Am I right to ask refund of high value coins due to inaccurate description??

[paulmerton]

One positive I've only just realised is that - old product or new - coin dealers are probably the only people who don't try to shirk their responsibilities under the Consumer Rights Act by erroneously claiming "nothing to do with us, you'll have to return it to the manufacturer"  

[LawrenceChard]

16 hours ago, lxy70713 said:

But, I would like to see people's thoughts on the inaccurate descripion from the dealer.

The best, possibly only, way to get this would be to show the dealer's photos, and descriptions, and your own / slabbers photos.

It is difficult if not impossible for people to judge what they cannot see.

[lxy70713]

10 hours ago, sovereignsteve said:

There are a few things here worthy of note.

Most dealers, even reputable ones, will at some time "overgrade" coins they are selling. The really good, experienced ones should be able to get these things right almost all the time. Many less experienced, knowledgeable and perhaps less trustworthy ones will almost always get it wrong.

Too many sellers of all types are prone to adding an "uncirculated" label to any coin that looks nice and shiny!

There is one dealer not far from me that prides themselves in erring on the safe side with coins they have for sale😉. In my experience I would have to say I agree but would add a rider to that; I haven't tested this out for a good few years.😄

The OP is in the UK therefore we can assume the dealer they purchased from will be also. Therefore it is a good assumption they are using the UK grading system which is generally less sensitive than the US Sheldon system used by NGC and PCGS.

US grade 58 is generally regarded as the start of the equivalent EF UK grade, which approximates to 58 - 61. A true uncirculated UK graded coin should therefore achieve at least a 62 at the 2 major US graders.

The problem is there isn't an official conversion table for the UK and US grading systems. Also the US graders place more emphasis on the fields and eye appeal than does the UK system.

As to the legality of the OP's situation. I am no expert but I would guess if a coin was described inaccurately and especially in a way to overstate it's condition, this would be illegal in the eyes of consumer law. I think it would be deemed irrelevant that the buyer had a chance to inspect the goods beforehand as they wouldn't be expected to have the same level of expertise in these matters as the dealer.

Whether there is any time limit on claiming a refund, I wouldn't know the exact figure but in the case of "fit for purpose", this would be many months, possibly 6 or 12. In the case of fraudulent description, it would probably be more.

I would guess the problem would be proving the case. As it would likely be a civil matter, the test would be "on the balance of probabilities". Maybe getting several reputable dealers to disagree with the sellers grading description would be enough? I doubt the evidence of the NGC grade achieved would be sufficient in itself, in the absence of a direct conversion table.

As is it increasingly common these days for top coins to be graded at NGC or PCGS, I would be surprised if a reputable dealer wouldn't take notice of these grades. I would imagine they would be mindful of how they would grade with TPGs when describing their coins for sale. Therefore I think the catchall excuse of "grading is subjective" is pretty lame.

As to whether the OP should request a refund, this would depend on the assessment of the price paid and what the current value would be at the achieved NGC grade. Also how difficult it would be to replace the coins at that price in the current market.

 

 

13 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

 

As other members have said, you have waited / delayed a long time before wanting to return them.

You did not originally state whether these were "numismatic" coins as opposed to bullion coins, but there was an implication of the former.

Most dealers allow returns within a reasonable time period, and UK law also gives you consumer rights in "distance" sales.

"Sales of this kind are known as 'distance selling'. You must offer a refund to customers if they've told you within 14 days of receiving their goods that they want to cancel. They have another 14 days to return the goods once they've told you."

So, you are well out of time.

You state you saw clear photos, so you were able to see the condition of the coins before you ordered them, and also to be able to compare the coins with the photos once you received them.

It is best to learn something about coins (or anything else for that matter), before you commit money to them.

You also say "many people are not a big fan of these company", but you omit to state which company. If you name them, you are more likely to get feedback.

It does sound as though the dealer exaggerated the grades, but this is very common, and not just with coins. As you have realised, grading is subjective.

You could always ask the dealer for a refund, but guess you will not have much success.

Sadly, you need to put this down to experience. It is also unfortunate that you may have been put off numismatics by this.

To add some perspective, we often get offered "collections", mainly of modern issues, where people have spent 6 figure amounts on coins from coin marketing companies, before they have realised that they were making a bad investment / getting ripped off. It is frustrating for us to be too late to try to help.

