Do i cut my losses?

[Murph]

I ordered a 2021 bullion sovereign at the same time as I stuck an order in for the silver proof griffin.  Not that I am in the habit of buying many modern proofs but since I had picked up most of the rest of the series for less than release price i thought I would buy the griffin as well.

I was told you'd be getting your allocation so there should be no problem but since I have seen other dealers starting to get and sell out of stock I'm a little worried I will miss out,  especially if you have more preorders than allocations or receive fewer coins than expected.

I'd imagine the bullion sovereign isn't a problem as I'm almost sure I saw them in stock earlier.

I also managed to pick up last years sovereign for slightly less with delivery from Sharps P at the start of the week although the Royal Mail special delivery took 4 days from posting in London.

[LawrenceChard]

4 hours ago, silenceissilver said:

They do state the time is indefinite but I would consider this null and void and contra bonos mores because effectively it means they could never deliver and still not breach the contract.

It should state a maximum time frame. If it said it could take up to a year, it would be very explicit and you knew what you are up to rather than relying on their reputation.

I'm pretty sure "indefinite" would not stand at court

I had no issues with my orders from Chards and would never agree to a deal with an indefinite time frame to fulfil it for the counterpart but it certainly doesn't help  with maintaining the good reputation to even offer such deals.

You have a valid point that a court might consider "indefinite" to be null and void, or excessively lengthy.

We would also prefer to "state a maximum time frame", but when supply demand balances change, it is almost impossible for us, or anyone else, to  try and predict any time frame, so we err on the cautious side.

We could say "it could take up to a year", but that would be too pessimistic, and any stated time plants a seed in the mind, whereas "indefinite" does not.

Because it appears on our website, it is rather impersonal, and difficult to explain without writing many pages. We remain happy to discuss and explain things by telephone or e-mail, and this will often include suggestions for things we have in stock or for quicker delivery.

[LawrenceChard]

29 minutes ago, Liam84 said:

I'll go if there's an extra seat. I'd go on a skiing holiday with you too, but to be honest it looks a little risqué

And I'd rather be skiing!

[Paul]

22 minutes ago, sovereignsteve said:

I would have to disagree Paul. IMO it can be a useful way to do business for both parties.

The dealer makes a sale which contributes to turnover and most of the time will result in a profit. They will know how many of these forward sale coins they need to buy in the future thereby taking away some uncertainty of buying and keeping too much stock.

The buyer clearly knows what they are getting themselves into. The terms and warnings are there for all to see. It is inconceivable buyers would not understand this and if they do, they shouldn't be buying precious metals IMHO.
😉This facility allows the buyer to make a purchase, fixing the price. This can be useful if they want to be invested because they think the price is going to rise or they simply have the money now and want to invest before they spend it on something else

A few years ago I decided to buy some bullion shield sovs from them on this basis. I think they had one or two in stock but I wanted substantially more. The price was right and I knew what I was letting myself in for. I think I had to wait around three months for the order to be fulfilled. No issues.

Glad it work for you Steve  

[sovereignsteve]

4 minutes ago, Paul said:

Glad it work for you Steve  

Another aspect that just struck me is the likelihood of coins being available after a substantial fall in spot price.
It is common for more stock to be available after a recent rise as sellers cash in profits and vice versa. It would be reasonable to assume there will be lots buyers who wish to take advantage of a recent fall but find dealers do not have the stock.
Chards very kindly allow you to take advantage of this situation, putting themselves at risk in doing so😉
Unless they hedge of course.

[Paul]

2 minutes ago, sovereignsteve said:

Another aspect that just struck me is the likelihood of coins being available after a substantial fall in spot price.
It is common for more stock to be available after a recent rise as sellers cash in profits and vice versa. It would be reasonable to assume there will be lots buyers who wish to take advantage of a recent fall but find dealers do not have the stock.
Chards very kindly allow you to take advantage of this situation, putting themselves at risk in doing so😉
Unless they hedge of course.

I can see it works for some stackers Steve , just my own opinion its not the way i would choose to buy myself

If its not in stock, i don't want to wait.  I will either choose something else, buy elsewhere or keep the cash

 

[silenceissilver]

30 minutes ago, LawrenceChard said:

You have a valid point that a court might consider "indefinite" to be null and void, or excessively lengthy.

