Silver Monitoring Thread £ (GBP) only.

[Wilsonl01]

4 minutes ago, Thelonerangershorse said:

No idea, got in last night and there were 10 new pages so I just skipped to the last one, everyone else was posting dots, so I just joined in.

Secret morse code too bad we missed it!

[katyc]

23 minutes ago, HonestMoneyGoldSilver said:

Come on mate. Silver is up 33.5% in the last 3 months and gold is up 19% in the same period. Both are great investments, beating inflation and are success stories

Pretty much what I was saying too. Both are great. 

[ArgentSmith]

1 hour ago, HerefordBullyun said:

Platinum will be dead for a long time - you know why? because palladium is taking it over.

Because its cheaper in the car manufacturing industry.... and now its more readily available and cheaper... Think green 

Bully Paladium is being pushed out by Pt after years of what you've just described, apart from being rarer with much production concentrated in sanctioned Russia both negatives for Pd. The effects of retooling in favour of Pt are just starting to show. This is like a decade long cycle. I think Palladium is dead unless there is some sort of advancement in cold fusion or some other use. Time will tell.

[Charliemouse]

11 minutes ago, HonestMoneyGoldSilver said:

This is inaccurate IMHO

It might add a few pennies to low cost electronics but the silver price is negligible compared with the price of an iPhone (0.34g of silver) or a laptop. It would affect solar panels (20g+ for an average 2m^2 panel) and EVs (a few ounces) but silver is not the primary cost driver in those technologies. The manufacturers can shrug off silver mooning but they can't shrug off oil, labour, shipping costs or regulation/taxation

Silver is used in electronics due to its unique chemical properties, not because it is cheap or scarce

Solar panels and batteries are all about efficiency. It is simply not possible to replace silver in those technologies without compromising the entire product, especially for solar panels but also for batteries where a few % in real world efficiency gains is considered revolutionary. 

Agreed.

To add, solar panels are not just one monolithic thing.  They are constantly changing the configuration of the components.  There are two main drivers: cost and efficiency.  The cycle has typically been:

1. New panel configuration is developed which is higher efficiency than previous, but uses more silver.
2. Design and implementation is slowly refined to reduce the amount of silver, and therefore cost, while maintaining efficiency.
3. Efficiency plateaus.
4. Go to 1.

[HonestMoneyGoldSilver]

2 minutes ago, Charliemouse said:

Agreed.

 

Glowing. To celebrate I'm off to frolic in the sunshine 😁

You really should post more mate, you're kind of wasted in the NBS as only a few people can see what you post

[Charliemouse]

3 minutes ago, HonestMoneyGoldSilver said:

Glowing. To celebrate I'm off to frolic in the sunshine 😁

You really should post more mate, you're kind of wasted in the NBS as only a few people can see what you post

I certainly am wasted... most of the time.  🤣

[theman73]

17 minutes ago, Spyder said:

This must be one of reason why you were asking for new investment ideas a few month ago to probably get out of selling on here (or if forced to).

Some truth here

According to my understanding of the laws I'm doing nothing wrong, but I'm very very disgusted by the whole story and the people involved in this.

[Dalriada83]

4 minutes ago, theman73 said:

According to my understanding of the laws I'm doing nothing wrong, but I'm very very disgusted by the whole story and the people involved in this.

I commiserate with you sir - my father was subject to an overzealous tax office minion acting on a 'tip-off'. He had done nothing wrong but it took his accountant and lawyer 5 years and considerable cost to prove it. I swear the stress of the continual aggravation took years off his life. I will never forgive or forget. Do not weaken sir and do not accept any 'deals' - rub their faces in your innocence and consult with your lawyer about getting a letter of apology from them when you are vindicated. That document will be invaluable in any future dealings with the b******s. 

[silversky]

1 hour ago, HonestMoneyGoldSilver said:

This is inaccurate IMHO

It might add a few pennies to low cost electronics but the silver price is negligible compared with the price of an iPhone (0.34g of silver) or a laptop. It would affect solar panels (20g+ for an average 2m^2 panel) and EVs (a few ounces) but silver is not the primary cost driver in those technologies. The manufacturers can shrug off silver mooning but they can't shrug off oil, labour, shipping costs or regulation/taxation

Silver is used in electronics due to its unique chemical properties, not because it is cheap or scarce

Solar panels and batteries are all about efficiency. It is simply not possible to replace silver in those technologies without compromising the entire product, especially for solar panels but also for batteries where a few % in real world efficiency gains is considered revolutionary. 

