Do i cut my losses?

[silenceissilver]

16 minutes ago, Darr3nG said:

We have been in business for over 50 years as an extremely reputable bullion dealer and we are confident we will be able to fulfil any orders we accept, albeit with longer delivery times than usual. Please note any investment products are non-refundable."

 

17 minutes ago, Darr3nG said:

Check this box to acknowledge that there is an indefinite wait until my order is fulfilled.

They do state the time is indefinite but I would consider this null and void and contra bonos mores because effectively it means they could never deliver and still not breach the contract.

It should state a maximum time frame. If it said it could take up to a year, it would be very explicit and you knew what you are up to rather than relying on their reputation.

I'm pretty sure "indefinite" would not stand at court

I had no issues with my orders from Chards and would never agree to a deal with an indefinite time frame to fulfil it for the counterpart but it certainly doesn't help  with maintaining the good reputation to even offer such deals.

[mouldybread]

distance selling law applies to this and supersedes any t&c 

product must be supplied in a timely manor I think it is 30 days so 5 day week is 6 weeks then you are due a full refund

most distance selling law doesn't apply  to gold but this one does

[LawrenceChard]

9 hours ago, Robda1986 said:

Ordered some sovs from a dealer a month ago still not in stock had an email saying they would buy them back without me taking delivery. Do I stick it out and wait possibly indefinitely or do I sell back to them taking the hit as I'd be selling for a loss? (and just count it paying for a lesson.) take the money they give me back and just go bbp who have sovs in stock and will deliver next day. Kind of irritated by the dealer yes I bought the cheapest sovs they had but surely a sov is a sov before it has any premium value and they buy sovs at a generic price then add premium. Won't be dealing with them again regardless 

I think it is always sensible to name any party you are referring to.

This makes your story clearer for your fellow members who might be reading your post.

I note a few had already asked, or had to play guessing games with you.

So to clarify "a dealer", you mean @ChardsCoinandBullionDealer.

Also, if you are referring to a fellow TSF member, particularly if you are critising them, then tag them in to the conversation. Amongst other things, it is a matter of courtesy.

Next, I recommend stating all relevant facts, and not being selective, otherwise you give people a distorted view.

You have omitted to state that when you added the sovereigns to your basket, you received the following pop-up:

I don't think we could be much clearer, or more transparent.

I know the image already contains the words, but I will repeat some below:

 

Important Notice
This item is not available for immediate despatch - click here to take me to a product with a shorter delivery time.

... we are unable to provide an estimated delivery date for this product. If you wish to continue with your order the price will be fixed at the current live rate and we will keep you up to date via email.

The items you purchase remain yours with you being free to sell them back to us or switch to an in-stock product at any time. If you do switch products there will either be a balance to pay or a refund dependent upon premiums on the day.

... we are confident we will be able to fulfil any orders we accept, albeit with longer delivery times than usual. Please note any investment products are non-refundable.

Any questions please call +44 1253 343081 and we can discuss this with you.

Option 1
Check this box to acknowledge that there is an indefinite wait until my order is fulfilled. 

Option 2
Check this box to be offered a dated product with a shorter lead time. Alternatively, I wish to remove this item from my basket.
 

We would much prefer to sell things we have in stock, it is easier and cleaner, however we prefer to give people a choice, and many or most people appreciate this.

The page invites you to phone us if you have any questions, although if the question is "when will delivery be", you would be told that we don't know, which is why we state "indefinite wait". Our customer service team would be happy to advise you what alternative items we have in stock, although none of them would know all ten million pounds worth. I don't know that!

It is impossible to proceed with the purchase unless you click option #1 "Check this box to acknowledge that there is an indefinite wait until my order is fulfilled."

 

If you do select option #1, you get take to a "Shopping Basket" page:

If you click the first option, you get taken to this page:
<a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/lawrence_chard/50936920487/in/dateposted/">Basket - WE CANNOT COMMIT TO A FIXED DELIVERY TIME. PLEASE CONTACT US IF YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS.</a>.
 

... which contains a further delay warning.

If that were not enough, if you choose to continue to payment, you get this screen:

<a href="https://www.flickr.com/photos/lawrence_chard/50936924402/in/dateposted/">Payment Proceed to Delivery - WE CANNOT COMMIT TO A FIXED DELIVERY TIME. PLEASE CONTACT US IF YOU HAVE ANY QUESTIONS</a>.

