1 minute ago, Silverlocks said:

I take it you didn't get free shipping.

Actually, we did.

PM used to do free shipping for orders of at least 5,000 of silver, or 3,000 ounces of gold.

The gold one was harder to achieve, but we did it once or twice!

😎

2 minutes ago, Silverlocks said:

Where did you nick 3 tonnes of silver from?

I am sure you know as well as I do that we bought it from Perth Mint.

Mind you, it was a steal at the time, about £6.50 intrinsic per ounce!

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11 hours ago, theman73 said:

Now it's become a real enigma for me

Help

I can recommend a machine for that...

... or variation!

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3 hours ago, Zhorro said:

I think it is a half groat (i.e. 2d) as signified by the two dots to the right of the head.  A very nice find.

2 hours ago, theman73 said:

 

 

''I think it is a half groat (i.e. 2d) as signified by the two dots to the right of the head''

1 hour ago, richatthecroft said:

I don’t believe an Elizabeth I Half Groat has any ‘dots’ that signify the denomination- I think it’s best to weigh it and measure the diameter of the coin to determine what it is.  

S 2579,

or S 2586?

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3 hours ago, Griffles said:

Noobie question sorry, what's the difference between a stacker and collector?

If you manage to find out, please let me know!

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3 hours ago, Petra said:

What does the lettering say?

3 hours ago, theman73 said:

No idea, one of my friends who is metal detectorist found it today

I can make out some of the lettering, and I am sure you could if you tried.

It is easier with the actual coin because it is easier to turn round rather than a 4G monitor.

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3 hours ago, theman73 said:

Hi

Anyone can identify this?

 

 

 

 

3 hours ago, Dakaras said:

It's Elizabeth 1st penny...needs some scale to be sure 

3 hours ago, Zhorro said:

I think it is a half groat (i.e. 2d) as signified by the two dots to the right of the head.  A very nice find.

2 hours ago, richatthecroft said:

It’s definitely Elizabeth I, not sure of the denomination without the weight/ diameter. 

1 hour ago, richatthecroft said:

I don’t believe an Elizabeth I Half Groat has any ‘dots’ that signify the denomination- I think it’s best to weigh it and measure the diameter of the coin to determine what it is.  

1 hour ago, theman73 said:

 

I will meet him tomorrow and make better pictures

Thank you

Always try to give all the information you already have when asking.

Include:

Weight

Size

Clear photos

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On 11/02/2023 at 09:30, TeaTime said:

The simple matter is that a damaged or poorly minted coin has lost the (hefty) premium paid by the purchaser instantly - the coin to most people then becomes 'bullion' and will be considered as a commodity (valued solely on spot price) rather than a coin. How on earth the RM (and others) has managed to persuade people that this is acceptable is beyond me.  

There is always an expectation with a manufactured product that you will receive something of a quality that matches the cost.  In the case of RM  coins sadly, this is often not the case. 

No reasonable person expects perfection with a mass-produced item, but when the premiums are so high, a certain level of quality should be achieved. I guess that the RMs view of acceptable falls well below that of the average purchaser. 

It is unfortunate that, as it stands, dealers (the biggest purchaser from RM) have no incentive to call out the manufacturer when they can simply re-sell the product with a catch-all 'bullion' description. That's why i detest the use of that word when it comes to coins.

I do agree with much of what you say.

There are some parts with which I disagree:

"(hefty) premium paid by the purchaser"

Anyone can buy new gold Britannias at between 3.1% and 3.55% premium, from a leading dealer:

IMO, those are not hefty premiums.

To add some perspective to that, when Krugerrands were introduced in 1967, the ex-mint premium was 3.%. This was only available to major international banks and bullion dealers. Minimum order size was either 5,000 ot 10,000 ounces (I forget which). This did not include "free postage"!

When a UK retail investor can buy 1 piece at 3.55%, it shows how much the market has developed.

I am aware that the photos shown in the OP were "Beasts", then sure, they are at slightly higher premiums, and there is a very good argument that for this reason, they should be produced with a "premium quality finish".

"the coin to most people then becomes 'bullion' and will be considered as a commodity (valued solely on spot price) rather than a coin."

But if what you are buying is a bullion coin, then nothing has changed.

"There is always an expectation with a manufactured product that you will receive something of a quality that matches the cost."

A reasonable point on the face of it, but the premium paid should be a more important influence on this, rather than the actual price, or amount spent.