 

Hi Lawrence,

Thanks for your input.

Good to see from your perspective. It is indeed a lesson learned.

Here is my thoughts, we have bullion dealers as well as Numismatic dealers.

With Numismatic coins, the price is irrevelant to the spot price no matter it is silver or gold. Hence the question is what are we paying for？

To me,  a piece of history as well as the apprearance (grade) of the coin. I believe I paid the right market price for both coins at the time, hence I am expecting a professional body (NGC) to prove it.

(I know some people against the grading company, we could argue another time). But the results is not satisfying.

We could argue a MS62 deserve to be MS63, But from AU58 -MS62? Is it really subjective?  

 

 

Edited March 16, 2022 by lxy70713

[lxy70713]

11 minutes ago, LawrenceChard said:

The best, possibly only, way to get this would be to show the dealer's photos, and descriptions, and your own / slabbers photos.

It is difficult if not impossible for people to judge what they cannot see.

I think it is the best way. But at this stage I still like to protect the dealer as I am still in contact with him.

 

[lxy70713]

13 hours ago, Pete said:

From what I have read on this topic  - 
Firstly the cost of some coins can have very little to do with their condition but more their rarity.
Of course the same coin in higher grades will cost even more.
Just because a coin is uncirculated does not infer it will grade high - as perhaps expected.
If you purchased based on good quality photographs then obtaining a lower grade than expected is disappointing for sure but not the fault of the dealer who was not selling a graded coin - or have I misunderstood ?

Hi Pete,

I bought the coins based on clear photos with description. I called seller before I purchase and he confirmed both coins are in Unc condition.

I am ok with the coin that I received at the time. Otherwise, I would ask for a refund straight away.

 

[lxy70713]

13 hours ago, SilverJacks said:

It's unfortunate that the submission process takes so long these days. In regard to the grade, I think the onus is still on the buyer to decide whether they agree with the description before submitting them for grading. Dealers are also susceptible to disappointment since there's an inherent risk with raw coins. 

However, supposing you graded a coin that came back not genuine, that imo would be very much different and I would expect a no quibble refund from a reputable dealer.

I wonder though, what if a coin is described as problem free and then comes back as a details grade. Is there ground for complaint there? Would describing a coin as "uncirculated" imply that it is problem free?

Maybe creating a dialogue with the dealer along the lines of "Is this problem free?" or more to the point of the OP, "if this comes back lower grade than expected, would you offer a part refund to match the grade?" I'd expect many dealers wouldn't entertain such an agreement. But I also think there are some that would do so, depending on circumstances and relationship between buyer & seller. I don't see it as unreasonable to ask in advance.

I think when it comes to Numismatic coins from a reputable dealer. 'uncirculated' should means problem free. 

I did ask for return of the coins he said will get back to me. Ideally I would like a full refund, maybe it is not realistic. Let's see what he has to say

 

 

[Happypanda88]

I was intrigue about the market value of a Gothic Crown so prompted me to do a little research. On the London Coins website, the last good specimen  sold at auction for £6,500. 

https://www.londoncoins.co.uk/?page=Pastresults&searchterm=Gothic+Crown+1847&category=9&searchtype=1

 

The Royal Mint has one advertised for £9,950 though "awaiting stock".  One wonders where RM source these coins from ! 

You could even give them a call and see if RM would be interested in your coin for £6K !! 😁

https://www.royalmint.com/our-coins/ranges/historic-coins/historic-crowns/victoria-gothic-crown-1847/

[dikefalos]

I can't see a reason, to return the coins, or the dealer to accept a return. Especially not, because of a unfortunate grading by another company. He described as UNC, you accepted these coins like that, and as you wrote, you was happy when you got the coins. You are unhappy with the grading, that's not the dealers problem at all. He described the coins, you had time to watch them, and you was happy. As someone mentioned before, go for allready graded coins. Everything else is a gamble. You can win, you can loose, only NGC/PCGS knows... 

If you are unhappy with the grading, you can send them at your cost for a regrade, or to another grading company for a regrade. 

[dikefalos]

4 minutes ago, lxy70713 said:

I think when it comes to Numismatic coins from a reputable dealer. 'uncirculated' should means problem free. 