 

Nobody held a gun to your head to buy the coins.

We did not talk you into it, on the contrary, we tried to talk you out of it if you had any concerns about when delivery would be.

A brief aside here: I recall your Avatar name, and I seem to recall having a TSF conversation with you, about a month ago, but I cannot find the conversation. Perhaps I am conflating two different conversations, but one was about delivery delays on secondary market our choice gold sovereigns.

You go on to say "had an email saying they would buy them back without me taking delivery", but made it sound as though this came out of the blue, whereas I believe it was in response to an e-mail from you asking when you would get delivery.

I will skip over your next, rather rhetorical and loaded question, and skip to:

"and just go bbp who have sovs in stock and will deliver next day."

It is possible and quite likely that BullionByPost were not open for business on the day you ordered from us, they have closed down a few times during the Covid crisis, and they almost certainly would have been more expensive than us.

"Kind of irritated by the dealer"

Do you ever think that the other party might also get irritated?

"yes I bought the cheapest sovs they had but surely a sov is a sov before it has any premium value and they buy sovs at a generic price then add premium."

I tried to work out what that meant, but failed. Sorry.

"Won't be dealing with them again regardless"

We always honour and fulfil our contracts. Sadly, there are many people who fail to do this.

Agreeing to a deal involving an indefinite delay, then getting impatient, and the complaining about the delay is unfair. Trying to renege on a purchase when the price has gone down is unfair, but all too common. Requesting a charge-back for non-delivery (which you mention in later posts) is also unfair when you were aware from the start that no specific delivery time was agreed. Indeed requesting a charge-back under these conditions probably involves making a dishonest statement, or at least deliberately concealing relevant information.

80/20 Principle

It is well known that for most businesses, that about 80% of the income comes from about 20% or the customers, and vice versa, although the proportion vary widely.

Similarly 20% of the customers create 80% of the work, and vice versa. Actually for us, it's probably closer to 98% and 2%, but the principle remains the same.

In an ideal world, we would pick and choose our customers, and way back when most of our business was done over our counter, we did this.

Now that most business gets done online, it is more difficult for us to activate this policy, although we do try to make everything on our websites as clear, open, and transparent as possible.

We try to ensure that all our customers are happy. The inevitable, but logical corollary, is that we would prefer that potentially unhappy customers would go elsewhere, and be someone else's customers rather than ours.

🙂

 

 

 

 

 

[LawrenceChard]

11 hours ago, Mike1976 said:

Am I missing something?

Why do you not just cancel the order and request a refund as he is unable to supply the item you bought. 
 

Am I missing something?

Yes,  Robda1986 omitted a number of relevant points, as detailed in my long response.

He was aware of:

"This item is not available for immediate despatch", 

"there is an indefinite wait",

and more.

[LawrenceChard]

11 hours ago, Paul said:

name and shame them i bloody hate this practice selling stuff you don't have in stock

We, @ChardsCoinandBullionDealer, would much rather sell stuff we have in stock, but...

People often want something we do not have in stock, and we prefer to allow them a choice.

We only do this with their complete knowledge and agreement.

[Paul]

  

No comment

[LawrenceChard]

10 hours ago, Robda1986 said:

310 per sov so I'd be taking a hair cut of 20 per coin plus guarantee I wouldn't get delivery reimbursed 

Our "buy-back" price would be no less than our standard buying-in price at the time.

I think you meant to say "plus NO guarantee I would get delivery reimbursed"

It goes without saying that we would refund any delivery charges. To do anything else would be unreasonable and unfair.

 

[LawrenceChard]

10 hours ago, Fivepoundfred said:

Personally i don't like buying anything unless it will be shipped once paid for. Obviously with bullion type products you may always be open to problems owing to a moving spot price.

Also when a product is out of stock it should be removed from a website, if you don't have it for sale it should not be on public view. I know this is some kind of marketing ploy but i get fed up of page after page of displayed products that are not in stock ( and probably never will be again ) 

Personally i don't like buying anything unless it will be shipped once paid for. Obviously with bullion type products you may always be open to problems owing to a moving spot price.

