The future of silver, VAT and import charges into the UK now a Deal has been done!?

[silversky]

2 hours ago, bluemoon said:

Yes I think it's more likely that gold will have VAT slapped on it that silver getting VAT removed. If I was an alien who just landed in Britain without knowing any of it's history, I'd see the country as very socialist and moving towards communism.

Having spent many years abroad working in the middle east and Asia, I returned to the UK a few years ago and was struck by just how socialist it has become.  Perhaps it was being away for so long that let me see it in a new light or perhaps it really is becoming more intrusive.  A bit of both I suspect.

The free (but always failing) NHS is a classic example of socialist utopian thinking.  But that's a topic which many are unable to view dispassionately due to the relentless conditioning.  This year it was pumped really hard.

23 minutes ago, Michal said:

Wait so even on goods worth under £270 you have to pay VAT ?

No.  Free of tax duty etc up to £390 at the airport (total value of all possessions on you including potentially your laptop if it's reasonably new looking) is free of tax.  It's an old number that hasn't changed in a long time.  A duty free limit if you like for goods brought into the UK which aren't tobacco perfume or alcohol.  Above that value the tax man unzips.

Edited December 27, 2020 by silversky

[silversky]

This page is old but may contain useful updated links.  I used it to investigate bringing metals across borders years ago on a plane.  Gold is no problem because it's zero rated and can just be declared if carrying more than 10,000 Euros worth into the UK.  (the euros value will change soon I guess)  Silver is not the same but it's arguable that you can bring £390 worth on your person as a traveller entering the UK as if it were just goods which you had bought abroad on your travels.  Essentially the duty free limits from the days of old are still in place and they are a perk of travelling.  It's an in person perk and not something you can get when shipping a parcel which will probably end up being about £29

https://preciousmetaltax.com/transporting-metals-internationally/#Customs_duty_import_taxes

Edited December 27, 2020 by silversky

[Michal]

13 minutes ago, silversky said:

Having spent many years abroad working in the middle east and Asia, I returned to the UK a few years ago and was struck by just how socialist it has become.  Perhaps it was being away for so long that let me see it in a new light or perhaps it really is becoming more intrusive.  A bit of both I suspect.

The free (but always failing) NHS is a classic example of socialist utopian thinking.  But that's a topic which many are unable to view dispassionately due to the relentless conditioning.  This year it was pumped really hard.

No.  Free of tax duty etc up to £390 at the airport (total value of all possessions on you including potentially your laptop if it's reasonably new looking) is free of tax.  It's an old number that hasn't changed in a long time.  A duty free limit if you like for goods brought into the UK which aren't tobacco perfume or alcohol.  Above that value the tax man unzips.

For post

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/notice-143-a-guide-for-international-post-users/notice-143-a-guide-for-international-post-users

VAT on goods ( read bottom)

https://www.gov.uk/duty-free-goods/arrivals-from-outside-the-eu

[silversky]

8 minutes ago, Michal said:

For post

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/notice-143-a-guide-for-international-post-users/notice-143-a-guide-for-international-post-users

VAT on goods ( read bottom)

https://www.gov.uk/duty-free-goods/arrivals-from-outside-the-eu

The argument still stands regarding it being a passenger allowance.  It is traditionally a duty free allowance and is worded very badly as a result.  It has been a grey area like this for a very long time almost certainly deliberately.

If you're arriving from an area where VAT has not been paid, you will not have your bags opened and VAT applied to everything if your total value is found to be BELOW £390.  The reason is that every traveller with a laptop or a watch or a mobile phone that was newish looking would have to carry paperwork to demonstrate it's VAT payment.  It's not possible or sensible which is why a simple limit / perk is given to tourists who buy souvenirs etc without all of that hassle.  It would take a day to clear customs if they were to abolish the allowance.

The £390 should really go up with inflation because it's been £390 for at least 6 years and possibly many more than that before I explored it last.  A few silver coins below a total value of £390 including all of your personal effects should be fine imo.  It's basically not worth the ticket cost for people to go making a business out of it and small insignificant amounts are not worth them bothering with.