I did ask for return of the coins he said will get back to me. Ideally I would like a full refund, maybe it is not realistic. Let's see what he has to say

 

 

For me it's absolute unrealistic. You accepted these coins like half a year ago, they looked fine to you. As i said, you are unhappy with the grading result, not the coin. And now you want to return the coins, because you don't like the grading? Sounds really unfair to me. It's your gamble. You could have left them ungraded and would allways hold a UNC coin. But you wanted to raise the value and it didn't worked out. What exactly did the dealer wrong, that he has to accept a return after six months, because you didn't reached your expectations with your gamble?

[lxy70713]

7 minutes ago, Happypanda88 said:

I was intrigue about the market value of a Gothic Crown so prompted me to do a little research. On the London Coins website, the last good specimen  sold at auction for £6,500. 

https://www.londoncoins.co.uk/?page=Pastresults&searchterm=Gothic+Crown+1847&category=9&searchtype=1

 

The Royal Mint has one advertised for £9,950 though "awaiting stock".  One wonders where RM source these coins from ! 

You could even give them a call and see if RM would be interested in your coin for £6K !! 😁

https://www.royalmint.com/our-coins/ranges/historic-coins/historic-crowns/victoria-gothic-crown-1847/

Speak to the devil. I just had an email from the dealer with another overprice RM link and trying to imply that I actually had a good deal from him😅

[paulmerton]

2 minutes ago, dikefalos said:

I can't see a reason, to return the coins, or the dealer to accept a return. Especially not, because of a unfortunate grading by another company. He described as UNC, you accepted these coins like that, and as you wrote, you was happy when you got the coins. You are unhappy with the grading, that's not the dealers problem at all. He described the coins, you had time to watch them, and you was happy.

I think this is completely wrong for the reasons I gave on the previous page (in the UK at least, I don't know German law). From what I've read, it seems there is evidence of a breach of contract in this case regardless of whether the buyer was previously happy.

If the buyer really wants to ensure a refund, they would be in an even better position if they paid by credit card (did you @lxy70713?) as the card issuer can instead be held liable for the breach of contract, and if they don't accept the claim either (highly likely, as they employ people to say no) then you can refer it to the Financial Ombudsman - which essentially forces the ultimate decision to be made by a "reasonable" person.

 

[lxy70713]

2 minutes ago, dikefalos said:

For me it's absolute unrealistic. You accepted these coins like half a year ago, they looked fine to you. As i said, you are unhappy with the grading result, not the coin. And now you want to return the coins, because you don't like the grading? Sounds really unfair to me. It's your gamble. You could have left them ungraded and would allways hold a UNC coin. But you wanted to raise the value and it didn't worked out. What exactly did the dealer wrong, that he has to accept a return after six months, because you didn't reached your expectations with your gamble?

Thanks for your input.

I think you are imply buying from a reputable dealer is a gamble.

Why is it a gamble? the grading result is to tell if the coin is in the same condition as the seller described. 😅

 

[lxy70713]

4 minutes ago, paulmerton said:

I think this is completely wrong for the reasons I gave on the previous page (in the UK at least, I don't know German law). From what I've read, it seems there is evidence of a breach of contract in this case regardless of whether the buyer was previously happy.

If the buyer really wants to ensure a refund, they would be in an even better position if they paid by credit card (did you @lxy70713?) as the card issuer can instead be held liable for the breach of contract, and if they don't accept the claim either (highly likely, as they employ people to say no) then you can refer it to the Financial Ombudsman - which essentially forces the ultimate decision to be made by a "reasonable" person.

 

I paid by BT hence not entilted to the credit card guarantee. Personally, I would like to resolve it in a good way. I know it has been a long time, but the fact is fact, I will see what comments the dealer has regarding the grade. Thanks for the help.

[lxy70713]

11 hours ago, sovereignsteve said:

There are a few things here worthy of note.

Most dealers, even reputable ones, will at some time "overgrade" coins they are selling. The really good, experienced ones should be able to get these things right almost all the time. Many less experienced, knowledgeable and perhaps less trustworthy ones will almost always get it wrong.

Too many sellers of all types are prone to adding an "uncirculated" label to any coin that looks nice and shiny!