We would also prefer to "state a maximum time frame", but when supply demand balances change, it is almost impossible for us, or anyone else, to  try and predict any time frame, so we err on the cautious side.

We could say "it could take up to a year", but that would be too pessimistic, and any stated time plants a seed in the mind, whereas "indefinite" does not.

Because it appears on our website, it is rather impersonal, and difficult to explain without writing many pages. We remain happy to discuss and explain things by telephone or e-mail, and this will often include suggestions for things we have in stock or for quicker delivery.

I can see why you don't want to state a maximum time frame as it would necessarily be considerably above the average and might well put potential buyers off. I can also see the advantages of this selling model as described by @sovereignsteve As a matter of fact I didn't know you offer it and still thought it might possibly be a handy way  to get coins without having to check price movements and availability all the time and without the risk of having to pay more at a higher spot price, if you expect gold to go up. Yet, personally I'm not the most patient person which is one reason why I would never agree to such deal, plus of course because theoretically you could never deliver without breaching the contract, so if you do such a deal with the wrong counter part, you are screwed which is another reason why I would never agree to such a deal, unless possibly with someone I personally knew well enough.

I still think there should be maximum time frame and in case it was exceeded the money should be refunded. It gives the buyer the peace of mind that you are committed to the deal and avoids conflicts like this one and it would stand at court, most likely unlike "indefinite". Maybe you could state "one year" (or whatever you think is suitable) rather than indefinite but also stress out, that's the maximum, whereas the AVERAGE time you'd wait for would be fraction (let's say 3 months - whatever it is) in order to avoid to put potential customers off. 

I don't know how far this model goes but I would assume it's handy for collectors who don't want to search it together over time but rather buy a whole collection at once, from one dealer.

I really think stating "indefinite" means asking for conflicts like this one as what is perceived as a reasonable time frame before the deal would have to be considered void, is very subjective. Personally, after one month I wouldn't be too worried because I'd think Chards has a good reputation but I can understand how a customer who came from a different subjective expectation could start thinking you were taking the piss.

 

[Nugget]

I've looked at Chards website and when those messages have popped up I've just cancelled the order and gone elsewhere.

It's a choice at the end of the day.

I won't give any company my money in advance without some indication of goods arriving.  No chance, you want the money now, then I want my goods.  You want to strike a sale with me now and deliver the goods at a time of your choice in the future, that's also fine...but you wait to take the money at that point also.  Simple in my mind. 

I will never buy anything, from anyone regardless of the item / value in this manner.  I would rather pay a few £ more and get a newer / in stock item.

I've followed this post with interest as I've just come back on the scene and it's definitely made me feel better about cancelling the orders I was going to place that popped up with those messages.

No doubt at all I will purchase something from Chards moving forward, but only in stock items.  May cost a little more but I'm fine with that.

 

[KevjustKev]

The trouble I have with this situation is that the money has all ready been paid. This is the same problem I have with the same dealer. I ordered a coin, the money came out of my account, the coin has been sold. Chards, in this case have my money and a coin (which they haven't got). At no point when I ordered was a mention of out of stock, waiting for stock or not available at the moment. If it was able to be ordered, I see no problem in having a set price at the time of said order. When that order can be fulfilled then and only then should the money come out of a customers account. If the customer goes overdrawn, that's a bit tough.

Had I known that I would have to wait because the coin I wanted was not in stock I may well have ordered something else. I will now think long and hard about ordering from Chard again

[Robda1986]

It's cost me about £60 all told through difference between buying and selling a very cheap lesson i won't be making the same mistake twice 

[CollectForFun]

This is a typical situation of different views of buyer and seller on the same matter. Both of them being right, from their respective perspectives.

Seller thinks the terms of sale were transparent, all risks highlighted and buyer's consent was received, which indeed seems to be the case. So how is it possible that buyer's expectations were different?

