Store of value?

[PhilOdgny]

12 hours ago, Anteater said:

Well that's not a fair comparison - buying jelly-beans would be a better store of value than that

I've looked at income protection/illness insurance several times in the past as on paper it's something that would have made sense for me to have, but after reading a lot of small print I was never able to get any confidence that I'd be able to actually claim successfully if I needed to.

Yes, the key point here is being self-employed which means alot of the conditions which allow the insurer to escape liability apply.  If you are employed it should be a different story.  Always read the small print.  Previously when I was a limited company owner/director I never took out such policies as the small print made it clear I wouldn't be able to make a successful claim.

[CANV]

land/property is and always has been the best 'store of wealth'.  in the UK its tax friendly for the big boys with trusts n stuff..  the usurpers with their buy to let mini empires are being taxed to feck now..  

everything is being taxed to feck. they will be coming after the pensions next . having a pile of gold or diamonds off grid may not make you rich, but it will keep it out of the hands of the taxman..

 

[sixgun]

11 hours ago, Roy said:

CA- communist agenda? 😁

I'll wait for the gold bars, looks like Nadir Mint?

Well i saw photos from inside the mint before it started - the various bits of kit - it was a new setup. I don't think these photos were released publicly. So i think it is a new mint which is attached to a new refinery where they refine the metal in Turkey. Kinesis has gone for the integrated approach. They have interests in miners and they take their metal, refine it and produce the product.  

Edited December 19, 2022 by sixgun

[honestinjun]

Why do people have to make this more complicated than it is? Over the last 30 years the price of gold has risen 1400%. In the last 50 years, the dollar has lost 85% of its value - not rocket science!

 

[Bars]

5 hours ago, honestinjun said:

Why do people have to make this more complicated than it is? Over the last 30 years the price of gold has risen 1400%. In the last 50 years, the dollar has lost 85% of its value - not rocket science!

 

Trust @honestinjun to give an honest assessment

[goldsilverdash]

According to Investopedia, stores of value (other than currency) "... such as gold, silver, real estate, and fine art, have proved their worth over time. The price of gold, in particular, will often skyrocket during times of national peril or when a financial shock hits the broad markets, earning it a reputation as the ultimate safe haven." They go on:

Quote

 

While the relative value of such stores of value will fluctuate over time, they can be counted on to retain some value in almost any scenario. This is especially true if there is a finite supply of the store of value.

 

Source: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/storeofvalue.asp
 

It is hard to imagine that gold will ever become worthless. Fiat currencies becoming worthless, on the other hand, is not hard to imagine, and it has happened many times.

 

Edited December 19, 2022 by goldsilverdash

[Mcgrimes]

2 hours ago, goldsilverdash said:

According to Investopedia, stores of value (other than currency) "... such as gold, silver, real estate, and fine art, have proved their worth over time. The price of gold, in particular, will often skyrocket during times of national peril or when a financial shock hits the broad markets, earning it a reputation as the ultimate safe haven." They go on:

Source: https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/storeofvalue.asp
 

It is hard to imagine that gold will ever become worthless. Fiat currencies becoming worthless, on the other hand, is not hard to imagine, and it has happened many times.

 

I’m glad to see that someone else has bothered to look up the recognised examples of store of value and seen currency listed, even if there are more reputable sources out there.

 Why is it hard to imagine gold being worthless, even when it has petty much no industrial use?  (Apart from the fact that is humans find it irresistible!)

 As an example, in the event of a sustained nuclear war, I’d rather be holding cans of beans than a sovereign.
 

[Mcgrimes]

11 hours ago, honestinjun said:

Why do people have to make this more complicated than it is? Over the last 30 years the price of gold has risen 1400%. In the last 50 years, the dollar has lost 85% of its value - not rocket science!

 

What an unfair comparison, using two different time scales! Over the past 9 months, gold has lost 10% of its value against the dollar….

 Isn’t it easy to Cherry pick to prove a point.