"It is unfortunate that, as it stands, dealers (the biggest purchaser from RM) have no incentive to call out the manufacturer when they can simply re-sell the product with a catch-all 'bullion' description.

That may well be true for most bullion dealers, but I would certainly prefer not to have to deal with complaints because of scuffs, bagmarks, etc., and would prefer not to have to add a caveat to some of our new products, or to have to invest time in "managing customer expectations".

In most industries, there exists a stong disincentive for any direct distributor to "call out" the manufacturer or rights owner. For example, anyone who wishes to distribute Olympic Games or Disney products must first sign a very lengthy and highly restrictive legal document which would prohibit them from doing or saying anything which may in the owners opinion, damage their reputation. In many cases, there would probably be a non-disclosure clause.

Consumers of course, are under no such restiction!

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11 hours ago, Bratnia said:

What is the difference - when you say fine gold is sometimes wrongly called 24ct?

From https://www.ukbullion.com/learning-centre/articles/the-britannia-coin

 

If you are going to look for information online or anywhere else, you need to get it from a reliable, trustworthy and informed source.

This should answer your question:

https://taxfreegold.co.uk/24caratgoldcoins.html

In particular, the first paragraph:

24 Carat Gold Coins
The first thing we should point out is that it is almost impossible to economically or commercially obtain absolutely pure gold. 24 carat gold would be absolutely pure. Before electrolytic refining, highly refined gold was usually .9995 pure (99.95%). If we convert this to carats, it would be 23.988 carats. London good delivery gold bars are acceptable at .995 which is "only" 23.88 carats. With electrolytic refining, it became commercially economic to produce .9999 fine gold, which works out to 23.9976 carats. the Royal Canadian Mint also produce a .99999 fine gold coin, advertised as the world's purest gold coin. this works out at 23.99976 carats. It follows from this, that it is more accurate to refer to coins by their metric fineness than as 24 carat.

- - -

When I tried to follow your link, I got an error message. It seems that ukbullion.com is one of those pathetic websites which blocks access for people using a VPN. I use one for security reasons.

It annoys me having to turn off the VPN to access such sites, which means I cannot access our Microsoft Teams app and a few other important resources until I turn it back on. 

Having read a little more of their page, it struck me that they have probably read some of my expert and accurate published information, then re-hashed it, but missed out some important and informative bits, possibly because they did not understand it.

"Is it only that 24ct is a 24/24 measure (100%) whereas fine gold is 99.99%, a difference of 0.001%?"

Almost right, but...

Fine gold in not necessarily 99.99%, it can be 99.9% 99.95%, or 99.5%. It could even be 99%.

The term "fine gold" is an inexact, lazy, expression, although many people use it as a kind of shorthand.

Similarly "24ct" is also an inexact, lazy, expression, used in a similar way.

It is similar to saying "football". In the UK, most people would understand that as meaning soccer (Association Football), but most Americans would think you meant American Football. Other Brits might think you meant rugby.

"When money was gold, such as Sovereign's"

You you used a greengrocers' apostrophe!

" I guess even doing a simple "ring" test (balance on finger and tap with another coin) is inadvisable with 2013 onward fine gold coins? At least if you desire to avoid deformation."

Wrong assumption. Gold is not putty. It is not so soft. Unless you were worried about deforming your finger, ping away as much as you like.

I did not understand some other parts of your questions, but I am sure you can find answers here or elsewhere.

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4 minutes ago, Junior said:

Exchange vs purchase, are these two words not synonyms?

 

No!

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On 09/02/2023 at 22:05, MarioZG said:

I'm aware that bullion gold coins might come with some defects, but as I'm struggling to find guidelines what is acceptable and what is too much...

In particular, are marks below something you'd expect and accept on bullion coin bought as new?

There is another factor which you have probably not realised.

Although you did not state which type of gold bullion coins you meant, your images were of gold Yales of Beaufort. These are made of "fine gold", sometimes wrongly called 24ct, as are many modern gold bullion coins, and therefore are quite soft, and scratch and scuff more easily.

Older gold coins, originally made for the rough, tough world of circulation, such as gold sovereigns were, and still are, made of 22ct gold. Some countries, notably the USA used .900 fine gold. The addition of copper, and often silver, helped to make these harder, and therefore more resistant to scuffing and scratches. Add to tje fact that, as they were made primarily for trade and circulation use, very few people would be looking at them so critically and closely that they would notice slight imperfections. For example, when did you examine look at any shiny new pennies or twopences in your change for scratches, scuffs and bagmarks?

