Am I right to ask refund of high value coins due to inaccurate description??

[lxy70713]

I am looking for advice from any members who bought high value coins and decide to return the coin because the grade is not accurate.

About 5-6 months ago, I bought 2 high value coins from a reputable dealer which we had good dealings before. Both coins were sold to me with clear photos and with Unc condition in description.

Both coins were sent to NGC for grading in last December and rencently came back as PF58 and AU58 which was unexpected. 

Am I realistic to expect both coins to be PF62 and MS62, or as the dealer said grading is a very personal thing which he disagree the results from NGC and ask me hold on for a few years to get my money back?

Would anyone ask for a full refund if you were the buyers?

I was hoping to get any opinions from some dealers in the group for my own knowledge. 

Thanks in advance

Edited March 15, 2022 by lxy70713

[CollectForFun]

Interesting question. I wonder, on what (legal) basis you think you could request a refund? I doubt there's anything in the dealer's T&C that would support your case, but maybe there is?

The problem in my opinion is that you could (and should) have inspected the coins right after the purchase, or even prior to, in order to make sure that the goods conform to the description. The dealer can claim that apparently you were happy with the coins after their receipt, as you raised no objection then, and so tacitly agreed that they met your expectation of uncirculated condition.

I agree that grading is to some extent subjective and it is not uncommon to achieve different results from regrading the same coin with the same or a different grading company.

Out of curiosity, would you mind sharing the certificate numbers with us? It could be interesting to review the coins in question and discuss how various members of this forum perceive appropriateness of the assigned grade. I am sure there are many members with a lot of experience with graded coins over here so maybe you can find useful to find out what the general consensus would be...

 

[Paul]

Onus lies on you in my opinion, you choose to buy and the deal is done. 

As the Latin saying goes 'buyer beware' 

[Gordy]

2 hours ago, lxy70713 said:

I am looking for advice from any members who bought high value coins and decide to return the coin because the grade is not accurate.

About 5-6 months ago, I bought 2 high value coins from a reputable dealer which we had good dealings before. Both coins were sold to me with clear photos and with Unc condition in description.

Both coins were sent to NGC for grading in last December and rencently came back as PF58 and AU58 which was unexpected. 

Am I realistic to expect both coins to be PF62 and MS62, or as the dealer said grading is a very personal thing which he disagree the results from NGC and ask me hold on for a few years to get my money back?

Would anyone ask for a full refund if you were the buyers?

I was hoping to get any opinions from some dealers in the group for my own knowledge. 

Thanks in advance

The problem also lies in the fact that you bought them 5-6 months ago... so Sept/Oct and got them back from grading in December... the dealer could argue that they could have been damaged in between and the photos also may not have been clear enough to tell the quality.

He could argue and I'd probably agree with him that you should have used a loupe and checked them for quality as soon as they arrived and then if they were not of standard ask for a refund or replacement if possible

The timescale between purchase and asking for the refund is quite a big gap

You may not like the answers but it's another case of buyer beware i think in this case, lessons learned etc... 

[lxy70713]

Thanks for your contribute. Not sure what do you mean by legal basis. Both coins were sold to me in Unc condition. But they turned out to be Extra fine or extremely fine according the grading company.

I understand many people are not a big fan of these company, however, at least we have someone to rely on when it comes Numismatic coins which do not see it everyday.

I bought both coins based the my past dealing with the dealer as we as the condition of coins. I understand grade can be very subjective. 

But when it comes professional dealer, giving an accurate and non bias grade, it is not too much to ask. 

 

[lxy70713]

4 minutes ago, Gordy said:

The problem also lies in the fact that you bought them 5-6 months ago... so Sept/Oct and got them back from grading in December... the dealer could argue that they could have been damaged in between and the photos also may not have been clear enough to tell the quality.

He could argue and I'd probably agree with him that you should have used a loupe and checked them for quality as soon as they arrived and then if they were not of standard ask for a refund or replacement if possible

The timescale between purchase and asking for the refund is quite a big gap

You may not like the answers but it's another case of buyer beware i think in this case, lessons learned etc... 