 Now why don’t you look at the lost growth opportunities of having gold in a paid safety deposit box against pound Sterling stored in a interest bearing bank account over a long term duration?

[goldsilverdash]

1 hour ago, Mcgrimes said:

 Why is it hard to imagine gold being worthless, even when it has petty much no industrial use?  (Apart from the fact that is humans find it irresistible!)
 

Well, isn't it the case that people all over the world have attached value to gold for thousands of years? It is hard to imagine a scenario in which they would just stop. But maybe if it becomes possible to manufacture gold, or if an enourmous quantity of gold would crash into earth?

[Mcgrimes]

19 minutes ago, goldsilverdash said:

Well, isn't it the case that people all over the world have attached value to gold for thousands of years? It is hard to imagine a scenario in which they would just stop. But maybe if it becomes possible to manufacture gold, or if an enourmous quantity of gold would crash into earth?

We’ve been trying to turn poop into gold since at least the medieval times 😄

[Gordy]

On 18/12/2022 at 10:41, ZRPMs said:

I might be showing my age a little but here we go. Being self employed most of my working life I used to pay for income insurance. I never thought it was too expensive for the peace of mind it gave me at £26 a month. Roll on about 15/ 16 years with only a modest increase to I think the last payment I made was just over £30. the company was Cirencester friendly. I took ill. Started coughing blood up. Panic sets in, thinking the worst. no energy and couldn't work. eventually got a diagnosis of Sarcoidosis. Curable and not the big C. Any how tried to claim on the insurance. All I could get from them was 2 lots of £80. That's after paying in, lets say an average of £28 X 12 months X 15 years = £5040. Had I been putting the money into Sovereigns instead of the insurance. not only would I have still had my £5k but the ones bought at the beginning would have been worth more than 7 times what I'd paid for them. Sound's like a great store of value to me. 

indeed, as a self employed ships captain for over 30 years you need to become either insolvent or hospitalised for over 30 days to claim on a lot of those dodgy insurances, go the P.A.Y.E route and you get company sick pay or SSP for a period of time with little or no hassle, not worth the paper they're written on but the brokers are paid to sell these policies to you so big them up, they do not care about you or the unicorns!!!

[Gordy]

54 minutes ago, goldsilverdash said:

Well, isn't it the case that people all over the world have attached value to gold for thousands of years? It is hard to imagine a scenario in which they would just stop. But maybe if it becomes possible to manufacture gold, or if an enourmous quantity of gold would crash into earth?

quick example for you, around 15 years ago ish, i think, I paid if my memory holds up, around £120.00 for a 9ct gold curb chain and weighed it the other day.... its over 38grams

now would my bank have paid that much over the same period in interest if I'd have stuck that £120.00 in the bank...

dont know, i cant be 'rsed to look at how it would have calculated over that period of time

[James32]

Just now, Gordy said:

quick example for you, around 15 years ago ish, i think, I paid if my memory holds up, around £120.00 for a 9ct gold curb chain and weighed it the other day.... its over 38grams

now would my bank have paid that much over the same period in interest if I'd have stuck that £120.00 in the bank...

dont know, i cant be 'rsed to look at how it would have calculated over that period of time

Quick question...

Would £150 + post work??? Its 15 years old after all. 

[Happypanda88]

44 minutes ago, Gordy said:

quick example for you, around 15 years ago ish, i think, I paid if my memory holds up, around £120.00 for a 9ct gold curb chain and weighed it the other day.... its over 38grams

now would my bank have paid that much over the same period in interest if I'd have stuck that £120.00 in the bank...

dont know, i cant be 'rsed to look at how it would have calculated over that period of time

Gold is a barbarous relic didn't you know !  Why hold it ?

@James32 is doing you a favour. Out of the goodness of heart he is offering £150 for it, that's £30 profit to you !  😆

[Happypanda88]

2 hours ago, Mcgrimes said:

What an unfair comparison, using two different time scales! Over the past 9 months, gold has lost 10% of its value against the dollar….

 Isn’t it easy to Cherry pick to prove a point.

