Store of value?

[Mcgrimes]

26 minutes ago, Happypanda88 said:

The USD being accepted globally does not imply that it is a store of value, especially when it is worth only 2% from a hundred plus years ago.

No fiat currencies in my book are a store of value.

 

You’re entitled to your opinion, but by definition, a currency is a store of value, irrespective of its efficiency over a given time frame.

[ZRPMs]

As I understand it, currency really is only the current measure of exchange. currently its little sheets of polymer. It was cloth paper. Go back to the middle ages it was a split stick with notches (tally sticks). Its been shells, beads, Tabaco, I think its even been gold and silver. Any way it always gets debased. At that point people look for other things such as commodities to store their wealth. Something that has intrinsic value that once sold into the present currency maintains its spending power. Admittedly values and desirability's fluctuate. But as a rule, Gold and silver has done pretty well since perhaps just before the bronze age. Quite a bit better track record than our modern fiat based sheets of paper and polymer. Even when it was currency its only problem was that it ended up being debased by the authority of the day with cheaper metal. 

[Faiz]

1 hour ago, Happypanda88 said:

The USD being accepted globally does not imply that it is a store of value, especially when it is worth only 2% from a hundred plus years ago.

No fiat currencies in my book are a store of value.

 

The whole point of fiat is so that it can be debased. Printed to oblivion. Doesn’t sound like a store of value to me. We went from a gold money system, to a gold-backed fiat system, to a completely fiat system. All world currencies are backed by nothing. It’s just the confidence of the end user that allows this system to continue. One should think, why was gold and silver systematically removed from the money equation. The answer is quite obvious really. 

[dicker]

I think the differentiation is that Gold is intrinsically a non interest bearing / dividend bearing asset.  It also does not permit the holder any rights (ability to vote on the direction or a company etc)   

Therefore it stores value and nothing else.  

Just my thoughts!

Best

Dicker

[Mcgrimes]

20 minutes ago, dicker said:

I think the differentiation is that Gold is intrinsically a non interest bearing / dividend bearing asset.  It also does not permit the holder any rights (ability to vote on the direction or a company etc)   

Therefore it stores value and nothing else.  

Just my thoughts!

Best

Dicker

Completely agree, apart from the fact it looks petty as well!

 

[Mcgrimes]

38 minutes ago, Faiz said:

The whole point of fiat is so that it can be debased. Printed to oblivion. Doesn’t sound like a store of value to me. We went from a gold money system, to a gold-backed fiat system, to a completely fiat system. All world currencies are backed by nothing. It’s just the confidence of the end user that allows this system to continue. One should think, why was gold and silver systematically removed from the money equation. The answer is quite obvious really. 

Don’t forget that before gold, we also used salt and farm animals as a currency. 
An obvious demonstration for currency being a store of value is that you can sell a gold sovereign today, and buy it back again next week. There may be a price fluctuation either way, but there’s a clear store of value over the period, unless you disagree.

For whatever reason you guys hold gold, keep stacking! Just don’t expect to be using it as a currency anytime soon as it’s impractical to do so.

 As a real point of contention, do you see Bitcoin as a store of value?

[JamesH]

6 minutes ago, Mcgrimes said:so.

As a real point of contention, do you see Bitcoin as a store of value?

No. Not to say that it isn’t, I just don’t understand it well enough to place enough faith in it as a store of value

[Mcgrimes]

3 minutes ago, JamesH said:

No. Not to say that it isn’t, I just don’t understand it well enough to place enough faith in it as a store of value

There’s definitely advocates on both sides

[Faiz]

13 minutes ago, Mcgrimes said:

Don’t forget that before gold, we also used salt and farm animals as a currency. 
An obvious demonstration for currency being a store of value is that you can sell a gold sovereign today, and buy it back again next week. There may be a price fluctuation either way, but there’s a clear store of value over the period, unless you disagree.

For whatever reason you guys hold gold, keep stacking! Just don’t expect to be using it as a currency anytime soon as it’s impractical to do so.

 As a real point of contention, do you see Bitcoin as a store of value?