[GoldStatue]

Silver Britannia’s have a face value of £2, as it’s legal tender could you bring 195 of them back with you from Belgium? (mInus your carry on luggage value)

[silversky]

9 minutes ago, GoldStatue said:

Silver Britannia’s have a face value of £2, as it’s legal tender could you bring 195 of them back with you from Belgium? (mInus your carry on luggage value)

Read the link on metals across borders i posted.  There is a discussion there or on a link in the page that discusses this cash legal tender value rather than metal value.   It would appear that if declared as a monetary cash instrument you might get away with it but personally I doubt it.  It's very hard to determine what they mean by cash and financial instruments given that other items such as gold bullion have different and vague definitions.  It all goes round in circles and I think it's deliberate to be honest.  The legal tender argument only really works for circulating legal tender is my assessment but it would be great if that was different.  I wouldn't want to take the risk but if you do and it works out please do let us hear about it.  It would definitely result in a big discussion with customs and you'd need your legal case carefully laid out to demonstrate to them.

[Michal]

8 hours ago, GoldStatue said:

Silver Britannia’s have a face value of £2, as it’s legal tender could you bring 195 of them back with you from Belgium? (mInus your carry on luggage value)

I think we had this discussion before on this forum, and as fare as I remember you are obligated to declare metal value not face value when entering UK, the same when you leave UK.

[silversky]

Just to add to my passenger allowance post.

Duty free for travellers is split into separate sections.  It gets broken down into the traditional perfume, tobacco and alcohol "allowances" as well as cash or monetary instruments (not bullion) and then "other goods".  There are more restrictive limits for different classes of people such as aircrew and maritime personnel or if arriving on a non commercial vessel.   

I imagine that the purpose is just a sensible compromise that allows passengers to buy a few baubles abroad without the administrative nightmare of opening everyone's bags and working out a few pence to charge on them.  It prevents passengers from engaging in business and subverting tax laws or money laundering whilst remaining pragmatic.

A box of 200 cigarettes can make you around £50 in savings if you're a smoker compared to buying them in the UK.  This is accepted at the border possibly as a perk to help the airports remain profitable (hence private entry having a lower rate) but also because there's a practical pragmatic limit for the customs guys to deal with efficiently.  Because of this there simply cannot be an intended zero limit to VAT on "personal possessions".  15 ounces of Silver souvenirs would save you almost exactly the same value as the cigarettes and so it's quite arguable that this is intentional despite the wording not being specific.

I've only travelled with metals a handful of times and I'm no expert but something you should definitely expect when travelling internationally with Silver is that you WILL be asked to open your bag on departure.  The density sets off the detectors and to save you from the quite sudden excitement and concern that they generate it's way better as a minimum to put them separately in the tray and if you get a chance to alert a staff member before it goes through the detector.  I just put mine separately in a soft bag in the tray maintaining some privacy but also being quite open about it.  They always asked to inspect them although in the arab world not much interest was paid to them after a quick look.  Different culture regarding real money.  I also carried receipts showing my rightful ownership and a print showing todays fix vs actual weight (in case of any arrival discussions).  I was never asked on arrival but I was asked once on departure to show ownership.  I was never near the UK limit and was confident that if I was stopped I could argue my case.

It's not much help for volume buyers, but for tourists, 15 ounces of silver "souvenirs" should be fine in my opinion.  

 

Edited December 27, 2020 by silversky

[Bimetallic]

On 24/12/2020 at 13:52, BackyardBullion said:

Yeah, I don't see that gaining any public opinion support and traction ☺️😉

You don't need public opinion support to pass or change laws in democracies like the UK. You just need to lobby. Most laws and reforms in such countries are driven by focused lobbying of small interests, not by broad public opinion. Brexit was an exception – the public isn't even aware of most legislation, and it would be impossible for them to be given megastates like the UK's, where government is involved in all aspects of life and laws are legion.

[Moi]

Circulating legal tender,stock up on gold and silver one pounds!😉

[GoldStandardPartyUK]

Does nationality matter when bringing in silver from EU in 2021? I'm considering obtaining Latvian citizenship & passport (which I am entitled). I could then travel to Latvia and return to the UK holding on to my own private property across the border. 

The idea of them increasing VAT or implementing a tax on gold is a bit of a shock to me. My strategy for 2020 was to buy 100% silver britannias from Europeanmint to get them before the VAT. I had intended to switch to gold in 2021. But the news in this thread doesn't look good for my plans. 

On a side note : 

It's interesting to me the political comments in this thread mirror my own thinking. I wonder if people concerned with hard money gravitate to silver, or if it's people into silver favor hard money. Either way it's nice to find a community of like minded people 😁

[pablitto83]

Hi,

I wonder, in case that it still will be worthwhile to buy frm EU Mint (Estonia) through a group order- no extra charges /fees/checks to what it used to be, is it considered to make another group order? 