This provides another argument in favour of 22ct bullion coins rather than 24ct one. This does not mean or imply that I think all modern gold bullion coins should be 22ct. There are arguments both ways. Fine gold coins are the natural colour of gold, and not the awful coppery red / pink / rose which omitting the traces of silver causes.

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1 hour ago, pricha said:

It seems a bit OCD to me.  Coins get knocked about. It happens.  Many on the forum have sold proofs that are basically no longer proof and accept a loss of premium without tears. 

The cost to the mint to treat every coin minted as a proof would be huge , and the cost passed on to the customer.  

I'd say if you wanted to avoid paying premium on gold coins then buy bars. 

If you want perfection ( as best as you can hope for ) buy proof coins. 

Wanting the best of both worlds is not going to happen. 

 

"Wanting the best of both worlds is not going to happen."

Wanting it does happen, getting it doesn't!

18 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

Just Seen This - King Charles Coronation Logo

KING CHARLES III

CORONATION 6TH MAY 2023

Looks good to me.

Source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-64599029

King Charles coronation logo created by iPhone designer

It is highly likely to feature on a forthcoming coin.

😎

And, here is our preview coin image:

It would look good as a Coloured Silver Proof Crown!

😎

14 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

Just Seen This - King Charles Coronation Logo

Looks good to me.

Source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-64599029

King Charles coronation logo created by iPhone designer

It is highly likely to feature on a forthcoming coin.

😎

44 minutes ago, Foster88 said:

I think the design is good and it includes a representation of all four nations of UK.

So everyone should be happy.

It was late last night when I spotted the news item, and I was trying to get a relatively early night, but it may be worth quoting the whole BBC article:

By Sean Coughlan
Royal correspondent
The official logo for King Charles III's coronation, to feature in street parties, social media and souvenirs, has been revealed by Buckingham Palace.

It has been created by Sir Jony Ive, known for his innovative designs of Apple gadgets, including the iPhone.

This is a more traditional image, with flowers forming the shape of the St Edward's crown used in the coronation.

The floral design highlights the "optimism of spring" and reflects the King's love of nature, says Sir Jony.

"The design was inspired by King Charles's love of the planet, nature, and his deep concern for the natural world," said the former Apple design guru, who is more usually associated with sleek tech designs of equipment such as iMacs and iPods.

Who is Apple's top designer Jony Ive?

The logo, to be used for events over the coronation long weekend in May, features a rose, thistle, daffodil and shamrock - emblems from across the United Kingdom.

It's in contrast to the very stark design of the new King Charles stamps revealed this week, which has no crown or decoration.

The logo, also available in a Welsh-language version, is the latest detail to be revealed from the planned celebrations to mark the coronation, which will be held at Westminster Abbey on 6 May.

The day will include a carriage procession and traditional appearances on the Buckingham Palace balcony, although it is still not known who will be attending - with no confirmation yet whether the Duke and Duchess of Sussex will be there.

On Sunday 7 May there will be a music concert and light show at Windsor Castle, and this week a public ballot opened for the 10,000 free tickets on offer for the event.

There will be an extra bank holiday on Monday 8 May, with events highlighting the work of volunteers.

I noticed the Telegraph print version has the story today, but it also states:

"The design will feature throughout next month's celebrations. It will also be used on all official merchandise." I guess this a is typical Telegraph journalist error, as iot does not explain or list any related celebrations next month (March).

I not the online version today has differnt wording, possibly having been spotted and corected:

"The design will feature throughout the celebrations. It will also be used on all official merchandise."

The Coronation of His Majesty The King is scheduied to take place on Saturday 6 May, 2023 at Westminster Abbey.

This design announcement is so new, that @ChardsCoinandBullionDealer probably does not yet have a "Register Your Interest" page yet for any Coronation commemorative coins!

😎

14 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

Just Seen This - King Charles Coronation Logo

Looks good to me.

Source: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-64599029

King Charles coronation logo created by iPhone designer

It is highly likely to feature on a forthcoming coin.

😎

Here is an image of the Welsh language version:

I would like to have obtained this image earlier, but was anticipating a leek leak, which failed to materialise!

The Welsh wording is: 

Y BRENIN CHARLES III

Y CORONI 6 MAI 2023

😎

9 hours ago, Petra said:

Probably a crown? Possibly with the King and Queen on?🤔🧐 very souvenir ish design?

I think a Coronation crown will have King Charles III on it, without Queen Camilla.

It is also likely that there will be different coin issues featuring both, but these will not be Coronation issues.

