TeaTime

This could signal the end of 'professionally' graded coins as a means to speculate. Historically a 'perfect' coin was considered the holy grail and rarely (sometimes never) obtainable. Nowadays people have come to expect perfection for anything released by a mint. The term 'proof' has always been used as a description of the way the coin is struck - not as a guarantee of a perfect coin. A proof coin is (supposedly) the best that a mint can achieve at that time, under those conditions - nothing more.
The true value of slabbing is in identifying genuines coins - something i imagine the whole business was based upon. The use of grading companies as a tool for speculators has made the whole business, for me, appear a bit grubby.
Each to their own obviously, but it has always left me scratching my head at people who will pay huge premiums for a 70 graded coin over a 68/69 graded coin. Take them out of the slab and i would defy the majority of people to distinguish between them. Yet are paying hundreds or thousands of pounds for two digits printed on a slip of paper.....
When is a '70' not a '70' ?- could be the next day.
 

This could signal the end of 'professionally' graded coins as a means to speculate. Historically a 'perfect' coin was considered the holy grail and rarely (sometimes never) obtainable. Nowadays people have come to expect perfection for anything released by a mint. The term 'proof' has always been used as a description of the way the coin is struck - not as a guarantee of a perfect coin. A proof coin is (supposedly) the best that a mint can achieve at that time, under those conditions - nothing more.
The true value of slabbing is in identifying genuines coins - something i imagine the whole business was based upon. The use of grading companies as a tool for speculators has made the whole business, for me, appear a bit grubby.
Each to their own obviously, but it has always left me scratching my head at people who will pay huge premiums for a 70 graded coin over a 68/69 graded coin. Take them out of the slab and i would defy the majority of people to distinguish between them. Yet are paying hundreds or thousands of pounds for two digits printed on a slip of paper.....
When is a '70' not a '70' ?- could be the next day.
 

This could signal the end of 'professionally' graded coins as a means to speculate. Historically a 'perfect' coin was considered the holy grail and rarely (sometimes never) obtainable. Nowadays people have come to expect perfection for anything released by a mint. The term 'proof' has always been used as a description of the way the coin is struck - not as a guarantee of a perfect coin. A proof coin is (supposedly) the best that a mint can achieve at that time, under those conditions - nothing more.
The true value of slabbing is in identifying genuines coins - something i imagine the whole business was based upon. The use of grading companies as a tool for speculators has made the whole business, for me, appear a bit grubby.
Each to their own obviously, but it has always left me scratching my head at people who will pay huge premiums for a 70 graded coin over a 68/69 graded coin. Take them out of the slab and i would defy the majority of people to distinguish between them. Yet are paying hundreds or thousands of pounds for two digits printed on a slip of paper.....
When is a '70' not a '70' ?- could be the next day.
 

This could signal the end of 'professionally' graded coins as a means to speculate. Historically a 'perfect' coin was considered the holy grail and rarely (sometimes never) obtainable. Nowadays people have come to expect perfection for anything released by a mint. The term 'proof' has always been used as a description of the way the coin is struck - not as a guarantee of a perfect coin. A proof coin is (supposedly) the best that a mint can achieve at that time, under those conditions - nothing more.
The true value of slabbing is in identifying genuines coins - something i imagine the whole business was based upon. The use of grading companies as a tool for speculators has made the whole business, for me, appear a bit grubby.
Each to their own obviously, but it has always left me scratching my head at people who will pay huge premiums for a 70 graded coin over a 68/69 graded coin. Take them out of the slab and i would defy the majority of people to distinguish between them. Yet are paying hundreds or thousands of pounds for two digits printed on a slip of paper.....
When is a '70' not a '70' ?- could be the next day.
 

This could signal the end of 'professionally' graded coins as a means to speculate. Historically a 'perfect' coin was considered the holy grail and rarely (sometimes never) obtainable. Nowadays people have come to expect perfection for anything released by a mint. The term 'proof' has always been used as a description of the way the coin is struck - not as a guarantee of a perfect coin. A proof coin is (supposedly) the best that a mint can achieve at that time, under those conditions - nothing more.
The true value of slabbing is in identifying genuines coins - something i imagine the whole business was based upon. The use of grading companies as a tool for speculators has made the whole business, for me, appear a bit grubby.
Each to their own obviously, but it has always left me scratching my head at people who will pay huge premiums for a 70 graded coin over a 68/69 graded coin. Take them out of the slab and i would defy the majority of people to distinguish between them. Yet are paying hundreds or thousands of pounds for two digits printed on a slip of paper.....
When is a '70' not a '70' ?- could be the next day.
 