That's a perfectly reasonable view, and we are always happy to help a customer find stuff we do have in stock. We also have a few pages which specifically list only items we have in stock.

Many people want to buy things we do not have in stock, and we prefer to offer a choice.

[LawrenceChard]

10 hours ago, Robda1986 said:

I think they were ordered when they were orderable. Since putting my order in thay have been constantly re listing generic bullion grade sovereigns adding premium to them because they are spending the time on individual coins sorting out years monarchs ect due to low turn over and knowing that by specifying the coins they can ask a premium. Why sell a sov for 328 when they can get 350/360+ (100 coins is the difference of 3k) like I said won't be using them again. I'd rather pay £3 more per coin and go else where 

"I think they were ordered when they were orderable."

You know perfectly well that they were not in stock at the tiem, but were "orderable".

Your wording "I think" is disingenuous at the least.

Sure, we do have many other premium dates and grades of gold sovereigns in stock.

We might also have had some cheaper "grade C" in stock.

[LawrenceChard]

9 hours ago, Robda1986 said:

I'm in no rush to sell just aggravates me premium/profit is at the cost of customers as most have guessed its chards I'm going to be stubborn given I've paid for delivery I expect delivery I'm thinking I'll start emailing them every day as I find it honestly rude. The coins were paid for before all this hype with pm's. If you can't supply a product at a price simple don't sell it

Waiting for delivery is not being stubborn.

I agree with you that e-mailing us every day would be rude.

I do not know what "The coins were paid for before all this hype with pm's." means.

If you can't wait for a product which is "not available for immediate despatch", "there is an indefinite wait", then simply don't buy it.

🙂

[LawrenceChard]

8 hours ago, Robda1986 said:

Hi I understand you not being able to give a rough time frame for delivery due to the fluctuations in supply. As you have stated you could get 500 in 1 day and nothing the next I'm just concerned given the order is only 3 sovereigns and you haven't been able to sauce them in a month. An offer of £310 per sov isn't possible unfortunately. As I'd be looking at a minimum of £20 extra to replace them. I'll give it 7 days before I look at proceeding with a charge back from my bank. For items not dispatched for delivery 

The quantity you bought is not relevant to the order in which we complete and ship purchases. 

In cases similar to this, we aim to fulfil orders in strict rotation, not according to size.

I hope you can understand that this is the only fair treatment.

We are not seeking to buy-back your sovereigns, but it always remains an option, as does exchanging for in-stock products with a scrupulously fair premium adjustment.

[LawrenceChard]

8 hours ago, Robda1986 said:

From what I can see I'm dammed either way their not going to send me them given their charging more for them in premium. I'm not falling for a bait and switch scam by paying them more in a premium and their offer is melt value and I doubt they will refund the p&p

Please do not accuse us of using a "bait and switch scam".

Bait and switch is deplorable, unethical, dishonest, and in some jurisdictions, illegal.

It is quite common in the USA. To our knowlege the only UK dealer that tries it is Harrington and Byrne. I am sure there are some TSF members who will confirm this, but we were given a recording of them trying it. 

Try buying one of their well-known loss leader product by telephone, and see for yourself what happens.

I also find it objectionable that you cast doubt on that fact that we would refund an unused "p&p" charge, without any reason to cast that aspersion.

[LawrenceChard]

8 hours ago, Robda1986 said:

Unknown if the buyback offer is fixed as their now not replying to my last email pointing out how small the order was and that my local pawn/ jewellery shop can get me them in and bbp have them in stock. glad I kept it small I was umming and awwing about ordering 10 given the price at the time but it being the first time dealing with them. Think I dodged a sizable bullet 

Our buying prices are always good at the time and date, and subject to changes in market conditions.

How many e-mails have you sent us?

You may be interested to know that we see, and buy, gold sovereigns which are ex-pawn or ex-jewellery. Sometimes these are still good enough condition for us to class as "bullion grade", but very often they are damaged, scratched, excessively worn, polished, or gilded. If we do buy such coins, we then decide whether they are good enough to offer out as "grade C", and if not, we scrap them, as we also do with underweight coins.

We also see an almost alarming number of counterfeit coins which have been bought from pawn shops, jewellers, auctions, ebay, and other sources, including coin and bulllion dealers.