Yes, as long as it remains proof of work 

[sixgun]

'Gold and money and everything else is credit' - JP Morgan

1 oz of gold never alters in value it is always worth 1 oz of gold. Gold is money - if you value gold in terms of money then how can it alter in value?
GBP, USD are no longer linked to gold - so they aren't money - they are fiat currencies. They are worth something b/c the governments say they are but we know governments always lie.
Counterfeit money - fiat currencies have no intrinsic value, they are a confidence trick. Once confidence is lost, the illusion evaporates and we see they are worthless.

Central banks aim at certain inflation rates - that means they aim to inflate the 'money' supply and so steal away your energy. They cannot do this with gold and this is why they don't want us to use it. Now we have the blockchain we can put gold and silver on blockchain rails - we can use them in an internet age. This is what is happening and this is why the jig is up for the government scams.

Stack gold and silver until your hands bleed. 

 

Edited December 18, 2022 by sixgun

[Faiz]

16 minutes ago, Mcgrimes said:

Don’t forget that before gold, we also used salt and farm animals as a currency. 
An obvious demonstration for currency being a store of value is that you can sell a gold sovereign today, and buy it back again next week. There may be a price fluctuation either way, but there’s a clear store of value over the period, unless you disagree.

For whatever reason you guys hold gold, keep stacking! Just don’t expect to be using it as a currency anytime soon as it’s impractical to do so.

 As a real point of contention, do you see Bitcoin as a store of value?

I don’t believe we will be going back to gold as money. For myself, it’s a way of preserving net worth in an inflationary environment. I hold multiple currencies, gold silver and btc. I don’t believe any of them on their own is the solution, but combined there is a chance. 

[Anteater]

28 minutes ago, sixgun said:

1 oz of gold never alters in value it is always worth 1 oz of gold. Gold is money - if you value gold in terms of money then how can it alter in value?

The problem is that most of us want the ability to buy things we need such as food, fuel, land, housing, dentistry, etc rather than just exchange it for other gold. It's the buying power in terms of the things we want to buy that determines its value to the holder.

28 minutes ago, sixgun said:

Now we have the blockchain we can put gold and silver on blockchain rails - we can use them in an internet age.

I don't see how a blockchain helps here. A blockchain gives you a decentralised ledger which means there can be an agreed concept of "ownership" that doesn't rely on trusting any given party (such as a bank) to keep the records of. But as soon as you want to tie that to a physical asset (such as gold) then you have to trust someone to hold onto that physical asset and, on demand, give it to the owner of the token along with the token being destroyed. But then you're back to trusting a party which is subject to the same risk of fraud/default, pressure from governments, etc that a bank or vault is.

Edited December 18, 2022 by Anteater

[sixgun]

10 minutes ago, Anteater said:

I don't see how a blockchain helps here. A blockchain gives you a decentralised ledger which means there can be an agreed concept of "ownership" that doesn't rely on trusting any given party (such as a bank) to keep the records of. But as soon as you want to tie that to a physical asset (such as gold) then you have to trust someone to hold onto that physical asset and, on demand, give it to the owner of the token along with the token being destroyed. But then you're back to trusting a party which is subject to the same risk of fraud/default, pressure from governments, etc that a bank or vault is.

The blockchain is an accounting ledger - period. How you use that is up to you.
BTC is claimed to be decentralised - well 98% of BTC is owned by 2% of the holders - so it seems it is centralised in a small school of whales. 
Blockchain tokens can be asset backed. The tokens have value based on the asset behind them. The token is the proof of ownership. The tokens can be exchanged for fiat or exchanged natively for goods and services. Tokens can be sent across the world in seconds. You can in effect take the value of your asset across borders without taxes.

Now you will then say but that means it is a centralised system and someone has to hold the asset that backs the tokens. This is true. This is what the Kinesis system does. i was onboard with this before it even had its name Kinesis, before it even existed - i was sold on the idea. This is the future - this type of money system is what is going to happen whatever BTC devotees say and think. Kinesis is the bailee for the gold and silver. Your token is the proof of ownership. Metal is held in 13 vaults in different jurisdictions. Kinesis has a deal with the Indonesian government to use Kinesis through their post office. It is starting now. Shortly there will be an announcement from a Latin American country about it being a legal tender there. There are 10 countries in all (at the moment). They want rid of the USD and they want a stable gold backed money system. When countries are not subject to the dollar system they can thrive. 