As I see it, the main issue the buyer has is that they can see that the seller has the respective goods (i.e. sovereigns) on stock. But instead of fulfilling his order, they are offered under higher-premium categories. So the buyer inevitably comes to conclusion that the seller may not play fair if they prefer earning more premium to honoring his order. And this is understandable - who determines that the coins they have in stock won't be used to cover that order? The seller. So the buyer feels they are at seller's mercy.

I wonder @LawrenceChard, what if the situation develops that you are really unable to source the right sovereigns in let's say 3 or 6 months - at which point you decide to rather dispatch higher premium sovereigns, than further delay fulfilling such order? Or are you really prepared to play the indefinite game?

I can understand the reasoning behind offering such "orderable" type of service, but perhaps this should not be offered for such common coins like sovs, or the seller should commit to an end date at which they either supply one of the better coins, or offer full refund. By the way, why not full refund in this scenario? Because spot went down? If the spot goes up, would you refund more?

[Chorlton]

Having ordered from Chards early last year on a similar basis I understood the basis of the order and options if I no longer wanted to wait for physical delivery. In the end they offered me an alternative which I took as it suited my needs. Whenever agreeing to deal of this nature it is very important to understand what you are signing up for as this type of deal is not for everyone.

[Coolsmp]

How many people actually read or understand the lengthy terms and conditions when buying or signing up to things.

I know I don't always but probably should. For example, every so often the Silver Forum updates its terms and conditions which you then have to accept in order to continue to use this site. Open question to everyone "did you read them?" 

Perhaps it is more pertinent to read these things when parting with your hard earned cash. 

A lesson learned for some!

[KevjustKev]

10 minutes ago, Coolsmp said:

How many people actually read or understand the lengthy terms and conditions when buying or signing up to things.

I know I don't always but probably should. For example, every so often the Silver Forum updates its terms and conditions which you then have to accept in order to continue to use this site. Open question to everyone "did you read them?" 

Perhaps it is more pertinent to read these things when parting with your hard earned cash. 

A lesson learned for some!

Yep, all well and good, yet after reading how many understand them?🤔

[Shep]

Is this point really being argued? Ignorance of the terms and conditions is no defence whatsoever.

The terms of the sale could not have been much clearer. Don’t like it, don’t buy it. 
 

[Robda1986]

Dealers buy sovereigns in at a set price regardless of year/design/condition as long as they weigh correct and are genuine its up to them to decide what they want to do with them and what premium they want to charge. (yes there are exceptions) say a 1917 ect. If I'd read the print then no I wouldn't have gone through with the purchase. Pleading ignorance isn't an excuse but in this case it's cost me 

[StackemHigh]

1 hour ago, Coolsmp said:

How many people actually read or understand the lengthy terms and conditions when buying or signing up to things.

I know I don't always but probably should. For example, every so often the Silver Forum updates its terms and conditions which you then have to accept in order to continue to use this site. Open question to everyone "did you read them?" 

Perhaps it is more pertinent to read these things when parting with your hard earned cash. 

A lesson learned for some!

How many people buy the premium membership with hard earned cash then agree to the t's & c's. 

[StackemHigh]

1 hour ago, Robda1986 said:

Dealers buy sovereigns in at a set price regardless of year/design/condition as long as they weigh correct and are genuine its up to them to decide what they want to do with them and what premium they want to charge. (yes there are exceptions) say a 1917 ect. If I'd read the print then no I wouldn't have gone through with the purchase. Pleading ignorance isn't an excuse but in this case it's cost me 

I am no expert on sovereigns. 

Not all sovereigns are equal at all 1817, 1937, 1989, 2005, 2012, 2017, shields and sotd all carry heavy premiums.

Not reading the t's and c's and the impatients of the buyer to get a better deal may just have damaged the reputation of a dealer known to us on the forum and for some purchases through their premises! 

 

[Smiler999]

I don't see how one customers inability to read and understand terms, which are quite clear and accepted a couple times before striking a deal is going to impact people buying from said dealer?

If he has stock in that I want at a price I think is agreeable to me, I'll buy off him.