😎

5 hours ago, Junior said:

Well, the closest event I can think of was 6 weeks ago when I was down in Florida for vacation. I had flown down there with a tube of mostly common Morgans dollars in search of a rarer Morgan dollar. Found what I was looking for and paid for the rarer Morgan dollar using almost all of the common Morgan dollars I had brought with me. The purchase involved using silver to buy silver and no currency was exchanged in the process. The value of what I was offering was compared to the value of what the seller wanted and we negotiated until a deal was reached. This might not be exactly what you’re asking for, but it’s the closest thing I can think of.

From what you say, it looks like you did an exchange at a coin shop. This is hardly comparable with using gold and silver to purchase groceries, and other everyday shopping / spending activities.

😎

On 08/02/2023 at 11:02, GoldDiggerDave said:

Just for a bit of fun, @CoinStruck sent me this Western Australian gold nugget. It weights 0.826g

What would you expect the purity to be in its natural form?

I do have the results but it would be interesting to see what you would think the composition would be.  I’ll let you know the results once a few people comment. 

Did you Niton test it?

😎

On 08/02/2023 at 09:04, GoldDiggerDave said:

I collected a parcel this morning and the guy on the counter is saying the Royal Mail are trying to close all collection offices,  I asked him how's that going to work and it's been suggested the Royal Mail will just try 3 home delivers on consecutive days then if you have not taken the delivery it's retuned to sender.      

If this happens I suppose they will give you an option to send to a post office to collect.....I really don't fancy a load of PM's on the back shelf of my local convince store for me to collect.....Any posties here?  @watchesandwhisky

On a positive note, they are better than Hermes, a.k.a. Evri!

😎

On 08/02/2023 at 02:29, Foster88 said:

A new stamp of HM The King gets the ‘stamp’ of approval

The new postage stamp we will see is to be released from 4th April this year.

A new stamp gets the Royal ‘stamp’ of approval, I thought this may be of interest to fellow members given our shared interest, its another obvious change. But this time it isn’t the change of monarch on our coins but the change of our stamps.

A King without a crown. (On the stamp)

A stamp fit for a King of the modern world?

Its all change again.

(I probably haven’t posted this in the right section of the forum, so admins see fit to move.)

King Charles unadorned new stamp design revealed https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-64554857

I'm suprised that @HerefordBullyun has not responded yet recommending that KC visits Blackpool, and suggests he gets me to show him around!

😎

On 08/02/2023 at 09:57, Petra said:

Not the first King not to wear a crown, however, first not to have a crown at all on the stamp

That was a "notty" answer to a possibly knotty question,was it not?

😎

On 08/02/2023 at 16:53, carrigher82 said:

Silver to Gold

Silly question probably but for conversation sake and at current levels,  how many oz of fine silver would you trade for a gold sovereign and feel that both parties were receiving a fair trade, barring in mind silver premiums remain ridiculous and dealersor shops tend to not buy back all.that premium? 18.46 silver spot, 1550 gold spot at time of writing. 

 

 

Silver to Gold

When I saw the title, I thought it was going to be a revival or alchemy..

I "how to" guide!

😎

1 hour ago, Midasfrog said:

There is a mistake with the 1910 it should be 3rd from the right not 6th from the left 🙈

 

Did you count the serrations?

😎

On 09/02/2023 at 16:46, GoldCore said:

This will be the biggest theft of the century

In 1983 a total of 6,840 gold bars were stolen from a high security vault in Heathrow in what is still considered to be ‘the crime of the century’.

40 years on and the gold heist is still the biggest single-theft of gold in history. What’s incredible is that the perpetrators never even expected to steal any gold. They were instead expecting to find around £3 million in cash. 

After failing to get into the targeted vault the armed robbers discovered three tons of gold bullion as well as diamonds and cash. Recorded testimony of one of the security guards recalls the delight of one of the robbers when he realises some previously looked over grey boxes contain gold bars that are ‘four nines!’ the purest of gold bullion bars. 

This weekend sees the release of the six-part drama The Gold, in the UK. The series is based on the infamous 1983 Brinks Mat heist that saw six-armed men steal over £26 million of gold bullion from the security depot at Heathrow. Today that same gold would be worth over £100 million. 

Accidental Treasure Hunting

What was supposed to be a quick smash and grab involving a few bags to help carry away £3 million in cash, soon turned into a protracted, drawn out operation. The operation ended up taking over two hours and catapulted the six men into history books as the perpetrators of the ‘crime of the century’. In many ways, the crime is still ongoing. Only half of the gold has ever been recovered. 