There is one dealer not far from me that prides themselves in erring on the safe side with coins they have for sale😉. In my experience I would have to say I agree but would add a rider to that; I haven't tested this out for a good few years.😄

The OP is in the UK therefore we can assume the dealer they purchased from will be also. Therefore it is a good assumption they are using the UK grading system which is generally less sensitive than the US Sheldon system used by NGC and PCGS.

US grade 58 is generally regarded as the start of the equivalent EF UK grade, which approximates to 58 - 61. A true uncirculated UK graded coin should therefore achieve at least a 62 at the 2 major US graders.

The problem is there isn't an official conversion table for the UK and US grading systems. Also the US graders place more emphasis on the fields and eye appeal than does the UK system.

As to the legality of the OP's situation. I am no expert but I would guess if a coin was described inaccurately and especially in a way to overstate it's condition, this would be illegal in the eyes of consumer law. I think it would be deemed irrelevant that the buyer had a chance to inspect the goods beforehand as they wouldn't be expected to have the same level of expertise in these matters as the dealer.

Whether there is any time limit on claiming a refund, I wouldn't know the exact figure but in the case of "fit for purpose", this would be many months, possibly 6 or 12. In the case of fraudulent description, it would probably be more.

I would guess the problem would be proving the case. As it would likely be a civil matter, the test would be "on the balance of probabilities". Maybe getting several reputable dealers to disagree with the sellers grading description would be enough? I doubt the evidence of the NGC grade achieved would be sufficient in itself, in the absence of a direct conversion table.

As is it increasingly common these days for top coins to be graded at NGC or PCGS, I would be surprised if a reputable dealer wouldn't take notice of these grades. I would imagine they would be mindful of how they would grade with TPGs when describing their coins for sale. Therefore I think the catchall excuse of "grading is subjective" is pretty lame.

As to whether the OP should request a refund, this would depend on the assessment of the price paid and what the current value would be at the achieved NGC grade. Also how difficult it would be to replace the coins at that price in the current market.

 

Hi Steve,

Thanks for your input.

I agree with you the US grading systems is the different version of UK grading systems.

When we say a coin in Ms62 or Ms63 which means Unc condition in UK grading systems. There is no big arguement about it. 

People who said they do not see the reason why I should ask for refund is because I was happy at the time and it has been 6 months.

But they missed very important part I will not ask for advice today if both coins are actually in Unc condition.

It is indeed difficult work out the difference in ££ betwen EF and Unc, hence I propose to send coins back to him, but apparently it is not easy. 

[paulmerton]

Just now, lxy70713 said:

I paid by BT hence not entilted to the credit card guarantee. Personally, I would like to resolve it in a good way. I know it has been a long time, but the fact is fact, I will see what comments the dealer has regarding the grade. Thanks for the help.

I think a reasonable way forward would be to propose having it graded again, and for the seller to agree to refund you in full (plus the cost of the grading) if it still falls below 60.

If they don't think that's reasonable or still don't want to refund you, then in the worst case I think you should be able to get the money back by making a money claim online (moneyclaim.gov.uk) if you have sufficient evidence of a breach of contract under the Consumer Rights Act 2015. I have never tried this and this is not legal advice etc etc.

Hopefully they will just see that it would be better to take the coins back without any further hassle, and to enjoy your future custom.

[ArgentSmith]

I wonder how many people contact dealers offering to square up 6 months later if a coin comes back from grading higher than expected?

[SilverJacks]

11 hours ago, sovereignsteve said:

There is one dealer not far from me that prides themselves in erring on the safe side with coins they have for sale😉. In my experience I would have to say I agree but would add a rider to that; I haven't tested this out for a good few years.😄

For me, this is a really important point. I can second the dealer mentioned - @LawrenceChard is indeed generous in his description of a coins condition. Okay, I'm only referring to one instance in my experience, and it wasn't a high value Gothic Crown, but it is still my experience that the coin came back from NGC above and beyond the described grade from the dealer. I think this is good practice in the industry. You keep the buyer happy and protect yourself from such disputes.

That being said, AU58 is not uncirculated but it can be close to it. With grading being subjective, it's so difficult to state that a dealer has exaggerated without seeing obvious inaccuracies in its condition. Sometimes graders can knock it down a few grades because of one contact mark that might be overlooked by another grader, just for example.