I agree with you that it is taking too long asking for refund. It is indeed a lesson learned.

But, I would like to see people's thoughts on the inaccurate descripion from the dealer. Not sure if it helps both coins worth around 5K each.

These are not everyday coins, I won't be able to tell if there are any wear on the high points when I receive them in first place. 

[Paul]

You could always just buy already pre graded coins. As you mention grading is very subjective.

Who's to say the dealer might have been right and the ngc grader was having a bad day at work or was stressed.

I've cracked ms60 and 61s from slabs and they regraded higher 

When you talking a good four figures for the coins it is not small money to be taking risks with 'hopimg' they'll grade well

[CollectForFun]

Legal basis = whether you have any contractual or statutory right to request the refund or any other compensation from the dealer. If not, then it's only up to the dealer's good will.

By the way, AU58 is a grade for About uncirculated condition, which is the first grade below the Mint state grades, indicating only slight wear.

Anyway, I have two coins of the same type and year, one in MS60 and one in AU58 grade and I can tell the difference.

If you're not fine with sharing the certificate numbers for our reference, can you at least tell us what coins they are? I assume they are historic coins? At least, I would find it quite unusual if a modern proof coin was assigned 58 grade...

[TeaTime]

I would ask the question - were you happy with the coins before they were 'professionally' graded ? 

I once bought a sealed bank bag of uncirculated coins that looked as though they'd been used as dartboards. Divots, scratches and dents all over them.  Grading companies look for defects that have occurred after minting - but there's a lot of ways coins minted for general use can get damaged between being ejected from the dies and ending up in a bank bag. Technically they are still uncirculated (i.e. not put into general circulation) but can grade very poorly. 

You would really need to state what the coins are before anyone could give informed advice. Coins minted for general circulation can have defects that you would not expect to see on coins minted as collectables...

 

[lxy70713]

33 minutes ago, TeaTime said:

I would ask the question - were you happy with the coins before they were 'professionally' graded ? 

I once bought a sealed bank bag of uncirculated coins that looked as though they'd been used as dartboards. Divots, scratches and dents all over them.  Grading companies look for defects that have occurred after minting - but there's a lot of ways coins minted for general use can get damaged between being ejected from the dies and ending up in a bank bag. Technically they are still uncirculated (i.e. not put into general circulation) but can grade very poorly. 

You would really need to state what the coins are before anyone could give informed advice. Coins minted for general circulation can have defects that you would not expect to see on coins minted as collectables...

 

Yes, I was happy with coins when I received as I believe they are the grade I paid for.

No matter if you are a collector or stacker, you will not expect to lose money at the time of the transaction. 

One coin is gothic crown, the other coin is George III Sovereign

[lxy70713]

1 hour ago, CollectForFun said:

Legal basis = whether you have any contractual or statutory right to request the refund or any other compensation from the dealer. If not, then it's only up to the dealer's good will.

By the way, AU58 is a grade for About uncirculated condition, which is the first grade below the Mint state grades, indicating only slight wear.

Anyway, I have two coins of the same type and year, one in MS60 and one in AU58 grade and I can tell the difference.

If you're not fine with sharing the certificate numbers for our reference, can you at least tell us what coins they are? I assume they are historic coins? At least, I would find it quite unusual if a modern proof coin was assigned 58 grade...

I understand what you mean by legal basis. If we need to take it into consideration before purchase, it changed fun of the game.

In English grading system, About uncircualted(AU) is the next grade above EF.

I do not feel appropriate to share the cert number as I am still in contact with the dealer. One coin is gothic crown, the other coin is George III Sovereign

[lxy70713]

1 hour ago, Paul said:

You could always just buy already pre graded coins. As you mention grading is very subjective.

Who's to say the dealer might have been right and the ngc grader was having a bad day at work or was stressed.

I've cracked ms60 and 61s from slabs and they regraded higher 

When you talking a good four figures for the coins it is not small money to be taking risks with 'hopimg' they'll grade well

I agree with you that grading is very subjective. And I  heard about same thing with regarding.

