was purely a vehicle for the rich. 

[GoodAsGold]

In general it’’s easy to criticise the RM. I like the occasional moan about them (quite rightly about the lack of any QC in particular). However, we complain about some mintages in general because they’re just too high, hence this topic of debate whether the long term value makes them a good investment or not. Yet other mintages are just too low and we complain that they sell out in a flash and we just can’t get hold of them. It can’t be easy to strike a balance and please everybody, collectors and flippers or both alike.

The skill in spotting a winning coin release is based on more than factors beyond something that’s just a special release perhaps? 

[CazLikesCoins]

I don't understand what's going on with the RM and QC. I've bought the odd bullion sovereign from the 60s in better condition than some of those SOTD proofs. A ding here a ding there everywhere a ding ding ee I ee I oh! Really put me off trying to get a nice coin to put away. Even the cases suck now. Faux blue leatherette. Kind of thing I used to get rings in off the market as a kid. The price goes up and the quality goes down and we're left in the middle expected to 'emperor's new clothes' the c-pap RM are churning out these days. At this rate I'm expecting their bullion silver to come pre-   blackened and to be charged extra for it.

[CazLikesCoins]

15 minutes ago, GoodAsGold said:

In general it’’s easy to criticise the RM. I like the occasional moan about them (quite rightly about the lack of any QC in particular). However, we complain about some mintages in general because they’re just too high, hence this topic of debate whether the long term value makes them a good investment or not. Yet other mintages are just too low and we complain that they sell out in a flash and we just can’t get hold of them. It can’t be easy to strike a balance and please everybody, collectors and flippers or both alike.

The skill in spotting a winning coin release is based on more than factors beyond something that’s just a special release perhaps? 

Saw an almost perfect KC proof recently on here spoilt by one noticeable flaw on the obverse. Put's me off so bad. It's like buying an oil paining with a scratch on it. I think these kind of things need to not be distracting by their flaws to a point they smother its beauty.

[HonestMoneyGoldSilver]

1 hour ago, GoldDiggerDave said:

I’m an amazed by several things with UK currency gold being CGT, VAT and Inheritance tax free.  One this has not been changed or just closed off to the plebs aka the 99%…….But also amazed more people don’t use UK currency gold as a vehicle for tax free savings, and especially inheritance tax, is there anything stopping you liquidating all your assets and then gifting it to your children in the form of UK gold currency? It’s certainly within the current rules.  
 

When they made these rules (think it was in the 1960’s) they did not imagine the plebs holding gold bullion and it was purely a vehicle for the rich. 

This is incorrect. Gold is not exempt from inheritance tax. The inheritance tax system is better played by gifting your house to your children/spouse as this raises the tax-free estate threshold from £325K to £500K. If you liquidate to gold and gift them £500K you have to pay 40% tax on £175K. If you gift them a house worth £500K, the tax is 0%

Is Gold Exempt From Inheritance Tax? | Atkinsons Bullion

"The short answer to this is no, gold is not fully exempt from inheritance tax"

There are ways to reduce the tax burden. You can become King, for example. There are other more complex vehicles but this is not the place for me to start discussing specifics

[SilverJacks]

1 hour ago, GoodAsGold said:

That would be over 95% achieving a 70 out of those sovereigns considered worthy of grading. Others (particularly in box sets) have been returned straight back to the RM as being unsatisfactory. 

Sure, but that's pretty much same as always. 

39 minutes ago, GoodAsGold said:

In general it’’s easy to criticise the RM. I like the occasional moan about them (quite rightly about the lack of any QC in particular). However, we complain about some mintages in general because they’re just too high, hence this topic of debate whether the long term value makes them a good investment or not. Yet other mintages are just too low and we complain that they sell out in a flash and we just can’t get hold of them. It can’t be easy to strike a balance and please everybody, collectors and flippers or both alike.

The skill in spotting a winning coin release is based on more than factors beyond something that’s just a special release perhaps? 

I agree they have a tough job in striking a balance, but it seems recently they have leaned very far towards their own profits....

[CazLikesCoins]

23 minutes ago, HonestMoneyGoldSilver said:

This is incorrect. Gold is not exempt from inheritance tax. The inheritance tax system is better played by gifting your house to your children/spouse as this raises the tax-free estate threshold from £325K to £500K. If you liquidate to gold and gift them £500K you have to pay 40% tax on £175K. If you gift them a house worth £500K, the tax is 0%

Is Gold Exempt From Inheritance Tax? | Atkinsons Bullion

"The short answer to this is no, gold is not fully exempt from inheritance tax"

There are ways to reduce the tax burden. You can become King, for example. There are other more complex vehicles but this is not the place for me to start discussing specifics

Unless you remain alive for seven years after you make the gift. So just pass it on to the kids and DON"T DIE!!! lol. At least for seven years. After that I don't suppose the kids will give a windy fart one way or the other now they've got dad's gold. Hellooo Ibiza...

Edited May 31, 2023 by CazLikesCoins
stuff

[refero]

On 26/05/2023 at 22:59, SiCole said:

Theres a few more than 400 at the moment bud:

i wrote 400 NGC and around 1000 in total.. 

[CaptCaveMan]

1 hour ago, CazLikesCoins said:

Unless you remain alive for seven years after you make the gift. So just pass it on to the kids and DON"T DIE!!! lol. At least for seven years. After that I don't suppose the kids will give a windy fart one way or the other now they've got dad's gold. Hellooo Ibiza...

For me, Sovereigns (bullion) are perfect for annual exemption.

Edited May 31, 2023 by CaptCaveMan

[SidS]

12 hours ago, CazLikesCoins said:

I don't understand what's going on with the RM and QC. I've bought the odd bullion sovereign from the 60s in better condition than some of those SOTD proofs. A ding here a ding there everywhere a ding ding ee I ee I oh! Really put me off trying to get a nice coin to put away. Even the cases suck now. Faux blue leatherette. Kind of thing I used to get rings in off the market as a kid. The price goes up and the quality goes down and we're left in the middle expected to 'emperor's new clothes' the c-pap RM are churning out these days. At this rate I'm expecting their bullion silver to come pre-   blackened and to be charged extra for it.

They'll be artificially darkening the half sovereigns next so that they don't get confused with pennies.

[refero]

Last Coin Cabinet auction a NGC PF70 memorial (with box and CoA), sold for 525 gbp (plus i guess the 6% on hammer price) so i say around 555 gbp. 

[Divmad]

On 01/09/2023 at 19:31, refero said:

Last Coin Cabinet auction a NGC PF70 memorial (with box and CoA), sold for 525 gbp (plus i guess the 6% on hammer price) so i say around 555 gbp. 

Only 6% on the hammer price? Really?