And also, is anyone aware when those new regulations will be expected to be  officially released? So it will be clear? At some point it needs to be sorted. Maybe dealers known more, as they import bullion from rest of the world in bulk

[BackyardBullion]

2 minutes ago, pablitto83 said:

Hi,

I wonder, in case that it still will be worthwhile to buy frm EU Mint (Estonia) through a group order- no extra charges /fees/checks to what it used to be, is it considered to make another group order? 

And also, is anyone aware when those new regulations will be expected to be  officially released? So it will be clear? At some point it needs to be sorted. Maybe dealers known more, as they import bullion from rest of the world in bulk

Any goods entering the UK from 1st January 2021 onwards will have VAT applied to them regardless of the approval of this deal or not. 

It is very unlikely that group purchases from Europe will be saving people enough money to warrant even doing them. 

Yes, you might be able to save £1 - £2 per coin (because UK dealers are still uncompetitive compared to EU sellers) but the added costs of shipping, VAT and postage costs would negate those savings. 

Not to mention I think there will be a greatly reduced appetite for people to even want to buy silver at close to 40% over spot price for the foreseeable future. Certainly when you compare to buying Gold at 3% over spot - makes very little sense to buy silver at all. 

3 hours ago, GoldStandardPartyUK said:

Does nationality matter when bringing in silver from EU in 2021? I'm considering obtaining Latvian citizenship & passport (which I am entitled). I could then travel to Latvia and return to the UK holding on to my own private property across the border. 

The idea of them increasing VAT or implementing a tax on gold is a bit of a shock to me. My strategy for 2020 was to buy 100% silver britannias from Europeanmint to get them before the VAT. I had intended to switch to gold in 2021. But the news in this thread doesn't look good for my plans. 

On a side note : 

It's interesting to me the political comments in this thread mirror my own thinking. I wonder if people concerned with hard money gravitate to silver, or if it's people into silver favor hard money. Either way it's nice to find a community of like minded people 😁

Nationality will make no difference at all. 

[bencoad]

I have a small order from Goldsilver.be. 581 quids worth, ordered over the weekend which is now stuck in the UPS depot in Koeln Germany. All the information I can get is  "UPS is holding the cargo at a secure facility, pending instructions and agreement. " Whatever is happening,this cant be good. Will update as and when.

[BackyardBullion]

Just now, bencoad said:

I have a small order from Goldsilver.be. 581 quids worth, ordered over the weekend which is now stuck in the UPS depot in Koeln Germany. All the information I can get is  "UPS is holding the cargo at a secure facility, pending instructions and agreement. " Whatever is happening,this cant be good. Will update as and when.

Yeah, thats gonna get taxed me thinks! Sad for you!

[Martlet]

35 minutes ago, pablitto83 said:

And also, is anyone aware when those new regulations will be expected to be  officially released? So it will be clear? At some point it needs to be sorted. Maybe dealers known more, as they import bullion from rest of the world in bulk

The new regulations have been released.  Many have been under the impression VAT would be included (myself included), that there is a last minute changes in free trade agreement, but this isnt the case as this was not part of the FTA.  We leave the single market and custom union on 31st Dec, becoming an independent trading nation with all the import regulations that apply.  Rules will be the same as if importing from US or elsewhere, except the tariffs applied (zero, because of FTA).   Because of some of the new rules smaller European business may simple not want trade at all.

 

[BackyardBullion]

Just now, Martlet said:

The new regulations have been released.  Many have been under the impression VAT would be included (myself included), that there is a last minute changes in free trade agreement, but this isnt the case as this was not part of the FTA.  We leave the single market and custom union on 31st Dec, becoming an independent trading nation with all the import regulations that apply.  Rules will be the same as if importing from US or elsewhere, except the tariffs applied (zero, because of FTA).   Because of some of the new rules smaller European business may simple not want trade at all.

 

Also, businesses in the UK that are not VAT registered will be uncompetitive to European customers. 

Prior to 31st December a business that was NOT Vat registered charged no Vat on products to customers in the EU. 

From 1st January those customers will be charged VAT when the goods are imported into their country. 

It gets worse because if, like my business you were not paying VAT on the raw materials before, you will be forced to procure raw materials with VAT on them now. This means passing on the costs to the customers and price increases. 