I believe The English grading system is there before the American system. If a coin is marketed as Unc condition. It should get equivalent grade.

I didn't buy the coin under the market price or from an unrelible source. It seems people do not want to talk about it. Peronally I like to buy raw coins, But that does not mean I should take any risk if I buy from the right place. 

 

 

 

[LawrenceChard]

4 hours ago, lxy70713 said:

I am looking for advice from any members who bought high value coins and decide to return the coin because the grade is not accurate.

About 5-6 months ago, I bought 2 high value coins from a reputable dealer which we had good dealings before. Both coins were sold to me with clear photos and with Unc condition in description.

Both coins were sent to NGC for grading in last December and rencently came back as PF58 and AU58 which was unexpected. 

Am I realistic to expect both coins to be PF62 and MS62, or as the dealer said grading is a very personal thing which he disagree the results from NGC and ask me hold on for a few years to get my money back?

Would anyone ask for a full refund if you were the buyers?

I was hoping to get any opinions from some dealers in the group for my own knowledge. 

Thanks in advance

 

2 hours ago, lxy70713 said:

I understand many people are not a big fan of these company, however, at least we have someone to rely on when it comes Numismatic coins which do not see it everyday.

 

As other members have said, you have waited / delayed a long time before wanting to return them.

You did not originally state whether these were "numismatic" coins as opposed to bullion coins, but there was an implication of the former.

Most dealers allow returns within a reasonable time period, and UK law also gives you consumer rights in "distance" sales.

"Sales of this kind are known as 'distance selling'. You must offer a refund to customers if they've told you within 14 days of receiving their goods that they want to cancel. They have another 14 days to return the goods once they've told you."

So, you are well out of time.

You state you saw clear photos, so you were able to see the condition of the coins before you ordered them, and also to be able to compare the coins with the photos once you received them.

It is best to learn something about coins (or anything else for that matter), before you commit money to them.

You also say "many people are not a big fan of these company", but you omit to state which company. If you name them, you are more likely to get feedback.

It does sound as though the dealer exaggerated the grades, but this is very common, and not just with coins. As you have realised, grading is subjective.

You could always ask the dealer for a refund, but guess you will not have much success.

Sadly, you need to put this down to experience. It is also unfortunate that you may have been put off numismatics by this.

To add some perspective, we often get offered "collections", mainly of modern issues, where people have spent 6 figure amounts on coins from coin marketing companies, before they have realised that they were making a bad investment / getting ripped off. It is frustrating for us to be too late to try to help.

 

[Gordy]

3 hours ago, lxy70713 said:

I agree with you that it is taking too long asking for refund. It is indeed a lesson learned.

But, I would like to see people's thoughts on the inaccurate descripion from the dealer. Not sure if it helps both coins worth around 5K each.

These are not everyday coins, I won't be able to tell if there are any wear on the high points when I receive them in first place. 

Big bucks for sure, i can understand your concerns, i'd probably be miffed too, but even after doing this for quite some time I test and look at each purchase i make and it's just a habit i promised myself as most of my stuff is bought from trusted sources but if I stick to my routines I only have myself to blame if something goes amiss and we all know we have hit obstacles along the way and its a big hit that I couldnt cope with....

At least you know for future ref to give this dealer more than a second glance before parting with your hard earned..

[Pete]

5 hours ago, lxy70713 said:

I am looking for advice from any members who bought high value coins and decide to return the coin because the grade is not accurate.

About 5-6 months ago, I bought 2 high value coins from a reputable dealer which we had good dealings before. Both coins were sold to me with clear photos and with Unc condition in description.

From what I have read on this topic  - 
Firstly the cost of some coins can have very little to do with their condition but more their rarity.
Of course the same coin in higher grades will cost even more.
Just because a coin is uncirculated does not infer it will grade high - as perhaps expected.
If you purchased based on good quality photographs then obtaining a lower grade than expected is disappointing for sure but not the fault of the dealer who was not selling a graded coin - or have I misunderstood ?

[SilverJacks]

It's unfortunate that the submission process takes so long these days. In regard to the grade, I think the onus is still on the buyer to decide whether they agree with the description before submitting them for grading. Dealers are also susceptible to disappointment since there's an inherent risk with raw coins. 