 Now why don’t you look at the lost growth opportunities of having gold in a paid safety deposit box against pound Sterling stored in a interest bearing bank account over a long term duration?

Now I understand why gold flows from the West to East !  🤣

 

[flyingveepixie]

On 17/12/2022 at 21:30, Anteater said:

I think that gold is sometimes oversold as a special/magical "store of value" by people within the "stacking" community. The fact that it's performed well so far this century is, if anything, a bad thing for a store of value because there's no strong reason to think that any buying power gained over the last few decades can't be lost over the next few decades. (If circumstances can change one way they can change the other too.)

It is, however, unusual in terms of the combination of factors it can provide:

- maintaining value in the very long term (doesn't tend to go to zero)
- very long term durability
- fungibility
- transportability
- potential for privacy
- lack of reliance on legal, physical or information infrastructure.

 

 

Bearing in mind that fiat is constantly devaluing in the direction of it's true intrinsic value...

And then there is the further question of trust (or rather lack of it)  in the banking system.

The whole question of value is arbitrary anyway.  Questions of limited supply notwothstanding, gold or anything else is only valuable because everyone thinks it is and agrees it is.  In the same way that a pound note is just a piece of paper, a sovereign is just a fancy lump of metal.

As someone said above : in the event of a nuclear war a can of beans or a pack of potassium Iodide tablets would likely have more value than a sov.

Edited December 20, 2022 by flyingveepixie

[honestinjun]

The Fed came into being in 1913. What cost 2 cents then, now cost a dollar. An ounce of gold cost $20.63. An oz of gold now costs $1800. As the 'mercans say 'go figure'.

Edited December 20, 2022 by honestinjun

[flyingveepixie]

4 minutes ago, honestinjun said:

The Fed came into being in 1913. What cost 2 cents then, now cost a dollar. An ounce of gold cost $20.63. An oz of gold now costs $1800. As the 'mercans say 'go figure'.

I believe the devaluation of the USD since 1913 is around 96%....or possibly even more..

Edited December 20, 2022 by flyingveepixie

[GoldDiggerDave]

5 minutes ago, flyingveepixie said:

I believe the devaluation of the USD since 1913 is around 96%....or possibly even more..

Same for the pound it’s taken the plebs 110 years to realise they are being ripped off by the system.    TBH no matter what form or where we try and store wealth the system is coming for it.  It will get to the point where the average family man can not afford to hold any assets and let’s be blunt paying a mortgage is a liability not an asset same for holding gold for some people those who can’t afford to hold it as inflation skins them alive.  
 

I can see by March/April 2023 the standard rate on a credit card will be 50%+   It’s a simple system to keep stripping the 99% of their wealth, rising  house prices are sold as a good thing what the masses don’t see it’s making them poorer and especially their children far worse off and all generations going forward.   
 

so holding gold imo is far from being foolproof or a good form of stored wealth it depends on the individual holding it. 

[JamesH]

13 minutes ago, GoldDiggerDave said:

rising  house prices are sold as a good thing what the masses don’t see it’s making them poorer and especially their children far worse off and all generations going forward.   

Exactly this…thought it for a long time and have always remained in a very modest home as would rather be without mortgage (single digits in years remaining now) than deal with stresses of being overstretched. Goodness knows how my children will ever afford it…

[ZRPMs]

37 minutes ago, JamesH said:

Exactly this…thought it for a long time and have always remained in a very modest home as would rather be without mortgage (single digits in years remaining now) than deal with stresses of being overstretched. Goodness knows how my children will ever afford it…

I've seen this coming for quite a while. Not that I'm any sort of oracle, but I've been in the lettings business for 23 years. I was given some advise when I was younger regarding the housing situation from a friends father, a builder/ landlord. He gave us a master class one day when we were sat at the river fishing. He told us that as soon as we could we should get our own house. he said " start with a modest house. Nothing fancy, A fixer up. Save hard and work hard. The earlier you can the better. Don't forget enjoyment but put the effort in early. The mortgage will eventually be paid, but the rent man never goes away. He was a fountain of good advise. Over the years he got me in to BTL as a prop for my pension and it developed from there. Lots of hard work, Long hours, many sacrifices, some good luck and I've managed to get to a relatively comfortable position. My brother who took a slightly different path. still lives with our father. He's in a position now where he'll never buy his own property. It's become beyond the reach of so many. As for my children I'm really worried about their future. Apparently "we will all own nothing and be happy about it" eternally on the tread mill.