All coins we supply are unconditionally guaranteed to be genuine.

[LawrenceChard]

7 hours ago, Spence098 said:

I personally spoke to someone at chards to ask about sovs and how long the delivery time would be and the lady told me " we can not give you a delivery date it could potentially take up to a year it just depends on when we can source the product " I struggle to see how it can take a fairly big dealer that long to source sovereigns but what do I know !!!

I'm glad to hear we gave you a pessimistic indication, even if it is overly pessimistic.

It's safer to overstate any delay, for a number of reasons. It's a bit like asking when it will be safe to book a holiday to Wuhan.

With new products, we often do have an expected inward shipping date, but are aware these can slip. In such cases, we try to give out what information we have, but adding a little extra for caution.

Where we are dealing with seondary market stuff, we could try and guess, but we never absolutely know. In that case, it is better to say "a year" and deliver in 6 months, rather than say "one month", and then to take two months to deliver. This probably loses us some sales, but at least we are being honest and open about the situation.

[LawrenceChard]

6 hours ago, Robda1986 said:

Fundamentally my issue is simple. 

I bought sovereigns at a low premium. Paid in full Inc delivery cost. Expecting to get delivery after a max of 2 weeks, after they get some in (its 3 sovereigns I can go to my local pawn/jewelers and pick up 10 if I felt so inclined to pay the premium he's asking so their not hard to come buy) 

Since ordering the premium on physical has shot up whilst spot has stayed the same or fallen so instead of sending my order when coins come in they have been listing them with the inflated premiums on their website trying to maximise their profits. 

Why were you "Expecting to get delivery after a max of 2 weeks"?

We certainly never gave you any reason to expect or believe that. On the contrary, we believe we made it crystal clear to any reasonable person that it could or would be  much longer than that.

"so instead of sending my order when coins come in they have been listing them with the inflated premiums on their website trying to maximise their profits. "

This is untrue, and you have no grounds or reason to believe it or say it.

 

[LawrenceChard]

5 hours ago, Robda1986 said:

I just think they should honour their prior orders before trying to milk the hell out of the premiums. I get the whole no delivery time frame but I just find it insulting their flat out lying about the reasons for not sending items I've paid upfront for 

We do honour our prior orders.

Our secondary market our choice bullion sovereigns get allocated to purchases in the order in which they were received.

We do not "milk the hell out of the premiums", and you have no reasonable grounds or reasons for believing or claiming that.

" I get the whole no delivery time frame". It appears that you do not "get" it.

"their (sic) flat out lying about the reasons for not sending items I've paid upfront for"

We are not lying, and you have no reasonable grounds for believing that or claiming it.

I resent you calling us us liars.

If you read through my earlier, longer post, you might notice that it is you who has been "economical with the truth".

 

[LawrenceChard]

4 hours ago, Robda1986 said:

The issue I'm having is I don't trust them to actually send my coins. I get seriously annoyed being flat out lied to especially when it's so blatant. Being out of stock is one thing but their not 

"The issue I'm having is I don't trust them to actually send my coins."

We have given you no reason to mistrust us. We provided clear information and warnings about delivery and possible delay.

"I get seriously annoyed being flat out lied to especially when it's so blatant. Being out of stock is one thing but their (sic) not"

You are seriously annoying yourself, whichever way you choose to interpret that.

We are not lying to you. There does seem to be a serious problem with your understanding and interpretation.

Falsely accusing us of dishonesty is not likely to help get your coins delivered to you any quicker, nor is it likely to elicit extra sympathy or assistance from ou customer service team, however we are sufficiently professional to ignore this, and not be tempted into delaying your shipment any longer than necessary.

[LawrenceChard]

5 hours ago, Coolsmp said:

they usually favour one party over the other that being the dealer and its usually the customer who pays the ultimate price and loses out. Chards (Lawrence) have been an active member on the silver forum promoting their business and many would have bought from them due that and their reputation. It would be good to hear from them in relation to this issue and how it is going to be resolved.

Thanks, but be careful what you wish for, my posts can get quite lengthy!

🙂

[Arganto]

53 minutes ago, LawrenceChard said:

It's a bit like asking when it will be safe to book a holiday to Wuhan.