However, supposing you graded a coin that came back not genuine, that imo would be very much different and I would expect a no quibble refund from a reputable dealer.

I wonder though, what if a coin is described as problem free and then comes back as a details grade. Is there ground for complaint there? Would describing a coin as "uncirculated" imply that it is problem free?

Maybe creating a dialogue with the dealer along the lines of "Is this problem free?" or more to the point of the OP, "if this comes back lower grade than expected, would you offer a part refund to match the grade?" I'd expect many dealers wouldn't entertain such an agreement. But I also think there are some that would do so, depending on circumstances and relationship between buyer & seller. I don't see it as unreasonable to ask in advance.

[sovereignsteve]

There are a few things here worthy of note.

Most dealers, even reputable ones, will at some time "overgrade" coins they are selling. The really good, experienced ones should be able to get these things right almost all the time. Many less experienced, knowledgeable and perhaps less trustworthy ones will almost always get it wrong.

Too many sellers of all types are prone to adding an "uncirculated" label to any coin that looks nice and shiny!

There is one dealer not far from me that prides themselves in erring on the safe side with coins they have for sale😉. In my experience I would have to say I agree but would add a rider to that; I haven't tested this out for a good few years.😄

The OP is in the UK therefore we can assume the dealer they purchased from will be also. Therefore it is a good assumption they are using the UK grading system which is generally less sensitive than the US Sheldon system used by NGC and PCGS.

US grade 58 is generally regarded as the start of the equivalent EF UK grade, which approximates to 58 - 61. A true uncirculated UK graded coin should therefore achieve at least a 62 at the 2 major US graders.

The problem is there isn't an official conversion table for the UK and US grading systems. Also the US graders place more emphasis on the fields and eye appeal than does the UK system.

As to the legality of the OP's situation. I am no expert but I would guess if a coin was described inaccurately and especially in a way to overstate it's condition, this would be illegal in the eyes of consumer law. I think it would be deemed irrelevant that the buyer had a chance to inspect the goods beforehand as they wouldn't be expected to have the same level of expertise in these matters as the dealer.

Whether there is any time limit on claiming a refund, I wouldn't know the exact figure but in the case of "fit for purpose", this would be many months, possibly 6 or 12. In the case of fraudulent description, it would probably be more.

I would guess the problem would be proving the case. As it would likely be a civil matter, the test would be "on the balance of probabilities". Maybe getting several reputable dealers to disagree with the sellers grading description would be enough? I doubt the evidence of the NGC grade achieved would be sufficient in itself, in the absence of a direct conversion table.

As is it increasingly common these days for top coins to be graded at NGC or PCGS, I would be surprised if a reputable dealer wouldn't take notice of these grades. I would imagine they would be mindful of how they would grade with TPGs when describing their coins for sale. Therefore I think the catchall excuse of "grading is subjective" is pretty lame.

As to whether the OP should request a refund, this would depend on the assessment of the price paid and what the current value would be at the achieved NGC grade. Also how difficult it would be to replace the coins at that price in the current market.

 

[Arganto]

I would imagine using a phrase such as "a potentially high grade coin" would be safer for any seller, private or business. Sitting on the sidelines of these grading discussions it seems evident that grading can be hit or miss, and the difference of a few points on a scale can mean ecstacy or despair. I would not want to risk a complaint if my estimation of a grade was countered by the outcome of grading.

What I would say from a personal stand point is that if I was buying two coins that totalled 10K I'd be taking a drive or a train journey (or sending my personal manservant Jeffrey) after speaking to the dealer on the phone to ensure they were secured pending inspection. Photographs these days are top notch but you won't beat seeing something up close.

If I ever came to own a gothic crown or George III sovereign I wouldn't want them in a plastic coffin...I would, wait, touch them! 🤯

[Britannia47]

I am curious to know the date of the George III Sovereign with a £5000+ price-tag? There may be a rarity/over condition factor here with AU58.