I think most on this forum realise the problems and its why we try to do something about it. As I've mentioned, I've had a bit of good luck. Right place at the right time. I know my children will have a house each of their own as I'll give them each a 2 bed mid terrace. Nothing fancy and only the basic starter home. I only hope they appreciate It and use it as a leg up and not just as an entitled hand out. I've tried to pass on the advice I had, But I'm also aware that things today bear no resemblance to how they were when I started.

I watched a YouTube vid about trying to preserve what you have, I can't remember the name of the vid or who was in it really, so I can't credit them, but in it they talked about how in general, before the war The husband went to work. His wages paid for him, his wife and their 4 or 5 children. WWII hits. Then after the war the husband and increasing the wife goes to work. So that's a change from 1 earner to 2 earners to maintain the same family. move on to the next generation and the husband and wife are working then the family goes from 4 to 5 children to the 2 to 3 children. Next generation and there's the introduction of unsecured debt. Loans then credit cards. Move on again, Now we have both adults working, levels of unsecured debt, reduced number of children had later on in life, Instead of early 20's more in to their 30's. All the time The families spending power is reduced and the dynamics change towards having less and not getting it until later. To where we are today. Everything seams to be at crisis point. nobody can hardly afford anything, least of all a home. And now the WEF are trying to promote and ram it in to us that "We will own nothing and be happy about it"

Sorry for the gloom. but its is quite disconcerting, Fortunately, some of us are still switched on.

[Bars]

1 hour ago, ZRPMs said:

I've seen this coming for quite a while. Not that I'm any sort of oracle, but I've been in the lettings business for 23 years. I was given some advise when I was younger regarding the housing situation from a friends father, a builder/ landlord. He gave us a master class one day when we were sat at the river fishing. He told us that as soon as we could we should get our own house. he said " start with a modest house. Nothing fancy, A fixer up. Save hard and work hard. The earlier you can the better. Don't forget enjoyment but put the effort in early. The mortgage will eventually be paid, but the rent man never goes away. He was a fountain of good advise. Over the years he got me in to BTL as a prop for my pension and it developed from there. Lots of hard work, Long hours, many sacrifices, some good luck and I've managed to get to a relatively comfortable position. My brother who took a slightly different path. still lives with our father. He's in a position now where he'll never buy his own property. It's become beyond the reach of so many. As for my children I'm really worried about their future. Apparently "we will all own nothing and be happy about it" eternally on the tread mill.

I think most on this forum realise the problems and its why we try to do something about it. As I've mentioned, I've had a bit of good luck. Right place at the right time. I know my children will have a house each of their own as I'll give them each a 2 bed mid terrace. Nothing fancy and only the basic starter home. I only hope they appreciate It and use it as a leg up and not just as an entitled hand out. I've tried to pass on the advice I had, But I'm also aware that things today bear no resemblance to how they were when I started.

I watched a YouTube vid about trying to preserve what you have, I can't remember the name of the vid or who was in it really, so I can't credit them, but in it they talked about how in general, before the war The husband went to work. His wages paid for him, his wife and their 4 or 5 children. WWII hits. Then after the war the husband and increasing the wife goes to work. So that's a change from 1 earner to 2 earners to maintain the same family. move on to the next generation and the husband and wife are working then the family goes from 4 to 5 children to the 2 to 3 children. Next generation and there's the introduction of unsecured debt. Loans then credit cards. Move on again, Now we have both adults working, levels of unsecured debt, reduced number of children had later on in life, Instead of early 20's more in to their 30's. All the time The families spending power is reduced and the dynamics change towards having less and not getting it until later. To where we are today. Everything seams to be at crisis point. nobody can hardly afford anything, least of all a home. And now the WEF are trying to promote and ram it in to us that "We will own nothing and be happy about it"

Sorry for the gloom. but its is quite disconcerting, Fortunately, some of us are still switched on.