This has opened a real can of worms with NGC for me.
To take the milking alone: they've graded some very highly (it may be the minimum expected, but 69 is still a very good grade) despite the milking. But there is no qualification. It's their subjective opinion about 'eye appeal'. The worst milked ones got the worst grades, but to what extent did they disregard the milking on the better examples? Would any have been 70s otherwise? The (presently) unmilked Yale at 70 suggests very possibly, and a reasonable conclusion is that no milked coin can get a 70 - but it is just guesswork.
If they give a milked coin a 69 (and the photo can be checked on the register) it leaves the secondary market stumped if the milking gets worse. At what point would/should a 69 drop a grade or two? It's all subjective at NGC on this in he first place, so will be between buyers and sellers (and between different buyers and sellers).
This is the problem with modern proof silver, especially from certain Mints, and having it graded. NGC is not helping here by grading milked coins without clarification.
I have a milked MS69 Griffin, I'll have to check the register to see if it was milked when graded.
 

Genuinely Fake Morgan Dollars
By: Jordan Graveline
 
As the oxymoronic title would suggest, this post will be on fake Morgan dollars that have been mistaken for genuine Morgans. I will not be mentioning the hundreds of thousands (maybe millions) of poorly struck, underweight fakes from China, although a post like that could be worthwhile in the future. Instead, I will be focusing on a few examples of Morgans bearing the New Orleans mint mark that were put into circulation with other Morgan dollars and went unnoticed as fakes for decades.
How these Morgan dollars were first noticed dates back to 2005 when a string of Micro 'o' dollars came into the possession of PCGS all at once for grading. An 1896-O, 1900-O, and a 1902-O happened to be sent in all at once either by one person or perhaps several, no one knows for sure. Either way, someone at PCGS knew that these three micro 'o' rarities were all being graded around the same time and that person thought, "wouldn't it be great to examine all three side by side under the microscope?" Well that decision would open the deceived eyes of the numismatic community and change the way we look at counterfeit coins.
Here's what was seen:

What we are looking at here is the reverse of the three Morgan micro 'o' dollars next to the left wing (to us) of the eagle. The marks present on these coins, as noted in the picture, are a result of a counterfeit die being created from a genuine coin. This kind of mark may have gone unnoticed for many more years had it not been for someone down at PCGS deciding to examine all three varieties at once under a microscope. Sadly, these three varieties are not the only fake Morgans that had previously been known to be genuine.
Here is a genuine 1900-O/CC (New Orleans over Carson City mint mark) containing a die crack linking the T-E-D in the word UNITED:

And here are two known varieties (shown below) made from a counterfeit die of the above coin:

The first T-E-D linked picture is of an 1896-O and the second T-E-D linked picture is of a 1901-O. The next two pictures show a close up of the O/CC mint mark as well as the grainy look of the E-D linked together. The lacking of sharp/crisp details on the E-D indicates a secondary or "transfer" die a.k.a. a counterfeit!
All of these examples thus far went unnoticed for a couple reasons. The first reason they went unnoticed is that all these fakes were made using silver. So by weight, they were close enough to fall within the acceptable specs of the U.S. Mint. After testing the silver content itself, some of these coins ranged from 91%-93% silver. The second reason that these went unnoticed is that they were in circulated condition. This could lead some graders to think that a particular mark or nick on the coin was the result of being circulated and therefore miss a mark which resulted from a counterfeit die. Of course, if you have several coins made from the same die at once, then you can compare them together as was the case with PCGS.
Now the question of why were these all mint marked as New Orleans and why actually make a fake using approximately the same amount of silver? The answers I have are more speculative, but with some logic behind it.
To start, it is a known fact that the New Orleans Minting facility spaced their dies slightly further apart to prolong the use of their dies and prevent pre-mature wear. This slight increase in spacing meant that some details are not as sharp or even slightly flat on a freshly minted coin. So producing a fake Morgan with the New Orleans mint mark on it would almost give it a slight "pass" as a genuine for having less than stellar details on the lettering and other finer details, especially if it contained the "correct" amount of silver.
Now the answer to "why make a fake Morgan with real silver?" If you consider that these fakes may have been in circulation for many years, then you must entertain the notion that perhaps these fakes are much older than modern day counterfeits made from other metals. Believe it or not, but at one time silver was cheap. In fact, the amount of silver in a Morgan dollar was once less than half of the face value of the coin itself. Imagine buying enough silver at the cost of one coin, but being able to produce two coins with the silver. You've just doubled your money. Now create a counterfeit die using a genuine coin and make as many fake coins as you like while doubling the amount of money you are able to spend into circulation. At approximately 45 cents per coin, on a Morgan dollar you were actually making even more than double your money with each fake coin made. This notion at least helps me understand why these fakes were made from silver. Combine the previous idea of New Orleans spacing out the dies slightly more and you now have the perfect opportunity to rip off the public with fake coins so close to real, they were mistaken as genuine for a long time.
To finish this post off, there are also fakes which are still made of silver, but they had been caught by means of incorrectly timed details. By that I mean, coins that have the incorrect hub type for the year. I myself only just learned of the different hub types, but in the details are the dates to which those hub types were used and many have the wrong hub type on the reverse. I will leave you with just a few more photos to illustrate this.