In total 6,840 gold bars were stolen along with cash and diamonds worth £113,000. Of course, the tale doesn’t end there. It is very difficult to make gold just ‘disappear’ and convert into far more easily hidden cash.

A trail of death and violence has followed the Brinks Mat gold for the last forty years. The gang ended up roping in a number of nefarious individuals to help them smelt and disperse the gold in order to realise some of its cash value. The proceeds from the robbery are thought to have fuelled the London Docklands property boom as well as the UK cocaine market. 

Worried about the integrity of the London Gold Market, the Bank of England had to step in and rescue the gold’s owners, the banking and gold-trading arm of Johnson Matthey, when they collapsed less than a year later. 

Our Obsession with Gold

The trailers for the BBC series have prompted many viewers to recall back to the time when the robbery had just happened. It’s fixed in many peoples’ memories; it was such a significant theft. But I wonder if a standard robbery of cash would have had the same lasting effect? I suspect not. 

There is something about gold that grabs most people’s attention. Take the robbers who stole the gold, for example. There is nothing to suggest that these were men familiar with the spot price of gold, no indication that they saw those 6,000 bars of gold and knew how much it was worth. But, they did know it was worth making the extra effort to steal, instead of trying to get at the planned £3 million in cash. 

Gold is one of the few things we have in common with ancestors from long ago. We desired it 1,000 years ago, 500 years ago, 100 years ago, and (clearly) forty years ago. Just as we do today. There are few things we instinctively know about finance and investments, but the need to own gold is one of them. 

Why Gareth Soloway is “unbelievably bullish” on gold and silver

 

This has something to do with the fact that the yellow metal has stood the test of time. Some psychologists have also postulated that we are attracted to precious metals and stones because they shine and sparkle.

Much like the reflection of the sun on the water, the most necessary resource that the human brain is designed to spot and identify. This might be one of the reasons, but I think it’s because we know that the gold our multiple-great grandfather dug up and wore proudly round his neck or exchanged for livestock and land, still exists today.

Gold is timeless. As we see from the disaster that was the aftermath of the Brinks-Mat robbery, it is near-impossible to disappear. 

In fact, it is rumoured that much of the unrecovered gold has made its way back into the gold market through various ways and means. It’s still pure gold and arguably back in its rightful place. 

Small fry in today’s money

What’s really fascinating though is that the theft of over (in today’s money) £100 million of gold was the crime of the century but of the 20th century. Because there is no way that it compares in any way to the ongoing theft that we are currently experiencing in the 21st century. 

I am, of course, referring to the inflationary efforts of central banks. 

The Bank of England inflation calculator shows that £10 in 1983 (the year of Brinks Mat robbery) would now be worth £29.95. That’s not because interest rates have been so generous or because your money has been so wisely invested. It’s because the pound is now worth three times less than it would have been worth, then. Something that cost you £10 then, would now cost you nearly £30. 

For the US Dollar, an item that cost you $10 would today cost you $29.33. A similar rate of depreciation that has occurred to the GBP. 

It’s a similar story in the Eurozone, since its launch in 1999, €10 is now worth €16.40. 

That gold today might have gone up over 5 times in price (and so arguably outperformed inflation), but we’re still talking about the same amount of gold. The thieves haven’t managed to make more gold. Instead, as time passed, gold has hugely increased in price relative to the British pound, dollar, etc. But, more importantly, it has held its value. 

Whoever has been holding onto that gold since 1983 will have stolen something that was worth around £280 per ounce, and today is worth £1,560 per ounce (at the time of writing).

 

They have the same amount of gold and it has the same amount of value, just an increased price. Yet the £3 million in cash they wanted to steal would be worth significantly less, three times less. 

When we admire how much the price of gold has gone up since the Brinks Mat robbery, we’re actually grave dancing. Because what we’re celebrating is the theft of value from fiat currencies or a loss of wealth for those who have been saving in cash and cash-based assets.

That is why the central banking antics of the 21st century will be the biggest theft of the century and we’re not even a quarter of the way through it yet. 

Looking forward to watching The Gold but no access to the BBC? It’s due out in the US later in the year, but in the meantime check out our gold short for a bit more Gold drama. 

 

"This will be the biggest theft of the century"

Did you mean "was"?

P.S. Good example of "clickbait"!

😎

8 hours ago, honestinjun said:

NO but I have crypto

Oh dear!

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