So, following through, previously I may have charged £35/oz for my silver. Now I would look to increase this to account for the higher material cost incurred with VAT, so lets call it £40/oz. Then the EU customer is charged VAT on the import - so they are doubly taxed and hit - not to mention the handling fee of €15 that couriers charge to calculate your VAT on import.

Bottom line, it makes small businesses that were underneath the VAT threshold a minimum of 20% less competitive with their prices at a time when we should be doing everything possible to keep our British businesses and entrepreneurs competitive. 

The ignoring of VAT harmonisation has truly made this Brexit deal next to useless and it sickens me to hear politicians herald it as "free trade" when it is nothing but free trade. 

Not to mention all the added bureaucracy and admin work that businesses will have to endure. 

Sorry, that turned into more of a ranty post than intended. 

Its sh it

[ChrisF]

 

43 minutes ago, bencoad said:

I have a small order from Goldsilver.be. 581 quids worth, ordered over the weekend which is now stuck in the UPS depot in Koeln Germany. All the information I can get is  "UPS is holding the cargo at a secure facility, pending instructions and agreement. " Whatever is happening,this cant be good. Will update as and when.

I found this:

Question 7: You can’t always assume that customers will receive their goods by the expected date. What happens if goods are in transit on 1 January 2020?

Answer: Any EU-UK supplies made on or before 31 December will be treated as intra-EU supplies until 31 March 2021. Consequently, they will follow the current intra-EU supplies VAT and duty treatment. However, it is possible that some goods may be stopped at Customs until the supplier is able to demonstrate that the despatch of the goods took place before 1 January 2021.

[Martlet]

10 minutes ago, BackyardBullion said:

Bottom line, it makes small businesses that were underneath the VAT threshold a minimum of 20% less competitive with their prices at a time when we should be doing everything possible to keep our British businesses and entrepreneurs competitive. 

Well advice there is to look again at registering for VAT, taking advantages small/sole trader businesses can, for a small paperwork overhead. 

[ChrisF]

Here is a link to the wider document if anyone wants to take a look.

https://www.accountancyeurope.eu/publications/vat-customs-duty-and-brexit-prepare-now/#:~:text=Answer%3A Any EU-UK supplies,supplies VAT and duty treatment.

[BackyardBullion]

5 minutes ago, Martlet said:

Well advice there is to look again at registering for VAT, taking advantages small/sole trader businesses can, for a small paperwork overhead. 

Been there, done that. The VAT admin burden is huge and is really not worth it in my opinion unless your business turnover is considerably over the registration threshold.

[bencoad]

14 minutes ago, ChrisF said:

 

I found this:

Question 7: You can’t always assume that customers will receive their goods by the expected date. What happens if goods are in transit on 1 January 2020?

Answer: Any EU-UK supplies made on or before 31 December will be treated as intra-EU supplies until 31 March 2021. Consequently, they will follow the current intra-EU supplies VAT and duty treatment. However, it is possible that some goods may be stopped at Customs until the supplier is able to demonstrate that the despatch of the goods took place before 1 January 2021.

Thank you for that. No reply to any of my emails to UPS or Goldsilver.be so far.

[ChrisF]

Just now, bencoad said:

Thank you for that. No reply to any of my emails to UPS or Goldsilver.be so far.

Good luck, I think you should be fine by the looks of it though.  I'm awaiting an Assault Exercise bike from Rogue.eu that cost me best part of £1000.  Its not shipped yet but preparing to ship.  I just hope they will ship before the 1st or Im looking at £200 VAT charge which will be most unwelcome.  I decided to roll the dice though and if I get charged so be it.  I'll just cry on the inside. 😭

[Martlet]

3 minutes ago, ChrisF said:

Good luck, I think you should be fine by the looks of it though.  I'm awaiting an Assault Exercise bike from Rogue.eu that cost me best part of £1000.  Its not shipped yet but preparing to ship.  I just hope they will ship before the 1st or Im looking at £200 VAT charge which will be most unwelcome.  I decided to roll the dice though and if I get charged so be it.  I'll just cry on the inside. 😭

You should be able to have the price reduced by 20%, it will now be ex-VAT export good for the seller.  

[Pipers]

Slightly different point,  If you are on holiday and you re- enter the country with some legal coinage ( silver britannias)  that are £2 pound coins how many can you bring in?  £2 coins that is