Online lynching of a man's business over a couple sovereign coins, which I might add will be fulfilled im sure isn't fair either

[Roy]

5 hours ago, Robda1986 said:

It's cost me about £60 all told through difference between buying and selling a very cheap lesson i won't be making the same mistake twice 

Warren Buffett's rules of investing:

No.1: Never lose money.

No.2: Never forget Rule No.1.

Your impatience cost you £60 (1g of gold). Good start! Your gold was bought, it wasn't in your hand but it was bought. You owned it.

Chards is a reliable bricks and mortar business, you can drop in, they aren't going away or are simply hiding behind a web address.

You need to earn, gain and have trust when dealing in precious metals and you've gone about it the wrong way.

Will members want to sell to you now with that attitude? 

Another example of 'instant gratification'!  Does your user name give up that you're a millennial? 

 

[LawrenceChard]

11 hours ago, silenceissilver said:

I can see why you don't want to state a maximum time frame as it would necessarily be considerably above the average and might well put potential buyers off. I can also see the advantages of this selling model as described by @sovereignsteve As a matter of fact I didn't know you offer it and still thought it might possibly be a handy way  to get coins without having to check price movements and availability all the time and without the risk of having to pay more at a higher spot price, if you expect gold to go up. Yet, personally I'm not the most patient person which is one reason why I would never agree to such deal, plus of course because theoretically you could never deliver without breaching the contract, so if you do such a deal with the wrong counter part, you are screwed which is another reason why I would never agree to such a deal, unless possibly with someone I personally knew well enough.

I still think there should be maximum time frame and in case it was exceeded the money should be refunded. It gives the buyer the peace of mind that you are committed to the deal and avoids conflicts like this one and it would stand at court, most likely unlike "indefinite". Maybe you could state "one year" (or whatever you think is suitable) rather than indefinite but also stress out, that's the maximum, whereas the AVERAGE time you'd wait for would be fraction (let's say 3 months - whatever it is) in order to avoid to put potential customers off. 

I don't know how far this model goes but I would assume it's handy for collectors who don't want to search it together over time but rather buy a whole collection at once, from one dealer.

I really think stating "indefinite" means asking for conflicts like this one as what is perceived as a reasonable time frame before the deal would have to be considered void, is very subjective. Personally, after one month I wouldn't be too worried because I'd think Chards has a good reputation but I can understand how a customer who came from a different subjective expectation could start thinking you were taking the piss.

 

Definitely!

(Or should that be indefinitely).

What you say is all very sensible, and I agree with it in the main.

Choosing our wording is taken seriously, and I have a reputation for being pedantic.

There is a lot more I could say about the market, but TLDR would probably kick in after the first hour's reading.

When the gold sovereign supply demand balance changes, it can be localised to the UK, or it can be international.

When high demand is localised, it's not a problem, and quite good for our business, as we have good relationships with a handful of major dealers on a few continents. In "normal" times, shipping to us is also quite easy, and takes from a few days to a few weeks. In Covid times, that goes from a few weeks to a few months, unless we want to pay seriously big money for a custom bullion delivery. We can't go and collect, because of Covid travel difficulties, and don't want to risk catching it.

If high demand is international, most surplus stocks in Europe get hoovered up within days by big North American brokers, meaning that our main supply ends up being UK domestic secondary market, which means low volume.

Trying to forecast what an "average" delay might be turns into a foolish guessing game, so we don't attempt it. Well, actually we do, but it really is just a guessing game, unfit for sharing, and it would be inviting trouble and criticism to do so.

What we sometimes do, in private conversation with customers, is to look at what the delay was on our most recent outward shipment, but it is no guarantee for the next one, or for the next order placed.

Way back in the 1960's, when we used to sell 1000 sovereigns for £3500, we did not usually have 1000 in stock, but we could pick up the phone to a couple  of London merchant banks, and buy them in a few seconds. We usually paid same day, and sometimes got the coins the next day, often before our customer's cheque had cleared (remember cheques?). We could even accept cash in those days, were not required to take customer ID. It was all wonderfully simple, easy, and fun! Some of this was mail order (bullion by post!), but much was over the counter in our very unimpressive, quite seedy looking premises, number 10 Dale Street, Blackpool. We were also flexible enough to accept a deposit of perhaps 10%, with the balance in cash once we had received the coins and checked them. Those London merchant banks either no longer deal in sovereigns, or don't exist any more. In their place, we make a market ourselves. Because we do not have multi billion pound backing, this limits our ability to carry unlimited stock. There is also a list as long as your arm of other bullion coins we do keep in stock, which was not the case in the 1960's.