 

 

I'll go if there's an extra seat. I'd go on a skiing holiday with you too, but to be honest it looks a little risqué

[Robda1986]

2 weeks for a reputable company to deliver on a purchase to me seems fair (I've ordered silver from Australia and had it in less than a week) so 2 weeks seems fair given we're talking 3 sovereigns were now at a month as I've said this was my first time doing business with you. As I put my first post up I got several messages on here asking straight away if it was your business I had an issue with. I wasn't going to name and shame your business but given people's instant reaction It was very clear they knew who I was talking about . I've had 1 email updating me in regards to my order that was after 5 business days (from robyn who may I add has been helpful) yes I understand there are checks that need to be made and as I've clearly stated in previous sections above I'm not after a refund for refund sake, I'm after the coins i purchased I'm not after proof/mint as long as it weighs 7.98g the condition is basically irrelevant cleaned, dented, scratched, ect to me is a given hence why I bought them. Didn't know about the charge back thing until I Googled it as I've not once had an issue and as I stated above "At the time of purchase I deem the goods to be mine :price goes up great! price goes down or stays the same I loose money. Delivery is just another step in the process"

So what would you personally call a fair window for delivery 4-6 weeks, 4-6 months, 4-6 years? Indefinite doesn't have a time frame. Going off the distance selling act given you seem to like small print states ideally a max of 30 days before a full refund should be offered. 

 

 

[Robda1986]

Current spot value is 42.396x7.322 x 3 = 931.27 + 6 delivery makes £937.27 I expect a full refund Monday morning. I'll take the hair cut as lesson learnt 

[Robda1986]

Order number 46111 R. M. Staples 

[sovereignsteve]

3 hours ago, Paul said:

Still a darn stupid way to operate a business IMO - its "selling stuff you don't have" plain and simple, when you do away with the flowery language 

It is almost guaranteeing an unpleasant client experience, most likely will generate follow up emails/calls and lead to threads on the internet like this appearing, that will stay etched in history forever highlighting this somewhat shady practice to many other potential/new clients

I would have to disagree Paul. IMO it can be a useful way to do business for both parties.

The dealer makes a sale which contributes to turnover and most of the time will result in a profit. They will know how many of these forward sale coins they need to buy in the future thereby taking away some uncertainty of buying and keeping too much stock.

The buyer clearly knows what they are getting themselves into. The terms and warnings are there for all to see. It is inconceivable buyers would not understand this and if they do, they shouldn't be buying precious metals IMHO.
😉This facility allows the buyer to make a purchase, fixing the price. This can be useful if they want to be invested because they think the price is going to rise or they simply have the money now and want to invest before they spend it on something else

A few years ago I decided to buy some bullion shield sovs from them on this basis. I think they had one or two in stock but I wanted substantially more. The price was right and I knew what I was letting myself in for. I think I had to wait around three months for the order to be fulfilled. No issues.

[LawrenceChard]

4 hours ago, Paul said:

Still a darn stupid way to operate a business IMO - its "selling stuff you don't have" plain and simple, when you do away with the flowery language 

It is almost guaranteeing an unpleasant client experience, most likely will generate follow up emails/calls and lead to threads on the internet like this appearing, that will stay etched in history forever highlighting this somewhat shady practice to many other potential/new clients

Sometimes I find myself wondering if we are being stupid making it possible for people to buy products in situations where we cannot give a reasonable idea of delivery time, but...

We have always tried to offer a choice. We try to be completely clear, open, transparent, and honest about the situation. In the past, when we have been able to do this face to face, it has always worked well. The internet has changed this, and we are continually refining our web pages, messages, to try and avoid potentially impatient people from buying if there may be a delay. This is not always possible or easy. Even when we try to make things idiot-proof, there is always someone who will get through any barrier.

When we do get someone unreasonable, it does waste a tremendous amount of time and effort. There is then a danger that the vast majority of reasonable customers suffer poor service because we are distracted dealing with an unjustified complaint.

Unfortunately, this now appears to be the way of the world, and it seems to be getting worse rather than better.

When I say "this", I mean people with a grudge using and misusing social media and forums to air their grievances, and almost without exception, being economical with the truth.

[Robda1986]

Nearly as bad as people selling stuff they don't own or possess