More Counterfeit Gold Sovereigns

[LawrenceChard]

I thought I had started a Topic for highlighting fake gold sovereigns, but seemingly not.

Here goes with a few more:

Obverse of a High Rim 1925 London Mint Sovereign

Reverse of a High Rim 1925 London Mint Sovereign

Niton Test Result for High Rim 1925 London Mint Sovereign.

First, the weight is too low for a minty looking sovereign, at 7.9366 grams.

The gold content is within normal range, as is the silver content.

Anyone who relied solely on an (expensive) Niton XRF tester would probably conclude this coin was genuine, but it would be  a rather stupid conclusion.

Using eyes and a brain, it is easy to see this coin looks too shiny, weakly struck, with some strange pock marks, and most of all, a slightly different appearance which is hard to pin down to any one single element. It is worth comparing this with a genuine 1925-L.

Next:

Obverse of a 1931 South Africa Mint Sovereign

Reverse of a 1931 South Africa Mint Sovereign

Niton Test Result for 1931 South Africa Mint Sovereign

Again, the weight is too low at 7.9008 grams.

The gold content is just within range, as is the silver content.

These two coins were probably produced at about the same place and time. I should have paid a little more attention, but the person we bought these from said that his father or uncle had bought them brand new about twenty years ago

The 1931 is even more weakly struck than the 1925, but shares some charaacteristics.

Its reverse rim looks too wide, and is flattened, at the lower left side.

 

Edited July 28, 2022 by LawrenceChard

[AuricGoldfinger]

If it has the right gold content and weighs about right then why would someone go to the trouble of faking these?

[paulmerton]

It would be interesting to see similar photos of a genuine one to compare with.

[paulmerton]

1 hour ago, AuricGoldfinger said:

If it has the right gold content and weighs about right then why would someone go to the trouble of faking these?

Some might regard a high-rimmed 1925 Sovereign as something special, as a genuine one would have been minted in 1949, 1950 or 1951.

[jultorsk]

Technically the auctioneer is not at fault here, but the description of "Middle Eastern Gold Exchange Strike" sounds like a load of creative writing. 🤔 Sold for GBP425 incl premium, + post.

 

[ArgentSmith]

7 hours ago, AuricGoldfinger said:

If it has the right gold content and weighs about right then why would someone go to the trouble of faking these?

"historic premiums" -  Lawrence Chard

[papi1980]

@LawrenceChard appreciate for the great photos. The more I watch fake sovereign the more I start to see the differences

I was wondering if the ‘fake sovereigns’ have the correct serrations?

My hypothesis is that whoever produced these did not bother, or had no technology to count the serrations if they are different from the original (hence the number of serrations could be a quantitative method for distinguishing fakes). Might be entirely wrong here  

[CollectForFun]

11 hours ago, AuricGoldfinger said:

If it has the right gold content and weighs about right then why would someone go to the trouble of faking these?

I recommend this excellent reading on this topic: http://goldsovereigns.co.uk/sovereignfakesin20thcentury.html

Specifically to your question:

Quote

London’s Evening Standard reported in 1952 that although the nominal value of the sovereign was one pound or twenty shillings, it contained £2-18 shillings of gold but sold on the continental markets from between £4 and £10.

This situation was to be exploited by a number of counterfeiters in the late 1940’s and the 1950’s. They used gold in their fake coins but were still able to make a handsome profit.

 

[Britannia47]

11 hours ago, paulmerton said:

It would be interesting to see similar photos of a genuine one to compare with.

Here we go then.....😊!

 

[LawrenceChard]

11 hours ago, AuricGoldfinger said:

If it has the right gold content and weighs about right then why would someone go to the trouble of faking these?

 I get asked the same question at least once a week, including here on TSF.

I have published a number of pages explaining.

This is probably the oldest of these pages, probably written before 2000, but still relevant:

https://24carat.co.uk/frame.php?url=counterfeitcoins.html

Also:

https://goldsovereigns.co.uk/sovereignfakesin20thcentury.html

This page is not as good, and was ported over from one of our Heritage Sites:

https://www.chards.co.uk/blog/fakes-forgeries-and-counterfeit-gold-coins-and-sovereigns/167

Another oldie, but still good:

https://24carat.co.uk/frame.php?url=fakes1.html

You could let me know what you think, and whether they leave anything unexplained.

😎

 

[LawrenceChard]

7 hours ago, jultorsk said:

Technically the auctioneer is not at fault here, but the description of "Middle Eastern Gold Exchange Strike" sounds like a load of creative writing. 🤔 Sold for GBP425 incl premium, + post.

 

I was going to ask for a link to the lot, but I found it:

https://katzauction.com/lot/156854

Italská 834/34 120 00 Prague, Czechia, CZ Branch

124 Finchley Rd, London NW3 5JS, UK, Headquarters

 

I have a few other questions:

Who in their right mind would buy a fake sovereign at that price, when they could buy a genuine one for much less?