So the reverse of this 1896-O is that of hub type C4, which was not used until 1900 at the Philadelphia mint and 1901 at the San Francisco and New Orleans mints. Thus, another fake coin.
Lastly, here is a list showing all the New Orleans coins which were previously thought to be genuine, but are now listed as "privately made". A fancier way of saying "we got fooled for a long time because these fakes were too genuine."
 

All photos and charts sourced from http://moonlightmint.com/VAM_privately_made/00.htm

Newbie to Stacking, Just watched a YouTube Vid from Backyard Bullion and thought I would give this Forum a crack. Crazy times here in Oz atm.

Well, I decided to buy one in order to see how good it was.
My first impression was that it was not a bad attempt.  However on closer inspection:
- as @cylinder99 said, it is high relief (especially the Queen's head),
- when compared to a 1oz gold Britannia, the fake is larger and has a sort of greenish tint when compared to the yellow of the genuine coin,
- even though it is larger, it is underweight.  The genuine Completer should be 31.21 grams but the fake was 25.92 grams in its capsule!  But I am not sure how accurate my scales are, as they are new, but it is certainly underweight.
So, superficially, it is not a bad attempt, but it should not deceive someone with even a little knowledge.

Well it had to happen at some point in the Queens Beasts series 🙈 the fakes are on Ebay now .
This is the first time I have seen any Queens Beasts fakes 
So keep a look out for more 

Are you sure it's 50x bigger than the original???? That would be the size of a dustbin lid if not bigger?????

Not sure if it's just me but i quite like the high relief on the counterfeit coin.....😁
I bought a joblot of fake Victoria sovereigns from Ali Express (for educational purposes) and was shocked at the quality of them - they would have fooled me if they hadn't been twice as thick as real ones and still underweight. Any casual buyer could easily be fooled..

Not sure if it's just me but i quite like the high relief on the counterfeit coin.....😁
I bought a joblot of fake Victoria sovereigns from Ali Express (for educational purposes) and was shocked at the quality of them - they would have fooled me if they hadn't been twice as thick as real ones and still underweight. Any casual buyer could easily be fooled..

Second release in the series is out on presale
2021 2 oz  Creatures of the North Werewolf
https://www.europeanmint.com/2021-2oz-canadian-silver-werewolf-coin/
 

I have 50+ silver proof coins (.925), not one is showing milk spots. Some have hazing to the surface which i put down to toning - but no defined 'splashes'. Similarly i have never seen the dreaded spots on a .958 Britannia.....  Would be interesting to pin down what year these spots started becoming so prevalent/noticeable..
It could also be something as simple as greater striking forces being used on certain coins (as per the thread Close up view and chemistry of the milk spots)
I do though, have a .925 RM silver medal minted in 2011 that has milk spots so it's not a new thing. Maybe it's just more common now.