This is inaccurate IMHO.

Silver mooning would put a massive dent in solar panel production and uptake if alternative metals weren't readily available.  Right now Silver is cheap, so it's great to use the best material in panels, but that will change if Silver moons.  The talk of Silver mooning stretches all the way to lurid visions of it becoming as valuable as gold, but for the sake of argument if we limit mooning at 10:1 Gold Silver ratio it's still going to use about £150 in your typical 2m panel.  I read that currently panels are around $150 for 2m, so that would more than double its price and have a huge impact on economic viability.  That cannot be absorbed.  No way.  Larger amounts of Aluminium can be substituted for heat dissipation, and copper isn't actually far off in terms of electrical conductivity for your typical non critical use.  Sure they might not be the A1 most efficient best panels on the market, but they just make them 2.2m instead.  The world is full of substitution when things get too expensive, and the uses for Silver will dry up when Silver gets too pricey.

[Gruff]

3 minutes ago, silversky said:

This is inaccurate IMHO.

Silver mooning would put a massive dent in solar panel production and uptake if alternative metals weren't readily available.  Right now Silver is cheap, so it's great to use the best material in panels, but that will change if Silver moons.  The talk of Silver mooning stretches all the way to lurid visions of it becoming as valuable as gold, but for the sake of argument if we limit mooning at 10:1 Gold Silver ratio it's still going to use about £150 in your typical 2m panel.  I read that currently panels are around $150 for 2m, so that would more than double its price and have a huge impact on economic viability.  That cannot be absorbed.  No way.  Larger amounts of Aluminium can be substituted for heat dissipation, and copper isn't actually far off in terms of electrical conductivity for your typical non critical use.  Sure they might not be the A1 most efficient best panels on the market, but they just make them 2.2m instead.  The world is full of substitution when things get too expensive, and the uses for Silver will dry up when Silver gets too pricey.

Tomahawk missiles will still use it. 
Remember when everyone said that silver price would crater when digital cameras came along. There will always be a use for it, and even if some is substituted for cheaper less conductive materials, there is always a demand as circuitry and chips are needed in everything nowadays

[Paul]

[HonestMoneyGoldSilver]

50 minutes ago, silversky said:

This is inaccurate IMHO.

Silver mooning would put a massive dent in solar panel production and uptake if alternative metals weren't readily available.  Right now Silver is cheap, so it's great to use the best material in panels, but that will change if Silver moons.  The talk of Silver mooning stretches all the way to lurid visions of it becoming as valuable as gold, but for the sake of argument if we limit mooning at 10:1 Gold Silver ratio it's still going to use about £150 in your typical 2m panel.  I read that currently panels are around $150 for 2m, so that would more than double its price and have a huge impact on economic viability.  That cannot be absorbed.  No way.  Larger amounts of Aluminium can be substituted for heat dissipation, and copper isn't actually far off in terms of electrical conductivity for your typical non critical use.  Sure they might not be the A1 most efficient best panels on the market, but they just make them 2.2m instead.  The world is full of substitution when things get too expensive, and the uses for Silver will dry up when Silver gets too pricey.

Can you give sources for your calculations? Below are some figures for the UK:

 

From above the average cost for a complete system of 2m^2 solar panels like the 1-2 bedroom option is approx £5000-8000 for 5-8 panels (10-16m^2). That's roughly £1,000 per panel including installation, ignoring any potential excess costs like the type of solar panel, installation complexities or extra equipment

The size of the panels is important. It's not accurate to state you can just increase the size of the panels using silver alternatives and not accrue cost penalties elsewhere due to the extra mass and dimensions of the panels, plus manufacturing costs. Re-modulating a factory or network of factories to produce a solar panel with different dimensions in itself could massively outstrip any potential cost savings from using cheaper materials. 