I was going to write more, but I'll cut this short.

Indefinite is the best word we can think of for now, and has the benefit of being brief. Impatient customers would depart before tne end of explanations, and patient ones would probably fall asleep.

At least now there are some alternatives, such as the the most recently released sovereigns (they do cost slightly more), gold Britannias, Krugerrands, and a host of other gold coins, and bars.

During Covid, even new sovereigns and other UK gold coins are not always instantly available of the shelf. We no longer buy direct from the Royal Mint, so any new RM coins we sell have usually travelled much further than the average Brit (British person, not Britannia). It is not very environmentally friendly, but hey, what can we do?

Where I disagree with you is "I really think stating "indefinite" means asking for conflicts like this one" On the contrary, it should avoid it, except a small number of people seem to think "indefinite" means "with two weeks"

We try to make it idiot-proof, but there is always someone who manages to beat our best efforts.

🙂

[LawrenceChard]

13 hours ago, sovereignsteve said:

Another aspect that just struck me is the likelihood of coins being available after a substantial fall in spot price.
It is common for more stock to be available after a recent rise as sellers cash in profits and vice versa. It would be reasonable to assume there will be lots buyers who wish to take advantage of a recent fall but find dealers do not have the stock.
Chards very kindly allow you to take advantage of this situation, putting themselves at risk in doing so😉
Unless they hedge of course.

Surprisingly, sometimes when the gold price goes down, buyers stop buying, and some people start selling, It can be quite unpredictable.

This always makes me wonder about cause and effect. It is possible that the grassroots sentiment changed, and caused the price drops, but we think what we have observed is the other way round.

Another old anecdote: again back in the 1960's, a guy bought two different types of coin from us . A week or so later, market prices had gone down slightly on one type, but up slightly on the other. I expected him to buy more of the now cheaper one, but he didn't. Against my advice, he sold us the coins which had gone down, making a small loss, and bought more of the ones which had gone up. It taught me a lesson, but I still do not understand it.

Yes, we do put ourselves at some risk, but not too much. Most of the time, our total stock stays fairly level, and if we are 500 sovereigns "short", we will almost certainly be 100 to 150 ounces of gold "long" elsewhere. If prices change by 10%, our loss or gain might be about 1%. 

While we do hedge metals on account, this is often only for a short time frame, hours, or day. Usually our "hedge" is in to other physical.

A few months ago, we used some of our spare money to buy platinum, about 260 ounces. We paid under £700 per ounce, and are very happy to see it is now over £900, and still looks cheap. I thought we had published a blog at the time about platinum looking underpriced, but when I looked at it yesterday, much of my enthusiasm had got watered down, losing most of the point!

[LawrenceChard]

1 hour ago, Smiler999 said:

I don't see how one customers inability to read and understand terms, which are quite clear and accepted a couple times before striking a deal is going to impact people buying from said dealer?

If he has stock in that I want at a price I think is agreeable to me, I'll buy off him.

Online lynching of a man's business over a couple sovereign coins, which I might add will be fulfilled im sure isn't fair either

I feel sure that Robda1986 will give us a 1 star review, which happens sometimes, and there is nothing much we can do about it.

If ha also repeats his false statements, we will respond, and may contest the comments with the review site. This can take a lot of effort, and require us to provide legal quality evidence to convince them, even though they accept the reviewers (sometimes self-contradictory) comments at full face value.

Although it is also time-consuming, at least here on an open forum we can state our case. On review sites, the response space is often limited.

I have not yet seen and response by Robda1986 to any of my recent comments in this thread.

I do hope he has not lynched himself, at least not literally, because some of the evidence I have shown has exposed Robda1986 as dishonest.

In ancient Rome, he may well have fallen on his own sword, quite literally. In the internet age, he can simply change his username, or set up a new one, and continue anonymously.