You will say but i will stick with BTC - i will repeat something like 98% of BTC is held by 2% of the holders. A handful of holders have control of an electronic token backed by nothing. BTC will ultimately go to zero. When the Tether scam blows up it will hit BTC very hard. BTC is not money b/c it is not stable. For something to be money it must be a stable unit of exchange. 
Gold and silver are just not practical in the modern world - but they are when they are on blockchain rails and they can be spent with a Mastercard wherever the sign is displayed. 
The Kinesis system also allows people to spend BTC and other crypto on the card - or mixes of gold/silver/crypto in the same transaction.

The currency in your bank account does not belong to you - you loan it to the bank. There is bail-in legislation. Bank money is primarily held digitally.
Shares and other stock market bond investments are held on electronic registers by banks and financial organisations. 
There is trust in all of this. i just don't trust the government, the banks and i don't trust Bitcoin.

[codenamedtango]

24 minutes ago, sixgun said:

The blockchain is an accounting ledger - period. How you use that is up to you.
BTC is claimed to be decentralised - well 98% of BTC is owned by 2% of the holders - so it seems it is centralised in a small school of whales. 
Blockchain tokens can be asset backed. The tokens have value based on the asset behind them. The token is the proof of ownership. The tokens can be exchanged for fiat or exchanged natively for goods and services. Tokens can be sent across the world in seconds. You can in effect take the value of your asset across borders without taxes.

Now you will then say but that means it is a centralised system and someone has to hold the asset that backs the tokens. This is true. This is what the Kinesis system does. i was onboard with this before it even had its name Kinesis, before it even existed - i was sold on the idea. This is the future - this type of money system is what is going to happen whatever BTC devotees say and think. Kinesis is the bailee for the gold and silver. Your token is the proof of ownership. Metal is held in 13 vaults in different jurisdictions. Kinesis has a deal with the Indonesian government to use Kinesis through their post office. It is starting now. Shortly there will be an announcement from a Latin American country about it being a legal tender there. There are 10 countries in all (at the moment). They want rid of the USD and they want a stable gold backed money system. When countries are not subject to the dollar system they can thrive. 

You will say but i will stick with BTC - i will repeat something like 98% of BTC is held by 2% of the holders. A handful of holders have control of an electronic token backed by nothing. BTC will ultimately go to zero. When the Tether scam blows up it will hit BTC very hard. BTC is not money b/c it is not stable. For something to be money it must be a stable unit of exchange. 
Gold and silver are just not practical in the modern world - but they are when they are on blockchain rails and they can be spent with a Mastercard wherever the sign is displayed. 
The Kinesis system also allows people to spend BTC and other crypto on the card - or mixes of gold/silver/crypto in the same transaction.

The currency in your bank account does not belong to you - you loan it to the bank. There is bail-in legislation. Bank money is primarily held digitally.
Shares and other stock market bond investments are held on electronic registers by banks and financial organisations. 
There is trust in all of this. i just don't trust the government, the banks and i don't trust Bitcoin.

Is this the Kineses that you’re referring to?

 

https://kinesis.money/gold/

[sixgun]

2 minutes ago, codenamedtango said:

Is this the Kineses that you’re referring to?

https://kinesis.money/gold/

Yes.
https://kinesis.money/projects-indonesia/

[ZRPMs]

1 hour ago, Mcgrimes said:

Don’t forget that before gold, we also used salt and farm animals as a currency. 
An obvious demonstration for currency being a store of value is that you can sell a gold sovereign today, and buy it back again next week. There may be a price fluctuation either way, but there’s a clear store of value over the period, unless you disagree.

For whatever reason you guys hold gold, keep stacking! Just don’t expect to be using it as a currency anytime soon as it’s impractical to do so.

 As a real point of contention, do you see Bitcoin as a store of value?

In my humble opinion currency is only a measure for exchange. You can store the measure but its constantly being eroded by inflation. We need the measure for exchange. Mostly as its what is dictated to us by those that hold power over us (the government). Its what we have to pay our way in to them.

A store of value/ wealth I think has a subtle difference. Its some thing that we can use the measure of exchange at a specific point in time to obtain the ownership of. Then at a later date, when required it can be exchanged for what ever the current value would be in the measure of exchange. The difference in what we gave for it to what we receive is due to a, the erosion through inflation of the currency and b, the continued desirability of the item we obtained. We hope and have faith that our gold with retain is desirability due to its relative stability of supply per capita. It defiantly can not be printed in any quantity. and mining it exacts a cost. then the increase is relatively stable to increase in population and demand.