From the above, it's not unreasonable to state the effective cost of a set of 2m^2 panels is £1,000 per panel and you need a minimum of 5 to create a viable system. If we assume each panel uses 20g of silver that equates to £16 per panel, £80 for the total system, or roughly 1.6% of the total cost of installation and operation of the system

That's at the current silver price. If we quadruple the cost of silver to £100/oz, then excluding all other factors, the cost of silver would represent roughly 6.4% of the total system. Of course if silver goes to that price we must assume other metals, including base metals, alloys and composites, will also increase, as will various other factors. If we were to substitute for copper, well, copper is up roughly 34% in 2024 YTD and aluminium is up roughly 11%. We've also seen (minimum) wage increases, along with a dramatic rise in energy and shipping costs over the past few years. The biggest factor for solar is government subsidies and regulation which can be 30-50% of the installation ticket price.

I'm not trying to be argumentative but it's not correct to say that a mooning silver price will have a substantial influence on the effective holistic cost of silver-intensive electronic products, including solar and EVs. The effect on things like electrical switches, computers, phones and so forth is negligible. If it takes 0.34g of silver to make an iPhone it doesn't matter if silver costs $30 or $300/oz, the cost of the silver content is negligible to the manufacturer, theoretically rising from $0.34 to $3.40 per device (assuming $300/oz silver), out of a sale price of $1200 (iPhone 15 pro max base model, no cover or accessories) - this would make silver content equivalent to 0.28% of the sale price, it's currently 0.028% which is barely a rounding error 

Specifically with regards solar technology, the latest advancement on the scene is perovskite composite cells. These cells theoretically reduce the silver content in panels by a factor of roughly three compared to traditional silicon solar cells. This reduction in silver usage can lower the silver constituent as a percentage of the total research and development, manufacturing, installation, and operational costs of a solar system

 

[silversky]

Dude, solar panel "installation" costs are very different from the actual costs of the panels.  I've recently gone through all the dreadful harassment of the salesmen speeches when exploring a tiny solar installation to solve an EPC (energy performance certificate) issue.  Thankfully in the end I managed to avoid them, they are the new double glazing, with sales wonks plugging out crazy numbers.  Installation includes far more than just panels as you know.

[Gruff]

2 minutes ago, silversky said:

Dude, solar panel "installation" costs are very different from the actual costs of the panels.  I've recently gone through all the dreadful harassment of the salesmen speeches when exploring a tiny solar installation to solve an EPC (energy performance certificate) issue.  Thankfully in the end I managed to avoid them, they are the new double glazing, with sales wonks plugging out crazy numbers.  Installation includes far more than just panels as you know.

 

9 minutes ago, HonestMoneyGoldSilver said:

Can you give sources for your calculations? Below are some figures for the UK:

 

From above the average cost for a complete system of 2m^2 solar panels like the 1-2 bedroom option is approx £5000-8000 for 5-8 panels (10-16m^2). That's roughly £1,000 per panel including installation, ignoring any potential excess costs like the type of solar panel, installation complexities or extra equipment

The size of the panels is important. It's not accurate to state you can just increase the size of the panels using silver alternatives and not accrue cost penalties elsewhere due to the extra mass and dimensions of the panels, plus manufacturing costs. Re-modulating a factory or network of factories to produce a solar panel with different dimensions in itself could massively outstrip any potential cost savings from using cheaper materials. 

From the above, it's not unreasonable to state the effective cost of a set of 2m^2 panels is £1,000 per panel and you need a minimum of 5 to create a viable system. If we assume each panel uses 20g of silver that equates to £16 per panel, £80 for the total system, or roughly 1.6% of the total cost of installation and operation of the system

That's at the current silver price. If we quadruple the cost of silver to £100/oz, then excluding all other factors, the cost of silver would represent roughly 6.4% of the total system. Of course if silver goes to that price we must assume other metals, including base metals, alloys and composites, will also increase, as will various other factors. If we were to substitute for copper, well, copper is up roughly 34% in 2024 YTD and aluminium is up roughly 11%. We've also seen (minimum) wage increases, along with a dramatic rise in energy and shipping costs over the past few years. The biggest factor for solar is government subsidies and regulation which can be 30-50% of the installation ticket price.