I, and we, always use our own identifiable names, where it is permitted. This means that if I accuse someone of dishonesty, I open  myself to legal action for defamation, unless I am careful to ensure that what I say is accurate, and in the public interest. This provides assurance that I never make any such claims frivolously.

While I understand that on TSF, there are valid security reasons why most members should avoid revealing their real names or addesses, the anonymity does provide cover for cowards to snipe from.

Thank you for your words of support, they do all mean something for me, and our whole team at @ChardsCoinandBullionDealer.

[LawrenceChard]

4 hours ago, Robda1986 said:

Dealers buy sovereigns in at a set price regardless of year/design/condition as long as they weigh correct and are genuine its up to them to decide what they want to do with them and what premium they want to charge. (yes there are exceptions) say a 1917 ect. If I'd read the print then no I wouldn't have gone through with the purchase. Pleading ignorance isn't an excuse but in this case it's cost me 

I am  slightly sorry to contradict you again, but "Dealers DO NOT buy sovereigns in at a set price regardless..."

You are wrong yet again. I do not think this is enhancing your reputation on this forum.

You did not need to read any small print, or our (regrettably) lengthy Terms and Conditions. As I have evidenced in my first long post in this thread,  when you selected "Add to Basket", a large, screen-blocking popup page appeared which clearly stated:

"Important Notice
This item is not available for immediate despatch - click here to take me to a product with a shorter delivery time."

"...we are unable to provide an estimated delivery date for this product..."

"(Option 1)
Check this box to acknowledge that there is an indefinite wait until my order is fulfilled. "

"(Option 2)
Check this box to be offered a dated product with a shorter lead time. Alternatively, I wish to remove this item from my basket."

It is not possible to proceed with your purchase unless or until you selected the first option.

We thought this was idiot-proof, I apologise if we failed.

Before you can complete your purchase, there are two further clear notifications about delay.

Although I have previously posted a link to it, I have repeated the first popup here:

I would also like to contradict  and correct you on this point " in this case it's cost me..."

It has not "cost you". The delay is not causing you any loss. Fluctuating gold prices may cause, or have caused, you a notional loss or profit. If you do impatiently decide to sell, then you may also make a loss, but is not certaian, and has not happened yet as you wrongly imply.

Sure, although you have not made a financial loss, you have lost the time you have wasted for yourself and others on this forum, and possibly elsewhere. You have probably also lost any respect you may have gained on the forum. You may even lose some of your life expectancy, depending on what effect this has had on your blood pressure.

I, and @ChardsCoinandBullionDealer would appreciate it if you stopped publishing misinformation on TSF or elsewhere.

[LawrenceChard]

3 hours ago, StackemHigh said:

I am no expert on sovereigns. 

Not all sovereigns are equal at all 1817, 1937, 1989, 2005, 2012, 2017, shields and sotd all carry heavy premiums.

Not reading the t's and c's and the impatients of the buyer to get a better deal may just have damaged the reputation of a dealer known to us on the forum and for some purchases through their premises! 

 

Thanks @StackemHigh.

He did not need to read all our "t's and c's", which are regrettably quite lengthy. He mainly failed to read the big, screen-blocking popup notice, which started

"Important Notice
This item is not available for immediate despatch - click here to take me to a product with a shorter delivery time.",

then went on to say

"...we are unable to provide an estimated delivery date for this product."

"(Option 1)
Check this box to acknowledge that there is an indefinite wait until my order is fulfilled. 

(Option 2)
Check this box to be offered a dated product with a shorter lead time. Alternatively, I wish to remove this item from my basket.
 

It was impossible for him to proceed unless he elected to choose the first option.

There were also two further warnings before he could complete the transaction.

We have tried, but apparently failed, to make this process idiot-proof. We apologise for our failure, and promise to try harder in future.

Imagine if we sold guns.

Congratulations on purchasing your brand new Glock 19, which is enclosed.

Important Safety Notice.

Be careful if you load this gun with live ammunition.

If you do load it, be especially careful not to point it at your own head.

If you do try this, please ensure that the safety catch is engaged, do not pull trigger...

🙂