 

[paulmerton]

11 hours ago, LawrenceChard said:

Most dealers allow returns within a reasonable time period, and UK law also gives you consumer rights in "distance" sales.

"Sales of this kind are known as 'distance selling'. You must offer a refund to customers if they've told you within 14 days of receiving their goods that they want to cancel. They have another 14 days to return the goods once they've told you."

So, you are well out of time.

The 14 day time limit is only relevant if there isn't anything wrong with the coins.

If something is not as described, you would in fact have up to 6 years to make a claim!

However, after 6 months of ownership, the onus would be on the buyer to prove that the coins were not as described at the time of purchase.

Sufficient proof could include showing that the current state of the coins exactly matches the photos provided before purchase - that would demonstrate the coins haven't reduced in quality as a result or mishandling and so on during ownership. I believe it would be unreasonable to dismiss a claim by saying that the buyer had seen photos prior to purchase, or that they've had ample opportunity to inspect the coins in hand, as the buyer cannot reasonably be expected to self-assess a coin's grade as accurately as the experts who have graded it. Having been in possession of the coin for days, months or even <6 years would therefore have no impact on the claim.

I think the crux of this rests solely on whether there is a clear discrepancy between the original description (Unc) and the gradings (58). I know very little about grading, but https://www.ngccoin.com/coin-grading/grading-scale/ says the threshold for a coin to be considered uncirculated is 60, so it would seem to me that the buyer has a reasonable claim here.

I have no doubt that the buyer will be able to get something done about it if they can prove the coins are still in the same condition that they arrived in.

[lxy70713]

12 hours ago, Gordy said:

Big bucks for sure, i can understand your concerns, i'd probably be miffed too, but even after doing this for quite some time I test and look at each purchase i make and it's just a habit i promised myself as most of my stuff is bought from trusted sources but if I stick to my routines I only have myself to blame if something goes amiss and we all know we have hit obstacles along the way and its a big hit that I couldnt cope with....

At least you know for future ref to give this dealer more than a second glance before parting with your hard earned..

I agree. I like to build relationship with people. 

As mentioned, we had a good dealings before until now. It is my fault as well did not ask for second opinion at the time. 

If a reputable dealer cannot get an accurate description then I will definitely having second thoughts to deal with him again.

[lxy70713]

9 minutes ago, paulmerton said:

The 14 day time limit is only relevant if there isn't anything wrong with the coins.

If something is not as described, you would in fact have up to 6 years to make a claim!

However, after 6 months of ownership, the onus would be on the buyer to prove that the coins were not as described at the time of purchase.

Sufficient proof could include showing that the current state of the coins exactly matches the photos provided before purchase - that would demonstrate the coins haven't reduced in quality as a result or mishandling and so on during ownership. I believe it would be unreasonable to dismiss a claim by saying that the buyer had seen photos prior to purchase, or that they've had ample opportunity to inspect the coins in hand, as the buyer cannot reasonably be expected to self-assess a coin's grade as accurately as the experts who have graded it. Having been in possession of the coin for days, months or even <6 years would therefore have no impact on the claim.

I think the crux of this rests solely on whether there is a clear discrepancy between the original description (Unc) and the gradings (58). I know very little about grading, but https://www.ngccoin.com/coin-grading/grading-scale/ says the threshold for a coin to be considered uncirculated is 60, so it would seem to me that the buyer has a reasonable claim here.

I have no doubt that the buyer will be able to get something done about it if they can prove the coins are still in the same condition that they arrived in.

Thanks for the input. I am really appreciated.

I am totally with you as a buyer. I do mean to take advantage of the dealer. Especially the dealer has been 20 years in the business and a member of BNTA

There is a clear difference between EF and Unc grade as well as in £££

A few members have pointed out I should check the grade myself, However, when you have a Numasmatic coin which you do not see everyday it is very hard for someone like me to tell the grade. If it is that easy, there won't be many coins graded with poor apprearance.

[lxy70713]

3 hours ago, Britannia47 said:

I am curious to know the date of the George III Sovereign with a £5000+ price-tag? There may be a rarity/over condition factor here with AU58.