Am I in the wrong business?

😎

[LawrenceChard]

11 hours ago, paulmerton said:

It would be interesting to see similar photos of a genuine one to compare with.

There probably are some on our Chards site, and also on goldsovereigns.co.uk

I notice another TSF member has already posted one.

Google Image search will find plenty for you.

I could have added some genuine pics, but it takes some time and work to locate them, partly because we have so many.

I could have asked our photographer to knock out some side by side ones, but they may have needed to be smaller, it does take time, and we already keep him fully occupied, with a permanent backlog.

😎

[LawrenceChard]

10 hours ago, paulmerton said:

Some might regard a high-rimmed 1925 Sovereign as something special, as a genuine one would have been minted in 1949, 1950 or 1951.

Some might, but they are the ones which turn up all the time, whereas low rim originals are rare.

The high rim ones are genuine, produced by the Royal Mint between 1949 and 1951, and are genuine actual official restrikes, as opposed to the euphemistic restrikes you can find on ebay and almost everwhere else.

If any of this is not clear, have a look at:

https://24carat.co.uk/frame.php?url=restrikes.html

https://www.chards.co.uk/blog/restrike-gold-sovereigns-and-other-coins/168

https://goldsovereigns.co.uk/1828restrikesovereigns.html

https://goldsovereigns.co.uk/restrikes.html

😎

[LawrenceChard]

3 hours ago, papi1980 said:

@LawrenceChard appreciate for the great photos. The more I watch fake sovereign the more I start to see the differences

I was wondering if the ‘fake sovereigns’ have the correct serrations?

My hypothesis is that whoever produced these did not bother, or had no technology to count the serrations if they are different from the original (hence the number of serrations could be a quantitative method for distinguishing fakes). Might be entirely wrong here  

I forgot to ask Doug to do serration counts, and he must have been busy.

Would you mind counting them, and letting us know the answer?

😎

[dicker]

The neck area and torso of St G on the 1925 are particularly badly executed.

Other dead give always are the read kneecaps of the horse and bits around the bottom of the dragon.

Many thanks for posting these as usual!

 

 

[LawrenceChard]

1 hour ago, dicker said:

The neck area and torso of St G on the 1925 are particularly badly executed. Other dead give always are the read kneecaps of the horse and bits around the bottom of the dragon.

 

I must say I didn't look closely at the dragon's bottom!

😎

[GoldDabbler]

I read a few pages. Clear as mud  I'm still none the wiser (I did skim) If a sov is the right size and weight how can it be fake? I thought only tungsten has the right density compared to gold.  Any (simple) info appreciated.

[SovereignBishop]

6 hours ago, CollectForFun said:

I recommend this excellent reading on this topic: http://goldsovereigns.co.uk/sovereignfakesin20thcentury.html

Specifically to your question:

 

Interesting read. 

[dicker]

54 minutes ago, GoldDabbler said:

I read a few pages. Clear as mud  I'm still none the wiser (I did skim) If a sov is the right size and weight how can it be fake? I thought only tungsten has the right density compared to gold.  Any (simple) info appreciated.

Fakes are made of Gold…just not by the RM or a branch mint.

 

[LawrenceChard]

1 hour ago, GoldDabbler said:

I read a few pages. Clear as mud  I'm still none the wiser (I did skim) If a sov is the right size and weight how can it be fake? I thought only tungsten has the right density compared to gold.  Any (simple) info appreciated.

Read a few more pages, all will be revealed!

😎

[LawrenceChard]

1 hour ago, GoldDabbler said:

I'm still none the wiser 

Perhaps not, but you are much better informed!

😎

[GoldDabbler]

1 hour ago, dicker said:

Fakes are made of Gold…just not by the RM or a branch mint.

 

So I may end up with a fake sovereign baring the exact size, weight and composition of a gen sov? I should have stuck to stamp collecting.  

1 hour ago, LawrenceChard said:

Read a few more pages, all will be revealed!

😎

I'm on my travel laptop atm. 11" screen. Five minutes I go myopic. 

1 hour ago, LawrenceChard said:

Perhaps not, but you are much better informed!

😎

I am? I mean, I am! Thanks. I think.  

Edited May 18, 2022 by GoldDabbler

[dicker]

In my experience, stamp collecting has a significantly bigger problem with counterfeits than collecting Sovereigns!

Edited May 18, 2022 by dicker

[GoldDabbler]

3 minutes ago, dicker said:

In my experience, stamp collecting has a significantly bigger problem with counterfeits than collecting Sovereigns!

My stamp collection consisted of a bag of 1000 stamps for a quid. I stuck them in my album. Proud. I was 7.

Looks like it's Costco again. For all its faults at least I won't be sold a Sexton Blake  

[dicker]

99.9 percent of the time a solid dealer or the forum is the way to go for me.  I have seen a couple of suspect Sovs and told the seller one removed from sale.

Whatever you chose all the best to you

Dicker