I think grading in the volumes its happening makes this sort of behaviour inevitable. In every collecting market collectors generally want the best examples of what is out there. Grading sets out a very clear scale with a very clear pursuit for everyone - that 70. If its not perfect, if its not the best example, if its not that 70 then people don't want it. So you get a distortion of values...  70s selling for more than they're likely honestly worth and 69s going for under. Ungraded do better because there is still a chance they could be a 70...
I've said it once and I'll say it again...  I really don't like grading. I really wish it had been left as a tool for authentication as opposed to what it has become. I've been collecting various things for more than 20 years now and slowly as grading entered each market it seemed to do more harm than good. People inevitably default to purchasing and pursuing the grade instead of the coin/other collectable. The coin almost comes secondary to the grade in many cases as people rid themselves of examples that didn't quite reach that 70. Its a shame.

I am terrible at saving - i literally have to spend any spare money i have. I recognised that i may have unresolved issues from my childhood....
My options were to see a therapist or turn my psychological need to be skint into an asset. Spending my fiat on precious metals works for me - I end up with 'money' that has to be converted into fiat before spending.  Adding that extra step allows me to have savings like 'normal' people.
Everything else (the collecting aspect and drooling over my stash like Scrooge McDuck) is a bonus.
True story.

I'm gobsmacked. What i got from that was - an unused video game with an undamaged celophane wrapping is allegedly worth a million pounds more than an unused video game with a damaged celophane wrapping..... 
🙄

I am terrible at saving - i literally have to spend any spare money i have. I recognised that i may have unresolved issues from my childhood....
My options were to see a therapist or turn my psychological need to be skint into an asset. Spending my fiat on precious metals works for me - I end up with 'money' that has to be converted into fiat before spending.  Adding that extra step allows me to have savings like 'normal' people.
Everything else (the collecting aspect and drooling over my stash like Scrooge McDuck) is a bonus.
True story.

I'm gobsmacked. What i got from that was - an unused video game with an undamaged celophane wrapping is allegedly worth a million pounds more than an unused video game with a damaged celophane wrapping..... 
🙄

Although this video does not relate primarily to coins, or coin grading, it should be of considerable importance and interest to most coin or bullion investors, collectors, slabbers, stackers, and even conspiracy theorists.
Exposing FRAUD And DECEPTION In The Retro Video Game Market
 
It was posted by Karl Jobst, and has been discussed and linked on Reddit.
      "My scathing review of the current retro video game bubble is out! These people don't care about video games, they just care about taking your money" I will not attempt to describe it in full detail, but it involves or mentions:
Mark Haspell and Deniz Kahn of Wata Games 
PWCC
Tulipmania
The Great Coin Bubble of the 80's
PCGS
RSE Archive LLC Rally RD
Eric Naierman
Merrill Lynch
NCI
Heritage Capital Corps.
James Halperin
Certified Rare Coin Galleries (CRCG)
Ebay
The press and media in general for helping to promote and distribute propaganda issued by the interested parties.
So, while I do not expect many TSF members to be Retro Video Game collectors or "investors", I think this video is educational and worth watching.
 
 

I can just imagine in 10 years time most of these sets appearing as 'antiqued' or deliberately toned to hide the milk spots......
Anyone with a clean set should be able to name their price (as long as they remain popular).

I am terrible at saving - i literally have to spend any spare money i have. I recognised that i may have unresolved issues from my childhood....
My options were to see a therapist or turn my psychological need to be skint into an asset. Spending my fiat on precious metals works for me - I end up with 'money' that has to be converted into fiat before spending.  Adding that extra step allows me to have savings like 'normal' people.
Everything else (the collecting aspect and drooling over my stash like Scrooge McDuck) is a bonus.
True story.

I am terrible at saving - i literally have to spend any spare money i have. I recognised that i may have unresolved issues from my childhood....
My options were to see a therapist or turn my psychological need to be skint into an asset. Spending my fiat on precious metals works for me - I end up with 'money' that has to be converted into fiat before spending.  Adding that extra step allows me to have savings like 'normal' people.
Everything else (the collecting aspect and drooling over my stash like Scrooge McDuck) is a bonus.
True story.

I am terrible at saving - i literally have to spend any spare money i have. I recognised that i may have unresolved issues from my childhood....
My options were to see a therapist or turn my psychological need to be skint into an asset. Spending my fiat on precious metals works for me - I end up with 'money' that has to be converted into fiat before spending.  Adding that extra step allows me to have savings like 'normal' people.
Everything else (the collecting aspect and drooling over my stash like Scrooge McDuck) is a bonus.
True story.