Not if we need our gold or silver or any of our PM's to become currency. We only need to be able to exchange it for what ever the currency is at the time. 20 years ago and ounce of gold was a little over £200, Its currently £1476.60. Even factoring in selling fee's. Its still performed ok. Are there better stores of wealth. Defiantly, But at what price level, availability, required knowledge level. 

I'm happy with my little collection. My only regret is, I didn't start sooner. However, I prioritised, Emergency funds for immediate use. Housing, food, clothing, travel. Then a start on mid to long term financial security with the goal of creating stability for myself and family. Preservation of wealth can really only come once you have it to preserve. After living expenses have been secured.  

[Anteater]

2 hours ago, sixgun said:

Now you will then say but that means it is a centralised system and someone has to hold the asset that backs the tokens. This is true. This is what the Kinesis system does. i was onboard with this before it even had its name Kinesis, before it even existed - i was sold on the idea. This is the future - this type of money system is what is going to happen whatever BTC devotees say and think. Kinesis is the bailee for the gold and silver. Your token is the proof of ownership. Metal is held in 13 vaults in different jurisdictions. Kinesis has a deal with the Indonesian government to use Kinesis through their post office. It is starting now. Shortly there will be an announcement from a Latin American country about it being a legal tender there. There are 10 countries in all (at the moment). They want rid of the USD and they want a stable gold backed money system. When countries are not subject to the dollar system they can thrive. 

[...]

The currency in your bank account does not belong to you - you loan it to the bank. There is bail-in legislation. Bank money is primarily held digitally.

Personally I'm not in BTC either (or any crypto, right now) - for now I see them all as speculative plays due to the volatility.

From a quick Google, and your post, it seems that Kinesis is Indonesian-backed and has divisibility down to 1/100000th of a gram. I'm pretty sure they don't have allocated amounts that small in a vault so my guess is that, just like a normal bank account, what you hold is actually a claim (on their side a liability) rather than specific physical gold. So me it looks like a gold-denominated bank account in Indonesia (with all the normal political risk that would entail) wrapped up in a crypto currency - but I don't see what benefit the crypto currency really adds to that. But happy to be proved wrong. (I'd love for there to be a more stable and reliable crypto-currency option.)

[sixgun]

21 minutes ago, Anteater said:

Personally I'm not in BTC either (or any crypto, right now) - for now I see them all as speculative plays due to the volatility.

From a quick Google, and your post, it seems that Kinesis is Indonesian-backed and has divisibility down to 1/100000th of a gram. I'm pretty sure they don't have allocated amounts that small in a vault so my guess is that, just like a normal bank account, what you hold is actually a claim (on their side a liability) rather than specific physical gold. So me it looks like a gold-denominated bank account in Indonesia (with all the normal political risk that would entail) wrapped up in a crypto currency - but I don't see what benefit the crypto currency really adds to that. But happy to be proved wrong. (I'd love for there to be a more stable and reliable crypto-currency option.)

Kinesis is not Indonesian backed. Kinesis is an off shoot of the Allocated Bullion Exchange. https://abx.com.

The ABX has been working with Indonesia for quite a few years now developing what they have and plan to do. Indonesia is the first but the CEO of Kinesis said in his most recent video interview with Arcadia Economics said that a deal with a Latin American country would be announced very soon. At a guess this will be Panama.

Kinesis does not own the gold or silver. They have no claim on it. They are bailee - that is custodian of the audited and insured vaulted metal. You have an account with wallets where your coins, crypto and cash are kept. If you want you can keep your coins in the Kinesis cold wallet or in a CoolbitX hard wallet. There are 'bank accounts' planned. The metal is distributed across 13 vaults in different jurisdictions. Yes your gold is spread across bars and vaults. This is NOT the usual unallocated setup you hear about with the bullion banks where you have lent the gold to them and they do as they like with it. Kinesis is bailee which is something very different. If at the end of the day you want to redeem your KAU for gold you can. The smallest bar is 100g - i know someone who has done it for gold and i know a number in the States who have done it for silver - 1000oz bars. Alternatively the Kinesis bullion store has recently opened - it is USA only at the moment. The products are minted by Kinesis at their minting facility in Turkey. https://kinesisbullion.com/

