Am I right to ask refund of high value coins due to inaccurate description??

[Stuntman]

My two cents:

1. That Chards link with the difference in grades is pretty accurate IMO - nice work

2. The 1880 sovereign in the Chards link graded aVF/VF is pretty accurate IMO according to the old-skool UK grading system. I think it would get an EF45/XF45 grade on the Sheldon scale, maybe slightly higher if the grader valued the reverse higher than the obverse.

And in answer to the original question - I think you may have to chalk this one up to experience.  I certainly wouldn't rely on a dealer's subjective grading assessment in the way you are perhaps looking to do.  I would evaluate the coin and compare it to the price being asked, and then decide whether I thought that was worth paying.   The dealer is offering to sell you a raw coin, not one that has already been third-party-graded.  

[lxy70713]

37 minutes ago, Stuntman said:

My two cents:

1. That Chards link with the difference in grades is pretty accurate IMO - nice work

2. The 1880 sovereign in the Chards link graded aVF/VF is pretty accurate IMO according to the old-skool UK grading system. I think it would get an EF45/XF45 grade on the Sheldon scale, maybe slightly higher if the grader valued the reverse higher than the obverse.

And in answer to the original question - I think you may have to chalk this one up to experience.  I certainly wouldn't rely on a dealer's subjective grading assessment in the way you are perhaps looking to do.  I would evaluate the coin and compare it to the price being asked, and then decide whether I thought that was worth paying.   The dealer is offering to sell you a raw coin, not one that has already been third-party-graded.  

I agree with you chards is accurate about the 1880 grade and I am aware of the aVF - VF is based on English grading systems
Just like when I was told by the dealer a coin is in Unc condition I would naturally linked to the same grading system. Which is equivalent to US grade MS62 - MS63.

I do not see why it is difficult to agree on something is black and white. 
😢

[lxy70713]

1 hour ago, LawrenceChard said:

1)

Providing it is the actual coin shown in the photos, then yes, but we at Chards, do try to grade conservatively, whereas many / most dealers exaggerate their grades.

2)

We show two tables on that page, the upper one is an NGC table which says 

Brilliant Uncirculated

60-70

🙂

1). I do value chards is a reputable coin dealer. Speaking of most dealers exaggerate their grades as you mentioned, I feel it is very frustrating for collectors and buyers.

As we do see there is good ££margin between AU58 EF and MS62 Unc Numismatic coin. It is pretty lame to say coin grade is subjective. 
If we cannot rely on the grades from NGC and PCGS, can we rely on the grades from most of those dealers as mentioned above?

 

[lxy70713]

1 hour ago, Seasider said:

1) I think the answer you are looking for is NO.  Based on your tables the VF aVF coin is equivalent to AU50 or EF45

2) The bottom table says Brilliant Uncirculated is equivalent to MS65-66 while MS60 would be AU or gEF in English

It just goes to show that the Americans cannot speak the Queen's English.

Just like we call ground floor in the UK and American call it 1st floor. 
Any reputable dealer cannot say Unc coin is American grade MS60. And because of the grader had a bad day hence you get AU58.

The equivalence is clearly written on chards website and many other reliable platform. 

 

[SilverJacks]

I find it interesting that before the days of 3rd party graders, there would be no dispute like this. As stated by others, you'd buy the coin based on your own judgement. But are those days gone?

3rd party graders have no official authority to declare the condition of a coin, but they do have undeniable influence over a coins value. It's quite obvious that NGC/PCGS set the standards when it comes to grading a coin.

Collectible coins are goods. Their value will depend on their condition and their sale will come under a description. As far as I know, the market is covered only by The Consumer Rights Act 2015.

I found this in Chapter 2 Goods, 11) Goods to be as described - https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/section/11/enacted - It quite clearly states that the description is part of the contract and considering the value of goods depends on the condition, it is vital that the goods are as described. I don't see any room for subjective argument in the legislation. Whatever grading scale you use (Uncirculated or equivalent Sheldon scale) to describe the coin, it has to be of some kind of condition to match. If NGC declare it a lesser grade than described and the buyer suggests a second opinion could be had with PCGS, I don't see any more that can be done to determine the condition.