 

It was on average how much I paid. For the George III - I paid between £4250 - £4500 it is an open 2. 
I believe I paid a fair market price to the dealer for the Unc condition, but it turned out to be a AU58.

People can agure about MS62-MS63, but AU58 -MS62 has jumped 2 grade. 

[lxy70713]

4 hours ago, Liam84 said:

I would imagine using a phrase such as "a potentially high grade coin" would be safer for any seller, private or business. Sitting on the sidelines of these grading discussions it seems evident that grading can be hit or miss, and the difference of a few points on a scale can mean ecstacy or despair. I would not want to risk a complaint if my estimation of a grade was countered by the outcome of grading.

What I would say from a personal stand point is that if I was buying two coins that totalled 10K I'd be taking a drive or a train journey (or sending my personal manservant Jeffrey) after speaking to the dealer on the phone to ensure they were secured pending inspection. Photographs these days are top notch but you won't beat seeing something up close.

If I ever came to own a gothic crown or George III sovereign I wouldn't want them in a plastic coffin...I would, wait, touch them! 🤯

Hi Liam,

Thanks for your input. "a potentially high grade coin" does not sounds professional from a reputable dealer. That only means the grade is not high enough or it has some problem IMO.

I agree with you to see the coins before purchase. As I had a good dealing with the dealer before, hence I trusted his description is accurate.

I only send high grade coins for grading to protect the coin and the investment. 

 

[LawrenceChard]

10 hours ago, sovereignsteve said:

There are a few things here worthy of note.

Most dealers, even reputable ones, will at some time "overgrade" coins they are selling. The really good, experienced ones should be able to get these things right almost all the time. Many less experienced, knowledgeable and perhaps less trustworthy ones will almost always get it wrong.

Too many sellers of all types are prone to adding an "uncirculated" label to any coin that looks nice and shiny!

There is one dealer not far from me that prides themselves in erring on the safe side with coins they have for sale😉. In my experience I would have to say I agree but would add a rider to that; I haven't tested this out for a good few years.😄

The OP is in the UK therefore we can assume the dealer they purchased from will be also. Therefore it is a good assumption they are using the UK grading system which is generally less sensitive than the US Sheldon system used by NGC and PCGS.

US grade 58 is generally regarded as the start of the equivalent EF UK grade, which approximates to 58 - 61. A true uncirculated UK graded coin should therefore achieve at least a 62 at the 2 major US graders.

The problem is there isn't an official conversion table for the UK and US grading systems. Also the US graders place more emphasis on the fields and eye appeal than does the UK system.

As to the legality of the OP's situation. I am no expert but I would guess if a coin was described inaccurately and especially in a way to overstate it's condition, this would be illegal in the eyes of consumer law. I think it would be deemed irrelevant that the buyer had a chance to inspect the goods beforehand as they wouldn't be expected to have the same level of expertise in these matters as the dealer.

Whether there is any time limit on claiming a refund, I wouldn't know the exact figure but in the case of "fit for purpose", this would be many months, possibly 6 or 12. In the case of fraudulent description, it would probably be more.

I would guess the problem would be proving the case. As it would likely be a civil matter, the test would be "on the balance of probabilities". Maybe getting several reputable dealers to disagree with the sellers grading description would be enough? I doubt the evidence of the NGC grade achieved would be sufficient in itself, in the absence of a direct conversion table.

As is it increasingly common these days for top coins to be graded at NGC or PCGS, I would be surprised if a reputable dealer wouldn't take notice of these grades. I would imagine they would be mindful of how they would grade with TPGs when describing their coins for sale. Therefore I think the catchall excuse of "grading is subjective" is pretty lame.

As to whether the OP should request a refund, this would depend on the assessment of the price paid and what the current value would be at the achieved NGC grade. Also how difficult it would be to replace the coins at that price in the current market.

 

I was going to defend whoever said "grading is subjective", but I see it was me!

I am not defending the anonymous (so far) dealer, but "grading is subjective" is not an excuse, it's a fact.

Sure the American grading companies would have us all believe it is highly scientific, but I am not convinced.