Adopt me please!

[Faiz]

1 hour ago, ZRPMs said:

I've seen this coming for quite a while. Not that I'm any sort of oracle, but I've been in the lettings business for 23 years. I was given some advise when I was younger regarding the housing situation from a friends father, a builder/ landlord. He gave us a master class one day when we were sat at the river fishing. He told us that as soon as we could we should get our own house. he said " start with a modest house. Nothing fancy, A fixer up. Save hard and work hard. The earlier you can the better. Don't forget enjoyment but put the effort in early. The mortgage will eventually be paid, but the rent man never goes away. He was a fountain of good advise. Over the years he got me in to BTL as a prop for my pension and it developed from there. Lots of hard work, Long hours, many sacrifices, some good luck and I've managed to get to a relatively comfortable position. My brother who took a slightly different path. still lives with our father. He's in a position now where he'll never buy his own property. It's become beyond the reach of so many. As for my children I'm really worried about their future. Apparently "we will all own nothing and be happy about it" eternally on the tread mill.

I think most on this forum realise the problems and its why we try to do something about it. As I've mentioned, I've had a bit of good luck. Right place at the right time. I know my children will have a house each of their own as I'll give them each a 2 bed mid terrace. Nothing fancy and only the basic starter home. I only hope they appreciate It and use it as a leg up and not just as an entitled hand out. I've tried to pass on the advice I had, But I'm also aware that things today bear no resemblance to how they were when I started.

I watched a YouTube vid about trying to preserve what you have, I can't remember the name of the vid or who was in it really, so I can't credit them, but in it they talked about how in general, before the war The husband went to work. His wages paid for him, his wife and their 4 or 5 children. WWII hits. Then after the war the husband and increasing the wife goes to work. So that's a change from 1 earner to 2 earners to maintain the same family. move on to the next generation and the husband and wife are working then the family goes from 4 to 5 children to the 2 to 3 children. Next generation and there's the introduction of unsecured debt. Loans then credit cards. Move on again, Now we have both adults working, levels of unsecured debt, reduced number of children had later on in life, Instead of early 20's more in to their 30's. All the time The families spending power is reduced and the dynamics change towards having less and not getting it until later. To where we are today. Everything seams to be at crisis point. nobody can hardly afford anything, least of all a home. And now the WEF are trying to promote and ram it in to us that "We will own nothing and be happy about it"

Sorry for the gloom. but its is quite disconcerting, Fortunately, some of us are still switched on.

The same philosophy as my late father in law. He would bang on about it to everyone, but only a few would listen. I wish he was alive today, we would have made a wicked duo. 

[JohnA1]

I originally followed my father's career.

He died having no idea why I was doing what I was doing instead of following his example: 1/3rd of salary into investing, 1/3rd paying back the family, 1/3rd for living expenses. He thought I was a spenderella fool.

He graduated in 1950, I did in 1985.

Well I recently did the sums in purchasing power using gold ounces. I converted into dollars (exchange rates at the time) and gold spot at the time. It was illuminating.

As a young officer he was getting every month the equivalent of about two ounces of gold

I was getting about one

Young grads nowadays get half an ounce.

That puts erroding purchasing power into perspective, it is not our imagination - we are being ripped off

Edited December 26, 2022 by JohnA1

[SidS]

On 18/12/2022 at 16:35, sixgun said:

You will say but i will stick with BTC - i will repeat something like 98% of BTC is held by 2% of the holders. A handful of holders have control of an electronic token backed by nothing. 

When Elon Musk can raise or crash the price with a tweet, it appears anything but stable.