That said, I also found this in regard to time limits, 22) Time limits for short-term right to reject - https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/section/22/enacted - I don't know if that is applicable to this scenario. In other provisions, it states that a consumer can claim damages where there is no right to receive a refund. I suspect that since it takes months to establish a coins grade, and therefore condition, that a claim would not be subject to the 30 day time limit, not that I hold the facts.

It appears to me that there are grounds for a claim in court. It would be fascinating to see if a precedent were set in a UK court case regarding the dispute of a coins condition. Although it is obviously best for all concerned that an amicable agreement is reached.

[CollectForFun]

By the way, why do we think that dealer describing the coin as "uncirculated" is binding for anything? Is there even any legal definition of this term when used for the purpose of assessing condition of a coin? If the dealer truly believed that the coin was uncirculated, are they to blame if someone else believes the condition is different?

That's what is meant by grading being subjective - not that it is entirely arbitrary, but that it is to some extent flexible, especially in borderline cases. Grades are of course meant to be precise, but as they are not based on any exactly measurable parametres, they are inevitably subjective... And I don't think NGC or PCGS should be seen as the ultimate authority to determine the grade. Heck, many times they can't even correctly identify the coin type or spot a counterfeit coin...! 

[Stuntman]

One person's VF is another person's Unc when it comes to a human being offering an opinion about the grade of a coin.  Particularly if you happen to be selling the coin or buying the coin.

That's why the TPG companies serve a purpose for some - they will grade a coin according to their own set of criteria, which will be objectively written down, but subjectively applied in each case.  Hence why some people may think a coin is under or over graded and then act on the potential buying or selling opportunity.

Grading is like dating.  You might describe yourself, or your spouse, as 'attractive' (I won't go as far as uncirculated...) but everyone's spouse appears 'attractive' after a few pints... 😉

[lxy70713]

Here are the images of 1820 open 2, It was sold to me as Unc condition.
 

 

[lxy70713]

10 hours ago, CollectForFun said:

By the way, why do we think that dealer describing the coin as "uncirculated" is binding for anything? Is there even any legal definition of this term when used for the purpose of assessing condition of a coin? If the dealer truly believed that the coin was uncirculated, are they to blame if someone else believes the condition is different?

That's what is meant by grading being subjective - not that it is entirely arbitrary, but that it is to some extent flexible, especially in borderline cases. Grades are of course meant to be precise, but as they are not based on any exactly measurable parametres, they are inevitably subjective... And I don't think NGC or PCGS should be seen as the ultimate authority to determine the grade. Heck, many times they can't even correctly identify the coin type or spot a counterfeit coin...! 

We are all humans, we make mistakes. So does NGC and PCGS.

Supply and demand end of the day, If market does not need NGC and PCGS, they will be gone

[sovereignsteve]

I don't see how that can achieve higher than EF58 especially with the scratches. Someone might well find some photos of similar coins graded higher but you can always find some you scratch your head about.😁

[ArgentSmith]

Estate agent sells me house with "beautiful view" I agree view is beautiful. Private 3rd party I employ to assess view describes it as pleasant but not beautiful.

Where do I stand?

[SilverJacks]

Just now, ArgentSmith said:

Where do I stand?

On a vantage point overlooking a view of disputed quality?

[ArgentSmith]

I used to think it was beautiful but now I can't bear looking at it. House was expensive 😠

[SilverJacks]

1 minute ago, ArgentSmith said:

I used to think it was beautiful but now I can't bear looking at it. House was expensive 😠

If you'd hired the surveyor before purchase, they might have saved you a few quid.

[SilverJacks]

1 minute ago, SilverJacks said:

If you'd hired the surveyor before purchase, they might have saved you a few quid.

I guess that means you should buy a slabbed house

[richatthecroft]

13 minutes ago, sovereignsteve said:

I don't see how that can achieve higher than EF58 especially with the scratches. Someone might well find some photos of similar coins graded higher but you can always find some you scratch your head about.😁

Here’s my 1817 to compare- it’s NGC graded MS62- it’s just back from NGC after re- holdering, as the slab was scratched.