I find everyone's views quite interesting so far. @lxy70713 I do hope it reaches a satisfactory conclusion for you. The fact there is a lot of money involved between the grades mentioned is obviously important and it's really quite interesting as to Consumer Rights Act and all. I think if dealers accepted they should err on the side of cation then this wouldn't happen. 

[ArgentSmith]

2 minutes ago, SilverJacks said:

The fact there is a lot of money involved between the grades mentioned is obviously important

In which case why not buy a slabbed coin 🤷‍♂️

[lxy70713]

5 minutes ago, ArgentSmith said:

In which case why not buy a slabbed coin 🤷‍♂️

Would not ask for advice if I did

[lxy70713]

14 minutes ago, ArgentSmith said:

I wonder how many people contact dealers offering to square up 6 months later if a coin comes back from grading higher than expected?

Good point. But, not everyone is going to grade coins.

This is their profession to give an accurate grade to numismatic coin, If they like to call an Unc coin as About Unc to protect themselves, I do not see a reason why not?

If they want top ££, they could grade themself to be precise.

End of the day,  In every business, we all want happy customers. 

[AdamDutton]

Grading is subjective mate it’s not the dealers fault it really depends on the day whoes grading them

[Seasider]

17 minutes ago, lxy70713 said:

When we say a coin in Ms62 or Ms63 which means Unc condition in UK grading systems. There is no big arguement about it.

 

17 minutes ago, paulmerton said:

I think a reasonable way forward would be to propose having it graded again, and for the seller to agree to refund you in full (plus the cost of the grading) if it still falls below 60.

 

Would @lxy70713be happy with a 60 though?  For 1820 sovereigns there is a big jump in value from 61 to 62 and bigger jumps above that.

I confess I always thought MS 60 and above meant UNC but the guide in the back of the London Coins auction catalogues says UNC equals 62-63.  I am not sure what authority they have for that.

So where do you draw the line?  I suspect a lot of the discussion is because we think he may be dancing on the head of a pin.  But if NGC had come back to say the coin was not genuine I doubt anyone would say he should not claim his money back however long it had taken NGC to do their thing. 

[SilverJacks]

17 minutes ago, ArgentSmith said:

In which case why not buy a slabbed coin 🤷‍♂️

Good point. I guess they’re different markets though.
You buy a raw “uncirculated” coin, you should receive there or thereabouts. To me, the issue lies with how obvious any difference is between description and condition. If it’s only marginal, it’s open to dispute. If it’s obvious, different matter. But I get your point, you can avoid dispute by buying slabbed. A dealer can also avoid dispute by not squeezing every penny out of a sale

[lxy70713]

23 minutes ago, SilverJacks said:

For me, this is a really important point. I can second the dealer mentioned - @LawrenceChard is indeed generous in his description of a coins condition. Okay, I'm only referring to one instance in my experience, and it wasn't a high value Gothic Crown, but it is still my experience that the coin came back from NGC above and beyond the described grade from the dealer. I think this is good practice in the industry. You keep the buyer happy and protect yourself from such disputes.

That being said, AU58 is not uncirculated but it can be close to it. With grading being subjective, it's so difficult to state that a dealer has exaggerated without seeing obvious inaccuracies in its condition. Sometimes graders can knock it down a few grades because of one contact mark that might be overlooked by another grader, just for example.

I find everyone's views quite interesting so far. @lxy70713 I do hope it reaches a satisfactory conclusion for you. The fact there is a lot of money involved between the grades mentioned is obviously important and it's really quite interesting as to Consumer Rights Act and all. I think if dealers accepted they should err on the side of cation then this wouldn't happen. 

I agree AU58 is not uncirculated but close to it. Hence, I offered the dealer that I can send to PCGS for second opinion at my cost. But, he seems reluctant.

IMO, he does not seems have the confidence in both coins.

I will consider about the Consumer Rights Act, I hope we do not need to come to that. Thanks for the help.😀

[TeaTime]

I don't have a lot of dealings with slabbed coins but i have noticed this when it comes to grading - UK dealers tend to focus on the amount of wear on a coin when determining the grade. Extraneous marks on a coin are normally noted after the grade - i.e. 'AUnc  with small edge knock and light hairline to obverse field' or somesuch, whereas American grading tends to encompass all the imperfections to determine a grade.

Whilst i sympathise with the OP in regards the disappointing grading results i think it would be an uphill struggle to prove that the sellers grading was deliberately misleading.