I'm not trying to be argumentative but it's not correct to say that a mooning silver price will have a substantial influence on the effective holistic cost of silver-intensive electronic products, including solar and EVs. The effect on things like electrical switches, computers, phones and so forth is negligible. If it takes 0.34g of silver to make an iPhone it doesn't matter if silver costs $30 or $300/oz, the cost of the silver content is negligible to the manufacturer, theoretically rising from $0.34 to $3.40 per device (assuming $300/oz silver), out of a sale price of $1200 (iPhone 15 pro max base model, no cover or accessories) - this would make silver content equivalent to 0.28% of the sale price, it's currently 0.028% which is barely a rounding error 

Specifically with regards solar technology, the latest advancement on the scene is perovskite composite cells. These cells theoretically reduce the silver content in panels by a factor of roughly three compared to traditional silicon solar cells. This reduction in silver usage can lower the silver constituent as a percentage of the total research and development, manufacturing, installation, and operational costs of a solar system

 

My bugbear with solar is the inefficiency. less than 30% conversion. It needs to be closer to 65%, then a rush would be on by people to have them installed. We could then almost eliminate the need for wind.

[Shuaib121]

6 hours ago, Thelonerangershorse said:

Not always, for example I have a 1kg bar and would happily do a direct swap for a couple of sovs.

(Provided they're nice shiny new rose gold sovs, not those faded yellow tat)

I think you’re the only person I know who prefers the rose gold colour to the yellow colour.

[Charliemouse]

42 minutes ago, Gruff said:

My bugbear with solar is the inefficiency. less than 30% conversion. It needs to be closer to 65%, then a rush would be on by people to have them installed. We could then almost eliminate the need for wind.

I'd love to discuss this further, but this isn't really on topic, and I fear any thread more relevant would descend into chaos and conspiracy theories far to quickly to be productive.

[Charliemouse]

1 minute ago, Shuaib121 said:

I think you’re the only person I know who prefers the rose gold colour to the yellow colour.

He may have been sarcastic.

Also, I actually really don't mind the colour that much.  Unfortunately, it was accompanied by a significant lowering in die quality (for bullion sovs) which I hate - the so-called jelly mould.

[stefffana]

1 minute ago, Charliemouse said:

..... would descend into chaos and conspiracy theories far to quickly......

I'm in!

[Shuaib121]

1 minute ago, Charliemouse said:

He may have been sarcastic.

Also, I actually really don't mind the colour that much.  Unfortunately, it was accompanied by a significant lowering in die quality (for bullion sovs) which I hate - the so-called jelly mould.

I heavily dislike them to the point i avoid them entirely. I want my gold to look like, well gold.

[Thelonerangershorse]

4 minutes ago, Charliemouse said:

I'd love to discuss this further, but this isn't really on topic, and I fear any thread more relevant would descend into chaos and conspiracy theories far to quickly to be productive.

Fortunatly, we already have a thread for chaos, conspiracy theories and non productive stuff.

[stefffana]

2 minutes ago, Charliemouse said:

He may have been sarcastic.

Also, I actually really don't mind the colour that much.  Unfortunately, it was accompanied by a significant lowering in die quality (for bullion sovs) which I hate - the so-called jelly mould.

 

6 minutes ago, Shuaib121 said:

I think you’re the only person I know who prefers the rose gold colour to the yellow colour.

 

1 minute ago, Shuaib121 said:

I heavily dislike them to the point i avoid them entirely. I want my gold to look like, well gold.

You wanna theory, @Charliemouse?

Take that:

Russian gold colour. Adopted by Royal Mint as a standard of colour for the british sovereign coin.

Can someone to explain me why?😁

[bobski]

7 hours ago, Thelonerangershorse said:

Not always, for example I have a 1kg bar and would happily do a direct swap for a couple of sovs.

(Provided they're nice shiny new rose gold sovs, not those faded yellow tat)

Pretty sure most people would take advantage of that deal TBH

[Fishy321]

Currently £38.87 to buy a 1oz silver brit from the Royal Mint 

[HonestMoneyGoldSilver]

12 minutes ago, Fishy321 said:

Currently £38.87 to buy a 1oz silver brit from the Royal Mint 

I'll do you a tube for £37/each 😁

[Bars]

11 hours ago, FriedrichVonHayek said:

The only way to make any profit off Silver in the UK is to buy scrap, though it is very time consuming trawling through eBay and going to auctions.

Or you can just use Bullionvault.

For me buying Silver coins in the UK is pointless due to premiums and VAT.

There was a time when you could buy it from Europe and flip it on eBay but those days are long gone.

Not entirely true...

Can make money on collector coins and on the dips that come within the year, plenty of bargains and money to be made - buying and selling on TSF.