[ArgentSmith]

1 minute ago, SilverJacks said:

If you'd hired the surveyor before purchase, they might have saved you a few quid.

pfft... estate agent should have known the view wasn't as described

1 minute ago, SilverJacks said:

I guess that means you should buy a slabbed house

Yeah but I wouldn't be moaning if Id done that!!

[lxy70713]

4 minutes ago, richatthecroft said:

Here’s my 1817 to compare- it’s NGC graded MS62- it’s just back from NGC after re- holdering, as the slab was scratched.

Thanks Richard, Looks like proof to me

[richatthecroft]

Just now, lxy70713 said:

Thanks Richard, Looks like proof to me

I wish it was! - no it’s just the currency issue. 

[sovereignsteve]

That's fabulous Richard

[lxy70713]

2 minutes ago, richatthecroft said:

I wish it was! - no it’s just the currency issue. 

It is very eye appeal. I hope they give you PL designation 😃

[Arganto]

1 hour ago, lxy70713 said:

Here are the images of 1820 open 2, It was sold to me as Unc condition.
 

 

Any decent George III coin is a cool thing to have, but if this example is uncirculated then every sov I had before the boat accident was mint state... Makes me think about hiring scuba gear!

[Stuntman]

Yes.  It's a very nice coin, but anyone with a working pair of eyes and some common sense would know that it would not grade as Uncirculated or get an MS grade from a TPG.

Rich's coin, on the other hand, is utterly lovely - as I have said on several occasions when he has posted it previously!  Very envious of that one 😄

[richatthecroft]

1 hour ago, lxy70713 said:

It is very eye appeal. I hope they give you PL designation 😃

I bought the Sovereign just over a year ago, it was already graded and it’s designated plain old MS.   I only sent it back to NGC as the holder was scratched and the plastic looked somewhat opaque.

@lxy70713 In terms of your original question, personally, I think redress with the dealer you bought it from has long since passed.  If it had returned from NGC ungraded and described as a counterfeit than yes, but 6 months on, I think not.  You also stated earlier on in the thread that you were happy with the coins you bought on receipt of them. 

Like others have said here, I believe that attributing a grade to a coin is subjective, and if I hadn’t disclosed what grade my 1817 and asked for opinions, then there would be many different responses, you commented that you thought it was Prooflike. it isn’t when you see it in hand.

However, in terms of third party grading, I think the appraisal process is tightened up somewhat, as the person grading the coin has no financial or emotional attachment to the coin and I believe that three people are involved in the grade that eventually gets assigned.

Do I think grading by NGC/ PCGS is a panacea?  No, but it’s certainly more objective, in my opinion- but it’s not infallible.

I recently got a ‘details’ designation on an early Sovereign which I disagree with, I also received a Cameo designation on a 1911 Proof Half Sovereign that I think was extremely harsh, but in my experience, the grading companies do get the grades assigned reasonably consistent.

@lxy70713 you also said earlier in the thread that you would find it difficult to be able to appraise older and historic coins- I find this difficult too, and buying pre- graded is the way to go and takes the doubt away somewhat.

If I save up and I am ready to buy a coin out of my comfort zone, I tend to use one particularly dealer that I have dealt with on many occasions, he knows what quality I like and want, and I can trust his verbal appraisal of what I’m interested in buying with a photo or two- he usually sends me the coin on approval- ‘pay if you like it’ or ‘return it’.

I absolutely know that when I’m buying a coin that’s not an everyday coin for me, and out my comfort zone  I will pay a small percentage more for my coins from this particular dealer- but I haven’t been let down with what I have bought from him.

By the way, I bought my 1817 from the same dealer, and at the time he had a raw example for around the same money as the MS62, and he was keen for me to buy the raw example- I bought the pre- graded as I liked the eye appeal- but he thought the raw one was a far better grade! 

Grading is subjective.

As a parting shot- I bought this 1935 Proof Crown with Raised Edge Lettering from my ‘go to’ dealer- it’s just come back from NGC- what grade do people think it got?

Bet there’s quite a spread of numbers and designations.

 

Edited March 17, 2022 by richatthecroft

[Stuntman]

PF65 or maybe 66?

It's a very nice coin and probably Practically As Struck, but perhaps the grader might mark it down for the die polishing lines?

I'd be interested to know who your go-to dealer is: PM me please if you're willing to share, no worries if not!