The Indonesian government have legally defined the gold in the Indonesian system as physical digital gold. 
The advantage of physical digital gold is you can spend, send and save it. If i want to send you a kilo of gold i will need to buy it - get hold of it - then have the headache and risk of sending it to you. With Kinesis i can buy the KAU and send them to your Kinesis KAU wallet in a matter of moments. If i want to spend my gold to get dog food and milk i can do it with my Kinesis debit card like i would with my NatWest bank account cash. If i chose to save my KAU my gold is vaulted for free and earns a KAU yield which is a share of the yield pool Kinesis collects from all the transactions. 

Edited December 18, 2022 by sixgun

[ArgentSmith]

3 hours ago, sixgun said:

well 98% of BTC is owned by 2% of the holders

Bitcoin is the blockchain and the above is a bizarre claim, even if you count exchanges as one holder its still miles off. Sounds like FUD.

[Roy]

@sixgun

£23/oz sounds good? Working out taxes etc. CA!)

[sixgun]

@Roy Well you have chosen to live in a Communist country.

[Roy]

CA- communist agenda? 😁

I'll wait for the gold bars, looks like Nadir Mint?

[sixgun]

36 minutes ago, ArgentSmith said:

Bitcoin is the blockchain and the above is a bizarre claim, even if you count exchanges as one holder its still miles off. Sounds like FUD.

Yes it is probably exchanges in the group of big holders - but there will be other entities - BTC is as far as i am aware NSA code. 
This came out in 2020. It was published in Bloomberg but Bloomberg is a subscription site so i post another link.

Bitcoin: Whales’ ownership concentration rises alongside prices – Flipside Crypto

https://www.fxstreet.com/cryptocurrencies/news/bitcoin-whales-ownership-concentration-rises-alongside-prices-flipside-crypto-202011281344

Bitcoin’s (BTC/USD) about 60% surge in November cannot be attributed to the massive accumulation by institutions and individuals, as the narrative emerges that the ownership of the most favorite digital asset continues to remain in the hands of a few whales, Bloomberg reports, citing data from the researcher Flipside Crypto.

The research firm notes that about 2% of the anonymous ownership accounts control 95% of Bitcoin holdings.

Edited December 18, 2022 by sixgun

[ArgentSmith]

1 minute ago, sixgun said:

Yes it is probably exchanges who in the group of big holders - but there will be other entities - BTC is as far as i am aware NSA code. 
This came out in 2020. It was published in Bloomberg but Bloomberg is a subscription site so i post another link.

Bitcoin: Whales’ ownership concentration rises alongside prices – Flipside Crypto

https://www.fxstreet.com/cryptocurrencies/news/bitcoin-whales-ownership-concentration-rises-alongside-prices-flipside-crypto-202011281344

Bitcoin’s (BTC/USD) about 60% surge in November cannot be attributed to the massive accumulation by institutions and individuals, as the narrative emerges that the ownership of the most favorite digital asset continues to remain in the hands of a few whales, Bloomberg reports, citing data from the researcher Flipside Crypto.

The research firm notes that about 2% of the anonymous ownership accounts control 95% of Bitcoin holdings.

But you couldn't get anymore establishment than Bloomberg 🤷‍♂️

https://insights.glassnode.com/bitcoin-supply-distribution/

[sixgun]

9 minutes ago, ArgentSmith said:

But you couldn't get anymore establishment than Bloomberg 🤷‍♂️

 

Agreed Bloomberg is part of the controlled media - who lie. 
i didn't get my information from Bloomberg, i think i remember who i did but i don't have a link for that, so i dug out the Bloomberg piece.
i recall V on RogueNews who would talk about BTC and the large deals he was arranging - then he went cool on BTC. i am not interested in BTC so i didn't take a lot of notice and so i am not 100% on what caused this. I think it was a combo of the BTC pumping through Tether and that Tether will blow up. Also the origins of BTC - that the intelligence agencies are connected - NSA code - CIA manipulation. i think it was the CIA put out a piece about a crypto as a way to make a fortune before BTC existed.  He appeared to be of the opinion that BTC would go to zero in the end. 
i expect nearly all the first generation crypto will disappear.